Dark matter galaxy evidence of type 3 civilization?

I just came across an interesting article about mini galaxies that orbit the milky way.

www.dailygalaxy.com...

They mentioned one galaxy in particular:

"We now know about two dozen of these satellite galaxies. One of the most recent is "Segue 1", uncovered by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS), whose extremely low light-to-mass ratio makes it a particularly significant cosmic find. Despite having a mass of a million suns it is nowhere near as luminous as astronomers would expect, with only a couple of hundred stars visible."

So here is my question. Could this galaxy in fact be the home to a type 3 civilization who proceeded to cover over 99% of it with Dyson Spheres?

How can anyone tell what's going on in another galaxy? We can speculate until the cows come home but we wont be any closer to knowing anything. Dyson Sphere's are still the stuff of Star Trek as far as I'm concerned. Nice idea but I'd like to see someone make one! lol!

Just imagine the sheer amount of planets you would have to destroy just to get the materials to make one! Anything is possible in theory but the probability of a Dyson Sphere that would encase a whole sun (even a small one) is totally improbable.

IRM

[edit on 1/3/09 by InfaRedMan]

reply to post by FortyTwo


Whhaaaaaaa????

How credible do you think this may be? The article was thin on details.

Seems to be part of the puzzle, perhaps, about WHY our Galaxy rotates at the speed it does.....I've seen science documentaries that try to explain that the math isn't quite right, re: the rotational velocity of the Galaxy.

In other words, the observable mass (that being the stuff we can see, because it shines....aka stars) and, by inference, the assumption that there are planetary systems around those stars....seems to be missing some mass, at least the mass needed to explain how the Galaxy rotates.

'dark matter' (good name for a rock group, dontcha think?)

Reason for theorizing its existence is to explain this anomaly. Of course, for now, 'dark matter' remains a mystery....science marches on!!!

reply to post by InfaRedMan


InfaRed (where, exactly is THAT on the spectrum???...teasing)

I missed the Dyson's Sphere reference in the linky......but, of course, I know what it is....or, at least, the concept proposed by Dyson.

And, yes, the amount of material needed to construct such a design is, well staggering. Better to develop long-range space flight, IMHO.

For the OP.....and everyone else....you do know what a 'type 3' civilization would be, correct?

For comparison, WE aren't even a 'type 0.5'.....maybe too harsh, but those of you know what I mean. I am a child of Sputnik....just in my meager lifetime since then, we've accomplished much, but Humans have never left the Earth-Moon system. We still have a long, long way to go.....

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Seems to be part of the puzzle, perhaps, about WHY our Galaxy rotates at the speed it does.....I've seen science documentaries that try to explain that the math isn't quite right, re: the rotational velocity of the Galaxy.

Didn't some scientists just come out and say the the galaxy is rotating much faster than originally 'thought'? Personally, I think all these calculations amount to what will only be seen as a major mistake in years to come. I forsee some major "whoops" moments and red faces because the math is so completely wrong that they had to invent such exotic matter to fill in the gaps of their 'knowledge'.

'dark matter' (good name for a rock group, dontcha think?)

Hell Yeah!

Reason for theorizing its existence is to explain this anomaly. Of course, for now, 'dark matter' remains a mystery....science marches on!!!

Well... they say that science progresses one death at a time - in regards to the old boys that maintain the status quo.

IRM

[edit on 1/3/09 by InfaRedMan]

Originally posted by FortyTwo


So here is my question. Could this galaxy in fact be the home to a type 3 civilization who proceeded to cover over 99% of it with Dyson Spheres?

No, because then it would have the luminosity of the normal galaxy, except it would emit in the infrared.

Thermodynamics still works, and even superfantastically powerful civilizations who can cover their stars will have to dump the waste heat.

In regards to Dyson spheres being nearly impossible or not realistic.

They can be thin, and they would be made by a type 2 civilization, We are a 0.3.

Think of it like this master nano-tech create nanotech solar collectors or something similar (we are already learning to make nano solar collectors) then have them replicate with the materials on Venus or mars and now you have a dyson sphere collecting all the suns energy and able to harness it for own devious pleasure (jk mine)



Now regards to the OP, though possible I think it could also mean that the galaxy could be filled with black holes.

Interesting hypothesis desolate cancer. As for mbkennel, I don't know a lot about physics but perhaps you do. Would we still be able to detect the waste heat in infrared if they had machines which were 99.9999999999999% efficient?

reply to post by Desolate Cancer


Are you referring to a Dyson Sphere that encases the entire sun? Your language is somewhat ambiguous. Even if it was thin, and even if there was nano technology employed, the sheer volume of material required is astronomical. The sphere itself would have to been many times the size of the sun and would probably have to encase Mercury.

When you talk of replicating, I suspect your talking of nanobots? Also this Dyson Sphere and it's nanobots would have to be immune to solar flares/radiation. The metals employed would also have to withstand incredible heats on a permanent basis . Right now the only nanobots that can do that stuff are on Stargate and they're fictional.

When you talk of type 3 civilizations, this is pure conjecture and still in the realms of sci-fi (unless proven otherwise).

Things we don't know:
1. That they even exist!
2. That a type 3 civilization would even have the abilities you assume they would.

My feelings are that advanced civilizations wouldn't need a Dyson Sphere. They've probably gone way beyond the need for solar energy.

I'm sorry but nothing you have said is proof of anything other than fertile imaginations.

IRM

reply to post by Desolate Cancer


To DC, and the OP....regarding a 'Dyson's Sphere'

I know, OP....you were discussing 'type 3', but it just so happens I was pondering the Dyson idea recently....

Several questions came to mind.....observations, really.

A thoroughly-built 'sphere' would still need some sort of 'exit', if one wanted to travel to other star systems.

HOW would the atmosphere, or for that matter, 'gravity' be generated on the inner surface? Would the entire 'sphere' rotate? If so, then the greatest 'centrifugal' forces simulating gravity would be at the 'equator' of the sphere. The rest of the sphere would be progessively more useless....why not a 'ring' instead??? Far less material, possibly more practical, from a construction/materials standpoint.

AND, finally, how to 'simulate' night/day?? The star is in the center.....

A 'ring' makes a lot more sense.....less material, easy access to space, etc, etc (no airlocks needed).....

EDIT...to add to IRM.....the Dyson concept seems to pre-suppose that there is no way to travel between the stars, and to assume that a civilization, in order to survive, would need to resort to such a construct.

AND, you're right, it also assumes that the star is the only possible source of energy....





[edit on 3/1/0909 by weedwhacker]

to weedwhacker:

You are assuming that this civilization would be living inside the sphere, but they could in fact be constructing them for the simple purpose of collecting energy. This energy could then be used to propel whatever automated nanobot colony you have to the next system to repeat the process. In this case, they could leave alone only the solar systems in the galaxy that have habitable planets (perhaps a couple hundred?)

[edit on 1-3-2009 by FortyTwo]

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by Desolate Cancer

 

Are you referring to a Dyson Sphere that encases the entire sun? Your language is somewhat ambiguous.

My feelings are that advanced civilizations wouldn't need a Dyson Sphere. They've probably gone way beyond the need for solar energy.

I'm sorry but nothing you have said is proof of anything other than fertile imaginations.

IRM

Oh dude fully, I mean I was just pulling this info out from were the sun dont shine.

I mean all I was saying is that yes with our current understanding and knowledge it would be impossible but perhaps not to a civilization a couple thousand years ahead (who didnt have suicidal tendencies).

I mean personally I would have to agree in saying that a dyson sphere makes little sense since you would supposed that they would be employing something more esoteric like zero-point or matter-antimatter etc.

All of this is just imaginations.

reply to post by FortyTwo


42, (shorthand) ermmmm...firstly, in a Galaxy of over 100 Billion stars, I'd suggest that there are more than 200 habitable (to Humans) planets.

Secondly, if the endeavour is to collect Solar energy, then a ring is just as efficient for the purpose, and far more 'cost-effective'.

Thirdly....well, again, the hypothesis by Dyson pre-supposed the inability of a civilization to escape its star system. I think, perhaps, there are far better ways to utilize energy than expending such an effort to build a ring, let alone a sphere, to encircle an entire star.....

weedwhacker:

1. It's naive to presuppose you know what n is for the Drake equation. The couple hundred figure I threw out came from the article.

2. How would a ring be just as efficient as something that covers the entire surface area?

3. Perhaps the reason to build them is to collect enough energy so that you can research what desolate cancer called "esoteric" endeavors like zero-point or antimatter-matter technology.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by FortyTwo]

[edit on 1-3-2009 by FortyTwo]

reply to post by FortyTwo


42, a ring.....say, a few hundred kilometers (or more) wide, utilizes a better cost-ratio and construction ability, than an entire sphere.

AND, there is enough energy output from a star, trust me. Some calculations I've seen say that the tiny Earth gets enough Solar energy in one day to power a major city for a few months....IF it were to be harnessed.

A ring, hundreds of KMs wide, that encircled a star? Plenty of energy.

AND....consider just how much material would be needed to build a sphere! It's exponential.

So you are basically saying make ring because its cheaper? expand your mind and think of the resources and technology of a type 3 civilization. If their energy need requires the output of an entire star then that's what they will do.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by FortyTwo]

reply to post by FortyTwo


Yeah.....but still......expand YOUR mind and consider.....IF you need more resources, why not leave the star system you're currently in???

Type 1, as I understand it....has complete inter-planetary control....Type 2, means interstellar travel potential.

Type 3.....well, if they've progressed THAT far, then why need a complete sphere? I mean, energies we've only dreampt of....perhaps anti-matter, already in use!!! A Dyson's Sphere, for a Type 3???? Type 3 civilizations can probably MOVE planets and stars.....

Did you read my original post? I suggested that over 99% of the galaxy is covered, so yes, I have considered that they left the system for more resources, it was implied to begin with. A type 3 civilization by definition harnesses the energy of an entire galaxy, and what I'm suggesting is that they may be doing this by containing the output of every star. If you have a different suggestion by all means feel free to speculate.

reply to post by FortyTwo


Actually, 42, I read your post.....and what I read suggested that some of the alleged 'dark matter' Galaxies that surround OUR Galazy may be covered.....by that I mean, they are not in the visible Spectrum...or, maybe I didn't read correctly.

EDIT.....to imagine an ENTIRE GALAXY encased in a sort of Dyson's Sphere? I've read a LOT of Science Fiction....but, come on!!!! To encase an ENTIRE Galaxy would require more matter than existed in the Galaxy to begin with!!!!!

I THOUGHT you were inferring that there were, in fact, 'dark matter' galaxies circling OUR Galaxy.....which set me off on the tangent about WHY OUR Galaxy is rotating faster than it should, based on observable mass....etc, etc, etc....

BECAUSE, a 'dark mass' that happened to be orbiting, unobserved, near our Galaxy COULD account for the wierd math that has been seen, regarding our Galaxie's rotational rate.....

[edit on 3/2/0909 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker
Hiya Weedwhacker, the ringworld is a good idea for an advanced civilization. Ian M Banks writes about them in his Culture books...



Pictured here is a diagram of Iain M Banks' Orbital concept. Orbitals would be 3 million miles in diameter and over 10 million miles in circumference, with a width of 1000 miles. Unlike Niven's Ringworld concept, Orbitals are far smaller and would simply orbit a star (not encircle it) and be tilted to create a day/night cycle.Link to Dyson Spheres

Banks describes this kind of culture as 'post-scarcity' AI and technology have rendered wealth and possessions meaningless.