Ancient Language of Universal Symbols Discovered

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by LogarockHere something for you.
The southwestern Indian mythical personage of Kokopelli. ... A full study will show that Kokopelli is none other than a regional Pan interpretation.

Couldn't you legitimately say that Kokopelli and Pan are both reflections of a very common assemblege of attributes? I'm sure that the Pied Piper, come to think of it, is yet another variation as is Loki. You also have Sun gods all over the place, but that doesn't connect any further dots beyond perhaps a proto-religion. It doesn't shout diffusion.

Nice call though, I hadn't thought of the connection.

When taken as a whole Kokopelli, Pashupati (Sanskrit: Paśupati), Pan and the Egyptian Min are far to similar in attribute and nuance in art and history to be considered anything but the same historical and ancient representation.

They certainly did not evolve locally and independently. No one would argue this in the eastern cases of development. But suddenly when Pan is found venerated but the southwestern US tribes in the form of Kokopelli there is confusion.

Originally posted by Logarock But suddenly when Pan is found venerated but the southwestern US tribes in the form of Kokopelli there is confusion.

Simply because there is no solid connection. Your other examples are not isolated by geography. Is there a proto-connection? A neolithic common source? Why not? But Greeks (or ancient Indians) in North America influencing the natives of the South West?

Sounds like Kokopelli to me.

Originally posted by Logarock
Anyone reading here should note hearts opening line, it says it all.

Anyway, anyone one that can gain a degree at Harvard should be given an ear even if they want to do study outside their field.

Sure, like Ted "Unabomber" Kaczynski - Class of 1962. Maybe you should seek his advice on how to better interact with society.

Or perhaps you'd prefer the sage wisdom of Jonathan (Taylor Thomas) Weiss, class of '04 concerning the current state of global warming? He could ask Tim "the Tool Man" Taylor for you.

Not feeling it yet? Then I have to assume that you would seek the advice of George W. Bush, 1975 MBA graduate of the Harvard Business School, concerning civil liberties and the Constitution?

Do you feel the same about Yale?

Originally posted by LogarockAs you know fields of study overlap and people that can master one field surly have the capacity to master another.

Please point out the "overlap" between Epigraphics and Marine Biology.

Originally posted by LogarockHeart here believes one should be a good little boy and stay in one field and your crap if you go outside and challenge school thinking in another. Hell Einstein was a high school flunky!

Logacrock believes anything any idiot tells him, as long as it meshes with his self-imposed ignorant daydream of a world view.

And he lies very easily as well, as evidenced by his mindless repetition of a myth about Einsteins' school days.

Originally posted by LogarockAnyway Fell did jump the gun once and lured into working on a fake. He was probably set up. He later retracted what he said about it and publicly acknowledged the example was a fake, made by some locals looking for glory.

Link, please.

Originally posted by LogarockHeart presides like an BEAST at the gateway of knowledge. He is but a little peep squeak with a big bark and little bite and easy foil to a veteran warrior of truth.

Logacrock has blatantly and overtly refused to even consider the actual, measurable facts of a situation right here in this thread, not to mention in numerous others.

Logacrock wishes to remain in an ignorant stupor, and that's certainly an option for life. There is nothing anyone but Logacrock can do about this, and I doubt many here will hold their breath waiting for this self-defeating and childish attitude to change.

Harte

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Just because it's been published, doesn't mean it's true. And just because somebody says you're mistaken, that doesn't imply a conspiracy. Even here. Capiche?

Dude I am sorry you think you have to tell me this. Thats should be the first thing anybody learns. Your really not talking to a fool. Not talking about Von Daniken here.

But moving away from Fell what about the others? The entire case cant be laid on Fell but he is the lightning rod these days. I didn't know if I mentioned any of the other researchers in this area that anyone would have recognized them.

reply to post by Harte



Dude this isn't really about the issue at hand is it? Rhetorical. This entire thread is a set up and I smelled it right off. Why dont YOU come out of the closet? I mean you know where I am at whats holding you back? Control? You have little as it is in real terms. My door is wide open.

But just to humor you politicians are politicians wherever they come from. Just like your type.

What if,
(some of)your reactions are true?

universal "sign" language passed on throughout history,mankind and all the continents
Ancient believe systems that show lot's of simmularity's.
All gods came from above, the great flood , giants ,etc.?(quite a lot more, if not all)

previous races.... date back to about(from hystorical writings/buildings NOW known)10-15000 years BC

What about pangea(?)(first world continent)

IF there was a cataclysmic(?) event every ±26000 years (just like the one "predicted" for the end/reset of the mayan long count calender)
AND there was a pre-pre-pre-pre... civilisation

And "we" the world population where ones concentrated on one single continent, AND this event takes place AND caused the "continental drift theory".(more like global push)

And if there were alien contacts then(after this event), just like now?,as there seem to be lots and lots of sightings all around
like more cropcircles, more ufo's, and with the latest archeology it seems like an abundance of knowledge is beeing (RE)discovered.

Long standing theories become hoaxes of the past
How about chinese,indian,hispanic,white man,arabic,black man,giants etc?, where are the "missing links" for ALL of them
there should be "distinct remnants" there(shouldn't there?)

(sf mode)
"we" as predecessors/creators of the human race came in a large spaceship to colonize this wealthy planet, "we" were part of a multi-cultural mission(many aliens at "meetings" point to a different origin), our ship crash-landed, our destress-call would take many many years to reach home, we got into old cultural and religious fights, we "scattered" around the earth as "gods", we eventualy got rescued, our crossbread "workforce" was abandoned, colonisation would take to much effort now.....
the resulting human race went on with their own lives, worshipping(warshipping?)our gods whom went back to their realm in the sky, we discover we might have had previous developed races on earth, etc.
(end sf mode)

recent archeological science EXPLAINS a lot "accepted by the masses" theories to be wrong or incomplete(not completed yet?)

Lets not forget that in 1905(?) "we" found the sumerian clay-tablets with more planets depicted than known(remmembered?) to mankind at that time

back on topic....

Some usage of similar pictoring(?) is logical, like circles and such

However, the worldwide usage of;
*gods that came from above
*pyramid alike structures
*huge signes for above(like white horses,naztec)
*winged-disks
*the "tail" about the great flood(and noah in the wail?)
*starmap alignment of buildings
*the movement of "SUPER"LARGE blocks
*large ships
and more and more newly discovered archological sites pre-dating the ones found before them

maybe the earliest "human race" somehow got scattered around the globe

When i read all the presented information on this and other sites i think great things for the human race are in our future, on the other hand our future could be real short as well...

A lot is happening/changing nowadays
Never before in human hystory "we" now have a "overview on hystory" made possible by "the evolution" off mankind At least with MORE information "ON" site than ever before, through the internet's library/information function, and through new insights "last week" never thought possible, we could investigate human history more openminded and liberated from pre-conceptions.(i hope)

keep on going, keep data flowing
seppsoft

[edit on 4-3-2009 by seppsoft]

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Logarock But suddenly when Pan is found venerated but the southwestern US tribes in the form of Kokopelli there is confusion.

Simply because there is no solid connection. Your other examples are not isolated by geography. Is there a proto-connection? A neolithic common source? Why not? But Greeks (or ancient Indians) in North America influencing the natives of the South West?

Sounds like Kokopelli to me.

This characterization has its roots in the very earliest of Egyptian and Indus Valley history. Its also present in Mesopotamia. The Kokopelli representation has all of the central attributes in art and interpretation. Even nuance. Thats the solid connection.

Archeologist (Slifer and Duffield) say for whatever reasons that the Kokopelli character didn't emerge in the southwest until early AD. This may or may not be true.

What is true is that the nuance of the Kokopelli character show a Mediterranean influence rather than the old Indus type although the main attributes in all cases are present.

Even the word Pella (Greek: Πέλλα) for "stone" is consistent with Pelli not only in name by with phallus. Min understood to be the source of Pan is ever present with erect phallus and twin feather as are representations of Kokopelli.

Kokopelli is noted for being able to invoke sudden alarm and shock as does Pan thus the word "panic".

Min, Bull of the Great Phallus,
...
You are the Great Male, the owner of all females.
The Bull who is unites with those of the sweet love, of beautiful face and of painted eyes,
Victorious sovereign among the Gods who inspires fear in the Ennead.
...
The goddesses are glad, seeing your perfection.

www.touregypt.net...


Min's perfection being his phallus and his ability to seduce women and with his "pipe" and stimulate the creatures during the breading season. These are attributes that Pan and Kokopelli posses in both artistic representation and oral traditions.

More..

Even the Hopi have a mountain sheep kachina they call Pang. One has only to spend a few moments the Pan association with sheep in Greek mythology. Not to mention then the very obvious Pan and Pang names.

Pang is often as is Kokopelli seen with shepherds staff and exposed erect phallus, feathered headdress like Min.



[edit on 4-3-2009 by Logarock]

reply to post by Logarock


I didn't bring Fell up. I responded to a reccomendation to consider his bogus and fraudulent work.

Originally posted by Logarock

Anyway Fell did jump the gun once and lured into working on a fake. He was probably set up. He later retracted what he said about it and publicly acknowledged the example was a fake, made by some locals looking for glory.

Link please

Harte

I will givew you this first.


According to the editor of the Review of Archaeology, D.H. Kelley is "an epigrapher of considerable reputation." And what is the subject of this respected journal and reputable epigrapher? B. Fell's work on North American inscriptions!

Kelley is concerned by the strange lack of supporting archeological evidence at the inscription sites, but as the following quotation demonstrates, he dares to admit an ancient Celtic presence in North America.

"I have no personal doubts that some of the inscriptions which have been reported are genuine Celtic ogham. Despite my occasional harsh criticism of Fell's treatment of individual inscriptions, it should be recognized that without Fell's work there would be no ogham problem to perplex us. We need to ask not only what Fell has done wrong in his epigraphy, but also where we have gone wrong as archaeologists in not recognizing such an extensive European presence in the New World."

www.science-frontiers.com...

As for your link I have discussed this in depth with the chapter president that handled the Kentuky Ogam. It was not discovered by Fell or by members of the Midwest Chapter. Fell came out and looked it over and said then that it looked fresh. Berry Fell himself came out against it as fake before anyone did. I personally have seen examples of the fake Ogam stones and they were really a hoot. I have also talked to Fell before he died. He ended up having to censure the Midwest chapter over the ogam and burrows cave bull crap. I really dont need a link but will try to find one just for you.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by Logarock]

reply to post by Harte



"Among the embarrassments that Kelley and other critics often use against Fell are a series of Celtic ogham inscriptions that were sent to Fell from McKee, Kentucky, in 1988. He dutifully translated the scripts, which later proved to be forgeries. Although Fell was the one to spot that they were fake, the damage was done".

www.theatlantic.com...

reply to post by Harte



You need to give me a link to Berry Fell getting kicked out of his own organization.

Originally posted by Logarock
When taken as a whole Kokopelli, Pashupati (Sanskrit: Paśupati), Pan and the Egyptian Min are far to similar in attribute and nuance in art and history to be considered anything but the same historical and ancient representation.

Well, I'd certainly argue it. Pan/Min is still a bit of a stretch, since Min gets lumped in with Horus long before the Greeks came up with Pan. The Greeks called him Tiby, not Pan. Pan was an Arcadian god.

But suddenly when Pan is found venerated but the southwestern US tribes in the form of Kokopelli there is confusion.

Pan isn't a human hunchback, wasn't known for getting whole villages of women pregnant, didn't bring joy, didn't carry unborn children in a pack on is back. Kokopelli didn't bring states of trance-ecstacy, wasn't half human, and showed up some 1,000 years after the first appearance of Pan.

By then, however, the Greeks were a Christian nation.

reply to post by Byrd



Some of the things you say are correct, some are misunderstood. As far as Pan and Kokopelli you may want to consider digging deeper. Like hundreds of pages.
You have to skeletalize a study like this and back up a little. So Kokopelli was a hunchback and Pan wasn't. That may end up showing more of a connection that you might imagine when you get back closer to the source.

Originally posted by Byrd

Well, I'd certainly argue it. Pan/Min is still a bit of a stretch, since Min gets lumped in with Horus long before the Greeks came up with Pan. The Greeks called him Tiby, not Pan. Pan was an Arcadian god.


Well Min getting mixed up with Horus doesn't make Pan/Min a stretch. Any first year student of Egyptology will tell you about the mix and matching of aspects that took place in Egyptian mysticism over the centuries. Min did have a separate fertility aspect representable for a Pan of Kokopelli comparison. As well most Egyptologists consider Min to be the source of Pan.

Yes Pan was an Arcadian God. The Hopi and Navajo had separate names of Kokopelli as well. The aspects in the main are basically the same in both cases. Thats what to look for.



....

Hiya everyone.

Petroglyphs anyone?

[edit on 4-3-2009 by Cygnus_Hunter]

Originally posted by Logarock
IAccording to the editor of the Review of Archaeology, D.H. Kelley is "an epigrapher of considerable reputation." And what is the subject of this respected journal and reputable epigrapher? B. Fell's work on North American inscriptions!

Kelley is concerned by the strange lack of supporting archeological evidence at the inscription sites, but as the following quotation demonstrates, he dares to admit an ancient Celtic presence in North America.

The "strange lack of supporting archaeological evidence..." is the crux of the matter, isn't it?

Originally posted by Logarock"I have no personal doubts that some of the inscriptions which have been reported are genuine Celtic ogham. Despite my occasional harsh criticism of Fell's treatment of individual inscriptions, it should be recognized that without Fell's work there would be no ogham problem to perplex us. We need to ask not only what Fell has done wrong in his epigraphy, but also where we have gone wrong as archaeologists in not recognizing such an extensive European presence in the New World."

I would ask Dr. Kelly to provide any solid evidence at all for this so called "extensive European presence in the New World" before I agree that we should ask ourselves "where we have gone wrong."

At any rate, Kelly and I agree, where is the evidence?
Also, nobody (until now) has suggested researching the work of D.H. Kelly. I believe Fell was the subject.

This is what Kelly also says about Fell:

"Fell's work [contains] major academic sins, the three worst being distortion of data, inadequate acknowledgment of predecessors, and lack of presentation of alternative views."

Note the "external source" tags I used. You should use these when you quote from another site.
The source of the above is your own link (The Atlantic.)

Originally posted by LogarockAs for your link I have discussed this in depth with the chapter president that handled the Kentuky Ogam.

Please point out in my link where it mentions any ogham in Kentucky.

Here's a page for people that want to know more. It includes my previous link on it:
LINK

Here's a couple more:
link2
Fell and the Los Lunas fraud

I agree with Kelly that without Fell, we might not have the "ogham problem" to perplex us. However, one should also note that there is no real evidence for any "ogham problem" in the first place. Until there is, I maintain that there is no "ogham problem."

Also, in consideration of the idea that Fell has caused some people to look at things they weren't looking at before. Precisely the same thing could be said about Erich VonDaniken and Graham Hancock. Both of these so-called "researchers" are nothing but con men, but they do make some people look into ancient history that may never have done so had they not read the fantasies of these two writers (among others.)

Originally posted by Logarock
You need to give me a link to Berry Fell getting kicked out of his own organization.

Here's a quote from and a link to a pro-Fell paper:

Every once in great while mankind is blessed with genius. Barry Fell was one of these. Sadly, his revelations are not well liked by the establishment. Even the Epigraphic Society, which he founded, has turned their backs to him and his works. Indeed, they do their best to erase him from memory and with a collective vow of silence, refuse to acknkowledge his genius.

In Praise of Barry Fell
I admit that it doesn't specifically state he was booted out. Perhaps I misremembered - I don't have time to look further on this right now.

It does state that his own society which, during his life consisted primarily of his own disciples (amateurs that wanted to believe,) no longer is so enthusiastic in their support of Fell's lousy (academically speaking) work. In fact, they do everything but repudiate it.

This is because much of what Fell claimed has been shown to be wrong. It's also been shown (in many cases) that, had Fell worked in the manner he should have (and he knew that he wasn't doing this - he knew the proper way but chose on his own not to operate that way,) most of the mistakes he made he could have uncovered himself, prior to publishing them and making himself look like a fool.

Anyway, like I said, my responses here are to the recommendation to research Fell's work. That is a mistake. I'd suggest Kelly, or the others you mentioned. Anyone but Fell.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


I appreciate your response. However it does leave the unlearned reader here with the idea that there is no supporting evidence, if so very weak at best, for the migration over the years of people from the east. Kelly is large in his field. It s no surprise that he sees weakness in supporting evidence considering he has been spoiled working in central America.

Back to Fell. He was never removed from his post as founder of his society. He did have, which is more in line with what you posted, several of his close associates distance themselves after his death. In fact Brain Dix seen in several photos in Fells books, ended up rather hard of Fell. Dix may be correct to some degree but Dix does owe Fell for the public exposure. Dix didn't consider Fells methodologies very disciplined.

McGlone has distanced himself as have some others.

My opinion here is that this is somewhat like what Egyptologists have done to Budge. They acknowledge his great contribution effort but have been quietly putting him to rest. Much of the disagreement with Fell by Irish Ogam specialists is simply one of translation but not with the claim of Ogam in America or Celtics in America.

So I believe your condemnation of Fell as a con is unwarranted.

Originally posted by Logarock I believe your condemnation of Fell as a con is unwarranted.

There is a difference between consciously committing a fraud, and simple ineptitude.

And there are lots of examples of unusual conclusions reached by well respected scientists.

But in the end, you need to stop focussing on the researcher and consider, instead, the evidence.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Logarock
IAccording to the editor of the Review of Archaeology, D.H. Kelley is "an epigrapher of considerable reputation." And what is the subject of this respected journal and reputable epigrapher? B. Fell's work on North American inscriptions!

Kelley is concerned by the strange lack of supporting archeological evidence at the inscription sites, but as the following quotation demonstrates, he dares to admit an ancient Celtic presence in North America.

The "strange lack of supporting archaeological evidence..." is the crux of the matter, isn't it?


At any rate, Kelly and I agree, where is the evidence?
Also, nobody (until now) has suggested researching the work of D.H. Kelly. I believe Fell was the subject.

Harte

Yes but please explain just what supporting evidence is conspicuously missing? You and he say that like there is some 10 point test to verify any ogam inscription by a multitude of outside local evidence. I would expect that from Kelly who never has to question the context of his work or where hes at.