Child abuse 'alters stress gene'

reply to post by Irish M1ck


I am not sure "micro evolution" is the right way to describe it.

en.wikipedia.org...

Microevolution is the occurrence of small-scale changes in allele frequencies in a population, over a few generations, also known as change at or below the species level [1].

These changes may be due to several processes: mutation, natural selection, artificial selection, gene flow and genetic drift.

The article describes it as "epigenetics,"

en.wikipedia.org...

In biology, the term epigenetics refers to heritable changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence (hence the name epi - "in addition to" - genetics). These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism;[1] instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.[2]

I am not a thousand percent sure, but they do not seem to be exactly the same thing.

Originally posted by Leto

Originally posted by seagrass
stress gene? I didn't know I had one.
Is that something you ruin and then pass on to your kids?

Neurological damage is different than damaging a gene... I am confused.
Can you damage a gene?

I didn't want to read the article. I'm lazy... is that a gene too?

No the title of the article is a misnomer. The only thing altered is your body's expression of the gene, this is known as epigenetics. The DNA is not modified. Here's a decent article on epigenetics:
en.wikipedia.org...

I often wonder if some kind of "memory" is passed through genes within one's lifetime of experience to their children through the genes. I wondered because each generation seems so much smarter. Was just a passing thought at times.

Originally posted by Aeons
They are researching it so that they can sell you a drug to offset it.

And of course, taken anything off the market that might mediate that problem without such a drug. Like taking the physiologically active form of B6.

There's already a totally natural drug could be grown by anyone that works quite well for many people to offset this....too bad Mum (I mean the government) won't let us have any!

This thread should raise several questions: What do we REALLY know about DNA and genetics? Do we really believe, as some have posted, that it is a set and unmovable sequence and that external stimuli cannot alter our genetic pattern? Regarding what genetic science refers to as "mutations" there are two: Somatic mutations and germ-cell mutations. Mutations that occur in somatic cells are not heritable, while germ-cell mutations are the ones we pass on to our kids. (Robinson PhD 2005). I didn't catch which cell mutations were asserted here.

Also interesting is the notion that our genetic composition is a true reflection of WHO we are, rather than just WHAT we are...and if genetics reflects that, it must be changing/altering constantly, yet we see a frozen moment in time when we examine DNA. If child abuse alters our genetic composition, then so too must love and understanding.

Why do I get the horrible feeling we’ll be hearing how that *forget the bad memory* pill has now been approved for Adult Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse?
So now they can still screw you up - and make sure you forget about it!
grrr

peace

Yo man that makes sence cuz when I was a kid I got beat up alot and im messed up alot

Welcome to ATS

A brilliant friend of mine believes it can be healed, but takes a lot of effort on your part.
And that you can relearn and reevaluate how you look at the events.

I was physically abused as well, and we all have different levels for how much of it we can take.

reply to post by seagrass


Thanks man, it is good to see that there is a welcoming and friendly community here on ATS. Probably not the place to share stories of such events but it is good to find some sort of support where ever you go, you know?

People with amnesia may have a new and alternate personality as do those with dissociatve identity disorder. PTSD and the new meds used to squash or eliminate these memories suggests something else.

My therapy has been in some way reduced by eliminating the stressors. If medications help, than it may be that time is also needed to correct the genes since there are chemical responses etc. I've read about glutamates and glutamate sensitvity and that crap is hidden in many foods, even raw foods like meats and canned fish. Change the environment such as psychological and diet. Who knows how many years therapy could take to eliminate thes toxins and repair the damage. My feeling is dialysis in some way may make this go faster.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by aleon1018]

Originally posted by YHSBtard
reply to post by seagrass

 

Thanks man, it is good to see that there is a welcoming and friendly community here on ATS. Probably not the place to share stories of such events but it is good to find some sort of support where ever you go, you know?

This is a great place to share your stories! Sharing is how you find out you are not alone in all of this crazy stuff. This is a great place, yet there are those who stick by what they think with trollish passion. This place is huge, and there is something for everyone, I have made some great friendships and in U2U found all the support I needed. Good luck in your journey here at ATS. I hope you find what you need here.

reply to post by Kratos1220


OH but according to many people here, you shouldn't be affected, should be perfectly capable of funcitoning and how dare you screw up. All perfect little drones.

Fact is, people can be irrepreably damaged, and suffer a mental disorder as a result of trauma.


This information has been known. Now people just need to understand it.

reply to post by seagrass


That is just it. People will come on here and say, I survived, and I am fine. But one personal story doesn't speak for everyone.

Genetics and physical capabilities does set us up for how well we handle trauma. They are starting to find that they can chemically pinpoint who can handle stress and who can't.

So basically no two people are the same as how they react to situations.

People with a gene already who have genetic mental disorders that suffer trauma suffer far worse, and usually end up in jail.

reply to post by Aeons


Hrmm...

Well I'm sure it does effect kids, but does it really make them suicidal?

I was physically abused as a child as I am an ACOA. Beat on an almost daily basis, and raised with a very volatile father.

Am I changed? Yep... I have an increased sense of empathy, I tend to become "the golden boy" where ever I am, and I can fit into any social setting. These things once "ruled" me, but when I became aware of them, they became my "super powers" if you will.... so although it was a pain living through it... it's made me who I am today.

Suicidal? Nope... too focused on survival for that stuff... Matter of fact, as others can attest who have read my perspective on suicide, I find it the lamest thing a person can do.

Anyway... this study is like saying a falling rock will have an impact on soft tissue....no big news.... although it will be good ammo to inspire more mothers to remove children from these situations



[edit on 24-2-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf

Originally posted by Aeons

So, being abused alters your genes. You poor bastards. Now you are a lost cause for life.

If find this particular wording quite offending on behalf of abuse victims, I never had a good childhood but not of the sort studied in this research, but many I am sure will look at this who have been abused as was researched and will have their victim and brain wiring reinforced by your words.

PS from working with Children with behaviour problems when younger, some from the abuse sustained at home and in care, trust me IT IS ALL NOT chemical or mechanical, and can be changed, the brain has amazing plasticity, and habits and deep rooted subconscious feelings can be changed over time etc.

YOU POOR ignoramus for thinking its just Mechanical and believing the spin, brought up to believe in a mechanistic universe and told you were stupid when talked about imaginary friends?

Elf.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by MischeviousElf]

I was commenting sarcastically on the tone of every article about this.

I know that the rest of the commentary I made was a little over many people's heads, what with talking about epigenetic changes that can and do happen after childhood and the HPA over reaction being regulated by the form of B6 that is being outlawed......but really, if you fail to understand half of what someone has written, perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions before you figure it out.

Originally posted by seagrass
stress gene? I didn't know I had one.
Is that something you ruin and then pass on to your kids?

Neurological damage is different than damaging a gene... I am confused.
Can you damage a gene?

I didn't want to read the article. I'm lazy... is that a gene too?

Yes, you can change how your genes function. You can turn genes off and on (or turn them up and down - in terms of how they regulate their functions).

Originally posted by AngelInterceptor

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
If find this particular wording quite offending on behalf of abuse victims, I never had a good childhood but not of the sort studied in this research, but many I am sure will look at this who have been abused as was researched and will have their victim and brain wiring reinforced by your words.

Actually, I read the initial comment in more of a grating and sarcastic kind of way, you know, like, "you were abused, your genes are defective, here, take this pill for the rest of your life and you'll be all better."

As if a pill could ever do such a thing.

You're reading is correct. In my 20 years of online posting, I have rarlely posted on a board where people are so unlikely get that sort of written sarcasm.

[edit on 2009/2/24 by Aeons]

Originally posted by Leto

Originally posted by seagrass
stress gene? I didn't know I had one.
Is that something you ruin and then pass on to your kids?

Neurological damage is different than damaging a gene... I am confused.
Can you damage a gene?

I didn't want to read the article. I'm lazy... is that a gene too?

No the title of the article is a misnomer. The only thing altered is your body's expression of the gene, this is known as epigenetics. The DNA is not modified. Here's a decent article on epigenetics:
en.wikipedia.org...

Since the changes on how the gene functions can be passed along to your children (how frightening is that?), obviously genes do not rule all.

RNA is very very important. How important should become more clear over time. I imagine that the differences should start becoming more apparent in people who have biological connection (DNA from Ovum and Sperm) from their parents, but were gestated by a surrogate. The RNA will come from the surrogate. Just wait for it. When children born to surrogates start showing up gene regulation and epigenetic changes based on the abuse/war/bad diet of their surrogate's families.

[edit on 2009/2/24 by Aeons]

Originally posted by seagrass
I often wonder if some kind of "memory" is passed through genes within one's lifetime of experience to their children through the genes. I wondered because each generation seems so much smarter. Was just a passing thought at times.

Now that may well be the case. As this recent article from New Scientist shows;

New Scientist Article Here

WHAT was your mother up to before you were even a twinkle in her eye? You might not think it matters, but it seems that in mice at least, mothers that receive mental training before they become pregnant can pass on its cognitive benefits to their young.

Previous studies in both people and animals have shown that a mother's experiences while pregnant can affect her offspring's gene expression and health, even years later. However, it was not known if experiences prior to pregnancy had an effect.

Apparently, at least what your mother was doing does have some impact. I dont know if it works the same with fathers.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Thank you IAG for looking it up. It's just a sense I have without knowing why.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Anyway... this study is like saying a falling rock will have an impact on soft tissue....no big news.... although it will be good ammo to inspire more mothers to remove children from these situations

Well except that mothers often dont remove children from those situations because they actually need/want the abusive person more than they love their children. And, also often, it is the mother who is the abuser.

What I hope this adds ammunition for is children's rights. Currently, parents right supersede children's rights in all but the most heinous cases of physical abuse. I would like to see that change. Perhaps being able to to demonstrate physical changes in the brain that can last a lifetime would be the smoking gun needed to change our attitudes towards emotional abuse as well.