Europe: Tolerating Intolerance

reply to post by inxion


Exactly. Ignoring these statistics because it might offend someone will not resolve anything in the long run but only make the issue worse. You cannot ignore facts, no matter how politically incorrect, involving something as serious as rape because it will eventually backfire.

I'm pretty sure most people would agree being raped is worse than being offended so discussing this issue is vital.

[edit on 2/25/2009 by AshleyD]

Great post, S&F from me. Unfortunately the solution for this problem isn't the ridiculous hate speech laws. These Governments need to do more to get immigrants of all nationalities/cultures to assimilate more to their environments. There need to be much harsher punishments for these heinous crimes, etc...

I just don't see how reversing the speech laws alone can can help. But doing that with the other things I mentioned is a start.

Its an understatement to say that I usually don't sympathize with neo-nazis, but that guy should not have gotten 2 months in jail. There was nothing in that statement specifically advocating violence against anyone. Yes, the language was a bit racist, using the term "horde" invokes images of invading, bloodthirsty, barbarian armies - rather than a mixed bag of good and bad, honest and dishonest, violent and nonviolent people which is what immigration, legal or illegal, is.
Locking guys like this up is just going to increase the tension and emnity. The neo-nazi who gets locked up is made a martyr, and the anger at the muslim immigrant community is increased by the perception that they are getting better treatment than the Swedes.
There are obvious comparisons that can be made between the situation in Sweden with what is happening on the U.S. border today. Remember the rancher who got sued for detaining illegal immigrants at gun point? A lot of Americans were more than a little angry about the way that guy was treated, and some of that anger was expressed in terms that could be considered racist - if our government had the same standards as Sweden, some of the posts I saw on ATS could have cost someone a 2 month jail sentence. Personally, I think "hate speech" legislation is unconstitutional and an extreme danger to freedom of speech.
It seems like racial tension is increasing all over the world right now, and immigration also seems to be on the increase, and things are going to get worse as the global economy crashes. As employment drops, locals will be forced more and more to compete with immigrants for labor and resources, and of course the violent and criminal factions of each group, the nationalists and the immigrants, will come head to head.
I think hate speech laws might only inflame these problems and cause people to lash out violently when they can't express themselves verbally. Perhaps that is what the governments of these countries want, to limit free speech, jail and make martyrs out of the dissent which then leads to more violence, which then leads to more legislation restricting speech and other rights.

BTW - I really do not understand the title of this thread, "tolerating intolerance." Who is tolerating intolerance? I don't get it.

[edit on 25-2-2009 by outsider13]

[edit on 25-2-2009 by outsider13]

[edit on 25-2-2009 by outsider13]

I hope someone else other than me has addressed this but why on earth does it matter that they were "Muslim" men. They were men all the same, when white guys rape people are they "Christian American" rapists.

2 things suddenly occur to me.
First, I think immigrant populations all over the world, regardless of nationality or religion, are likely to have a higher percentage of criminals among them. It seems to me that criminals, along with the poor and the politically or religiously ostracised, are a demographic that has a high likelihood of wanting to immigrate, and who would certainly not care too much about breaking a country's immigration laws, and who may be fleeing law enforcement in their home country, or seeing an oppurtunity to move to a country where, because of their immigrant status, it may be easier to commit crimes that go unnoticed or are "under the radar".
A lot of the anti-immigration people are portrayed as racist, and truth be told, a lot of them are. But we can't ignore the fact that immigration, and especially illegal immigration, will always lead to higher crime rates, in any country, in any culture.
Second, I just re-read the bit about the certain muslim leaders saying women are asking to be raped for dressing a certain way. Is it hypocritcal of me to argue against hate speech laws, while at the same time wishing someone would just drop a bomb on any person that thinks or says what these guys are saying? Oh well, if I contradict myself, I contradict myself.

[edit on 25-2-2009 by outsider13]

[edit on 25-2-2009 by outsider13]

[edit on 25-2-2009 by outsider13]

I live in Germany and I can tell you you have NO IDEA how bad this is.

Call me racist or what ever I'm just stating my observations here:
In my direct environment at LEAST about 80% of all violent or secual-related crime is commited by immigrants.

And the police won't do #. And that's for 2 reasons:
1: They are SCARED of the immigrants because the immigrants are fighting with everything they've got. And they hord together very quickly. I've personally seen immigrant-granpas (40,50,60,70 no matter) in their bed-time clothes comming to places at 3:00AM to beat up some people who supposedly insulted their (4th or 5th grade) relative.
2: Every action against immigrants is seen as racist by the "higher ups". A police-officer who arrested an immigrant has almost no chance to get promoted ever in his time of service.


And now the scary part of my post:
I ADORE the immigrants for this. Not for the crimes they commit but for their UNBENDING WILL and their FREEDOM!
They've got TRUE FREEDOM!
They FIGHT for their rights and they've got GUTS! Something you won't see in the German people. The German males (which I am one of) are pussy-whipped Beta-Males who lost all their muscles and all their willpower.


I wonder how this all will play out in the end...

YOU NEED TO READ ALL OF THIS - THANKS.

In Italy there is another situation where Romanians have been doing the same thing and the country has woken up to stop tolerating this barbaric invasion and it might sound harsh but nations learn that being too kind is in fact a danger to your selves.

What would you do, be a sitting duck or grow balls and do something about it? Here are some articles and links because I do not know how many people on ATS or the rest of Europe know about this, here in the UK they don't talk about these problems of other nations immigration conflicts and it seems to me that virtually all the established European countries are going through the same story and every country feel's they are alone in all this but the pattern is just the same and the denials are just as delusional.


www.usatoday.com...

"We should fight against the wave of xenophobia that is manifesting itself in Italy and we must fight against the bad image that Romanians who are working in Italy have," he said Saturday.

Italian authorities say statistics show foreigners commit a disproportionate number of crimes in Italy, and Rome Mayor Walter Veltroni said 75% of arrests in the city in the last year involved Romanians.

On the national level, figures from Italy's statistics bureau found that while less than 5% of the population in 2004 were foreigners, foreigners accounted for 26% of all those convicted, although the report cautioned that immigrants were less likely to obtain adequate legal defense.

Romanians have been detained as suspects in several recent crimes, including the rape of a woman on church steps in northern Italy, a Tiber River bank mugging that left a Rome cyclist in a coma for weeks before he died and the robbery of a Milan coffee bar in which the elderly owner was beaten and her daughter raped.

Other recent crimes in which foreigners are suspected include the mugging of Oscar-winning director Giuseppe Tornatore, which sent him to the hospital; the holdup of a prominent TV anchorman and the mugging of a Rome municipal commissioner.

The savage beating last week of the wife of an Italian naval commander triggered the decree calling for quick expulsions of some EU citizens after a Romanian was arrested in connection with the assault.

Amid the tensions, Pope Benedict offered his concern as he addressed pilgrims in St. Peter's Square.


Text

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Masgras Neculai, 30, a petty thief, was named as the first Romanian who would be expelled under the new law, which allows anyone who is considered "dangerous" to society to be sent home.

Police have begun combing immigrant ghettos and arresting Romanians without permits.

Government ministers have vowed to return 5,000 Romanians to their home country in the next few weeks.

The move appeared to have the blessing of the European Union.

Franco Frattini, the European commissioner for justice, freedom and security, said: "What has to be done is simple. Go into a nomad camp in Rome for example, and ask them: 'Can you tell me where you live?'

"If they say they do not know, take them and send them home to Romania. That is how the European directive works.



Text

In this article below you have the opposite because the Italian people should put up with kind of behaviours from Romanians who for a minority group is causing a majority of the problems.

english.hotnews.ro... end-the-xenophobic-wave.htm

Romania's Initiave Party in Italy organized on Saturday, at Rome, a press conference to urge Italians to end the xenophobic wave against Romanians. The conference was doubled by several protests against immigrants in Rome, organized by the Italian extreme right movement, Forza Nuova.

The 100 protests started at 6 pm across the country to protest against the sexual abuse wave registered in their country. According to their manifest, the action was triggered by the increasing abuse against Italian women by immigrants, especially by Rroma people. The movement considers that immigration is a negative phenomenon that threatens popular neighborhoods and women and children alike.

Text

www.euractiv.com...
So what is Europe coming to? We are just starting to be tolerant of each other in our own countries and now this wave of immigration is causing panic and fears to the inhabitants with these unsettled people who probably do not have the same civilised values as the country and who really do not like the freedoms of expression.


[edit on 25-2-2009 by The time lord]

Originally posted by zolom
I ADORE the immigrants for this. Not for the crimes they commit but for their UNBENDING WILL and their FREEDOM!
They've got TRUE FREEDOM!
They FIGHT for their rights and they've got GUTS! Something you won't see in the German people.

Interesting point. I agree. Immigrant populations have strong family and community loyalties, they are aware of their rights and they are prepared to fight for their traditions. Whilst I don't believe their traditions deserve such a strong foothold in my country, I certainly respect the fact that they maintain them. I await the day British people stand up for themselves too. It's coming soon, I feel.

It shouldn't be too much to expect a guest to behave immaculately. When you visit someone's house, you show the utmost respect. Immigrants are guests (of course, this is a very politically incorrect way of putting it - immigrants are supposedly just as belonging in a host country as the indigenous population, according to mainstream thought) and if a guest misbehaves, they should be put on the first plane home - no bureaucracy - just get them out. On the flipside, if a guest is completely respectful and adheres to the laws and traditions of their new home, they should be treated accordingly.

Unfortunately, this failed multicultural experiment has proven that largely, immigrant guests - in any country - have a lot to learn about respect. I think part of this comes from the misconception that target-nations want a new ethnic/cultural makeup. This is the message our governments have sent out on our behalf, despite the fact that from what I recall, nobody in my country has ever been asked if they want the racial and cultural makeup permanently altered.

Muslim prostitution of white underage girls is also on the rise, don't worry though, there's nothing condemning it in the Koran. Just watch what you say you bunch of racists you don't want to enrage your Muslim brethren.









The above videos highlights the above problem in my town.

[edit on 25/2/2009 by spitefulgod]

having read all the posts in this thread, it has strengthened my thoughts about voting for the bnp.
& as for if or should i when the sh-t truely hits the fan, i think it may start in the north of england & spread from there.
but right now the most dangerous thing i can see is the government silencing of the publics voice over immigrants & islam in particular.
this silencing will end up back firing in a bad way, replacing the government with some thing far more right wing. & then if some thing like bnp policy wich may bann islam & remove all mosks in the uk, i cant see that happening without a serious fight, but then this problem is only going to get worse untill immigrants & islam are told enouph is enouph.
also this silencing of public opinion is also forced onto the the uk police & uk military where they have been banned from bnp membership & banned from supporting the bnp, makes me wonder, there must be quite a lot of right wing support in the ranks.

reply to post by zolom


I've personally seen immigrant-granpas (40,50,60,70 no matter) in their bed-time clothes comming to places at 3:00AM to beat up some people who supposedly insulted their (4th or 5th grade) relative

Zolom do you honestly believe that they are standing up for their rights when they leave home at 3 a.m. and "beat up" someone for "supposedly insulting" a relative? In America that is assault, it's not a right to assault somebody here, and it can land your a$$ in jail. But I can tell you this, if that white, black, hispanic, muslim, christian, purple, spotted, martian, grandpa were to enter our homes unannounced and with malicious intent at 3 a.m. he would have his old carcass blown back out the front door by a shotgun. This is a law in many states in the U.S. which makes it my RIGHT to protect my family.

But before anybody has the idea that I advocate answering violence with violence, just know that I am of the opinion that one should do onto others BEFORE they do onto you. That is to say that if the man feels that his family was slighted by my family then he can come over at 9 o'clock and I will pour him a cup of coffee or pop a beer for the man and we will talk about it. But if he comes into my property looking for blood at 3 o'clock he will find blood but it won't be me or mine shedding it.

So having stated what right I have in my own home here in America, I'd like to know what "right" immigrants have in Germany to go assault a neighbor because they feel like they have been insulted? Would you find it to be a criminal act if it weren't an immigrant? What if your German born neighbor attacked a Muslim for a supposed insult? Are they then taken to the higher plane of "TRUE FREEDOM"? Standing up for their rights? Does everyone in your country have the "right" to assault anybody they choose or is it only a right for those that feel like they may be being oppressed? I am asking honestly because sadly I don't know enough about German law.

If it is the case that those who feel like they are in a minority or being held down by those that are perceived to be in power than where can and will it end? The statement that you "adore" them is beyond ridiculous and perhaps one day you will find yourself on the wrong side of a possible misunderstanding feeling the "freedom and unbending will" of a kitchen knife or some sort of violent act. At this point I am sure that you will be asking the help of your "beta male and pussy whipped" friends to save your butt, unfortunately they will be in their own homes cooking and vacuuming for their wives.

Nothing can save us from prejudice and acts of hate crimes. There will always be someone who doesn't like you and would rather harm you than look at you. My advice is to worry about yourself. It is the only thing you can control. If you personally commit NO hate crimes today then you have made a difference. Tomorrow when you wake up vow that YOU will not be prejudiced and will not commit hate crimes. The next day and the next, and the week after, and the rest of this year, until our souls mingle with each other and nobody cares about difference.

reply to post by DaddioOfTruth


It seems that I should have made my self clearer.
Even though I stated that it is not the crimes they commit that I adore.
And YES, that scenario IS indeed a crime!
And I do not, in no way, think that "beating someone up" is anybodies right! How can you even think that?

Originally posted by DaddioOfTruth
So having stated what right I have in my own home here in America, I'd like to know what "right" immigrants have in Germany to go assault a neighbor because they feel like they have been insulted? Would you find it to be a criminal act if it weren't an immigrant? What if your German born neighbor attacked a Muslim for a supposed insult? Are they then taken to the higher plane of "TRUE FREEDOM"? Standing up for their rights? Does everyone in your country have the "right" to assault anybody they choose or is it only a right for those that feel like they may be being oppressed? I am asking honestly because sadly I don't know enough about German law.

It really seems you overread that sentence where I stated it's not the crimes that I adore.
To me it looks like you think that I'm on "the immigrants site". I'm clearly NOT and I think criminals should be treated by the crimes they commit and not by ethnical background.

What I adore them for is that they don't fall back when they get a little pressure. Let me make a short example to be very clear with this:

Scenario A:
Person X goes to native German guy.
X: Give me your money!
German: No!
*X punches German in the face*
German: Please dont hit me! Here you got everything I have.

Scenario B:
Person X goes to immigrant muslim
X: Give me your money!
Immigrant: No!
*X punches immigrant in the face*
*Immigrant punches back*
*They fight*

And again; I don't adore that they are fighting BUT I do adore their strong will. That's all!
And I am sorry if I cant make myself this clear. I'm a (indigenous) German and my english isn't the best.
But I can assure you: My opinion is on no way that one that you thought I'd have!

And when I say pussy-whipped Germans (like myself!!!) I only state the truth. It hurts me to see it everyday but it remains the truth...
Person X doesn't even have to punch the German. He will give it away when he feels even a small possibility for him to get hit.

Statistics from the Department of Justice of the USA

In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites

This means that more than 50% of the crimes were commited by Blacks, when they are 15% of the population.

The USA, in the contrary of a lot of European countries, input into their stats, the racial origin of the offenders.

But nevertheless, some european stats exist on this point.
And they say exactly the same thing : the aliens are overreprensented into the rate of crimes.

Now, these are facts that cannot be put under the carpet, or demonized by some irresponsible laws or "politically correct" sermons.

Yes, there are "hate speeches", and racist crimes.
We MUST admit that they are mostly commited by NON WHITES.

The problem we are facing is the conjunction of several phenomenons :

- 1) Unconscious and irresponsible WHITE capitalists, for a better profit, have brought (slavery) or invited, or let enter a great number of aliens onto their ground, paying them nothing (slavery) or less than their national workers, and allowing them to breed on their land. Here lays the root of the HATE that them and their descent feel against the WHITES.

-2) The CLIMATE CHANGE is pushing out of their native land a hord of people who have nothing left and have nothing to loose when they try to flee towards the rich WHITE lands.

-3) The WHITE laws based on the postulate of the equal rights between men are VERY profitable for who comes on their land : it becomes very difficult to bring back home the immigrants, it is difficult to adress overtly the problem, when it is not forbidden and prosecuted by the LAW and the "anti-racist" associations.

Religion (ISLAM mainly) is one of the weapons which is used to spread and justify the HATE of the WHITES, who are mainly CHRISTIANS.
Drugs are financial sources for the underground nets and gangs, they addict their members and rotten number of their ennemy : the WHITES.

THAT is the reality we are facing.

Some gentile and kind and smart people may deny it, speaking of love between men, bla bla, bla bla ...

THEY are without knowing it, the complicits of a tremendous fall dawn of the Western WHITE civilization, because they don't want to open their eyes, and they condemn those who do.

THAT is the overwhelming reality we're facing.

I know Christians and tollerant people alike say treat your neighbours like you treat your self but what if they don't care and want to harm you? There has to be a limit and its irrisponsible to let dangerous people into the country or another intollerant society waiting to grow in numbers so that your home becomes a place of fear and your own people are killed by it.

reply to post by spitefulgod



If you look at this thread and if you look at this whole delusional scenario you will find the police and the people higher up are waiting for society to crash so that they can imprison your liberties. They will let Muslims in and let them out breed the towns and cities till their extreame views along with policing marshal law type rules combine into one controlling unit of power. Chaos out of Order its called and you wonder why they turn a blind eye to all this till its too late?

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by spitefulgod

 

If you look at this thread and if you look at this whole delusional scenario you will find the police and the people higher up are waiting for society to crash so that they can imprison your liberties. They will let Muslims in and let them out breed the towns and cities till their extreame views along with policing marshal law type rules combine into one controlling unit of power. Chaos out of Order its called and you wonder why they turn a blind eye to all this till its too late?

i can understand what your saying, but when i look at the history of england, & its very violent past, this past violence gives me a degree of hope, football our fav sport, & a great excuse to practice our historic violence, football, the winning team gets to drink its self into a stupour then iether ransack the area & or have a punchup with the losing team, (see history of millwall for details) beating the # out of some one could almost be seen as entertainment. these totally mad past times may give us brits a fighting chance if islam tried to stop the footy & bann alcahole, this would be very quickly followed by genoside & there would be no muslims left by the end of the week
our fair & pleasent green island, us brits have died fighting for it in the past, we continue fighting for it today, & come tomorow, my guess, we will still be fighting for it, cuase we love a good scrap.
if push comes to shuv, i think muslims in england will get a rude awakening

also if you look at english history i think the only immigrant that was ever welcomed here was the potato, cuase we love our fish & chips

What Ashley said. Line two.

Sad to say, but I think W. Europe has lots its way. Giving in to Muslim demands for fear of riots, restricting speech, labeling opposing views as hate crimes, making nationalism and patriotism akin to a crime, and calling anyone who speaks up about the ills brought to their communities by certain groups racists is not the Europe I used to enjoy and respect.

Originally posted by spitefulgod
Muslim prostitution of white underage girls is also on the rise, don't worry though, there's nothing condemning it in the Koran. Just watch what you say you bunch of racists you don't want to enrage your Muslim brethren.

It's more than on the rise it's the fastest growing area of child molestation and prostitution in the UK. Unfortunately their communities stand together and the UK police have their hands tied behind their backs by spineless politicians.

Originally posted by cooler

i can understand what your saying, but when i look at the history of england, & its very violent past, this past violence gives me a degree of hope, football our fav sport, & a great excuse to practice our historic violence, football, the winning team gets to drink its self into a stupour then iether ransack the area & or have a punchup with the losing team, (see history of millwall for details) beating the # out of some one could almost be seen as entertainment. these totally mad past times may give us brits a fighting chance

if islam tried to stop the footy & bann alcahole, this would be very quickly followed by genoside & there would be no muslims left by the end of the week

our fair & pleasent green island, us brits have died fighting for it in the past, we continue fighting for it today, & come tomorow, my guess, we will still be fighting for it, cuase we love a good scrap.
if push comes to shuv, i think muslims in england will get a rude awakening

also if you look at english history i think the only immigrant that was ever welcomed here was the potato, cuase we love our fish & chips

Have to disagree with you there, theres not fight left in your average brit. Look at when Sharia law raised its head in the UK. Opinion polls said that 80% of Brits where against it, yet if they spoke up about it, the Muslim community branded you a racist. Did they stand and fight no they just bent over and took it up the #** as usual.

Even all the women’s rights organisations who have fought for equal rights stood by and lets this pass, which means that a Muslim wife can be beaten to within an inch of her life and it be legal under Sharia (now UK) law.