[Breaking News] Stocks close at lowest point since '97

reply to post by username371


Not even close to the same thing. Please don't take economic lessons from idiot Congressional "leaders", Presidents, and Talking heads. Short selling creates liquidity, much needed liquidity. Don't cry and scream about "freeing up credit" and the need for "liquidity", and then preach idiotic political punchlines, such as, "Short selling has destroyed the economy".

I wish people would pick up a fracken book and read once in a while. Or at least go to a god **** math class. The amount of ignorance surrounding economics in general is astounding. Especially when the consequences for not understanding such a topic, are so incredibly dire on every level.

It is more than just being out of a job. It is more than loosing your house, or your car. It is trade coming to a halt, it is "money" becoming worthless. It is food shortages, it is riots in the streets, it is shock troops to quell those riots, it is high crime rates, it is extreme losses of liberty, it is countries shattering into a dozen nations, It is servitude, it is slavery, it is your children born into chains because of their parents ignorance of a topic that was so simple to understand, but too boring to pay attention too.

And now, instead of opportunists picking up the pieces of GM and employing thousands more people than GM ever could, we give them 30 billion dollars, and they fire 10000 people, and build a plant in Brazil.

Instead of Major Banks failing and the regional banks buying up their good assets, The government forced the taxpayers to buy assets that don't have value or didn't even exist, which saved the politicians trust funds, but buried my daughter in debt.

Instead of Free Trade, our government regulates it. Allowing huge companies to exploit third world nations, create sweat shops, and destroyenvironments worldwide.

Instead of Peace and commerce, The Government brings us war and deceit. Paid for with your money, and the war machine is built by your tax dollars, and the hands of thousands of very hard working 10 year olds in China, turning out the parts of some of the finest war machines ever designed by American corporate lackeys that lobbied for the war to begin in the first place.

You would think people would take a time out and try and figure out a topic like this. But no, they would rather hope for change or whatever it is. One year it was Furby, the next year it was Men wearing Pink, now it's Change and hope.

And before anyone gets political on me let me just say this....

Republicans and Democrats are the same, the exact same. Hell Obama was the peace candidate, and not even a week into his new job he bombed a bunch of kids in Pakistan. You know what else he has in common with every president we've had since the 30's? They are all, every single one of them, Followers of Keynesian Economic theory. The same economics you are taught in college. The one that has run the entire world into the ground.

If every president, no matter what party, is a follower of Keynes, believes in his Fiat monetary interventionist crap, then why on gods green earth would anyone think that there ever was a difference Between Bush Sr. and Clinton? Or Bush JR. and Obama?

Anyway, learn about short selling, and when I say learn, I mean do it. See what happens when you do it. Don't do the ol' "I've read both sides of the issue" crap. And don't read some idiots blog. If people think they are a victim of some guy in a suit shorting the market there is truly no hope for anyone.





[edit on 23-2-2009 by aravoth]

Originally posted by projectvxn
The Dollar did well today to a certain degree. But this, to me is deceiving. Imagine pumping 9 trillion dollars in bailouts to the private sector, only to have it disappear somehow, and the wealth still gets destroyed...

This is economic warfare. Someone is pulling strings. The dollar is going to crash.

Projectvxn, I think that the dollar did well today because we managed to do less badly than other currencies. I think you're absolutely right. I think there's going to be a very large selloff of our currency in Asia (I still think it'll be China, though many have told me I'm wrong). The fat lady is on stage, but she hasn't started to sing yet. The next few months will really be interesting.

reply to post by projectvxn


I think this is because of Hilary's visit to China where she convinced them to buy more treasuries thus making the dollar stronger...i'm guessing.

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by projectvxn

 

I think this is because of Hilary's visit to China where she convinced them to buy more treasuries thus making the dollar stronger...i'm guessing.

Best joke I've heard this year!

reply to post by bpg131313


It may not be China. Japan has a 12% contraction in GDP, they are the second largest holder of US treasuries, if I'm not mistaken, and they have already pumped 3 very large stimulus packages and several bailouts and buy outs. They will likely be calling in some of those Treasuries. Same with Saudi Arabia. The have all the problems we do PLUS an oil shock.
China is dropping at a rate of 8-9% in GDP. Remember, 10% is officially a Depression.

reply to post by aravoth


Lol...hey i'm no financial genius...but wouldn't this mean better support for the dollar?

If China doesn't continue to finance our debt then our money is printed based on nothing which isn't good.

it will go lower...the trillions of "mark to model" being turned into " mark to market" coupled with leverging 40, 50, 100, to 1 on CDO's and totally unregulated CDS's in derivitive packages will keep sucking the companies dry of cash. citibank, bank of america must sell off all bad assets, 10 cents on the dollar and close in bankruptcy. this possiby might stop the collapse of the american financial system...might...if we are lucky. there will be private equity that comes in and buys these bad assets, that will be able to hang onto them for a long period of time, so eventually they will make a profit.
however, asia and the middle east will pretty much have discreet control of this country because of the massive debt we will owe to them, due to the enormous borrowing continually into the forseeable future.
this country will never be the same, thanks to lassiz-faire capitialism and the unregulated greed it fostered
taxes going up, unemployment going up, large swaths of closed businesses across this nation are just the tip of the iceberg..."WE AIN'T SEEN NUTHIN YET"
a little side note to bring this into focus...i live in stockton, california and an OLIVE GARDEN restuarant is opening, there were over 1500 people lined up for jobs as dishwashers, waiters, cooks, and busboys. the line stretched 100's of yards out into the adjacent supermarket parking lot...FOR MINIMUM WAGE JOBS!!!
[edit on 23-2-2009 by jimmyx]

[edit on 23-2-2009 by jimmyx]

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by bpg131313

 

It may not be China. Japan has a 12% contraction in GDP, they are the second largest holder of US treasuries, if I'm not mistaken, and they have already pumped 3 very large stimulus packages and several bailouts and buy outs. They will likely be calling in some of those Treasuries. Same with Saudi Arabia. The have all the problems we do PLUS an oil shock.
China is dropping at a rate of 8-9% in GDP. Remember, 10% is officially a Depression.

Projectvxn, It's always good hearing your perspective. Here's something interesting to ponder then, regarding your statement above. If China, Japan, and Saudi Arabia are all holding vast quantities of debt, and their economies are all on their way down, then isn't it a game of Russian Roulette between those nations? If one sells off their American Debt, they'll get paid, that money will be spent, thus flooding the market with US Dollars. The other two nations will be adversely affected by this sell off as their holdings will have plummeted in value.

The question then becomes, "Who will pull the trigger?" It'll make the 1997 number feel like a dream rather than a nightmare.

reply to post by bpg131313


What we're not considering is Chinese and Saudi gold purchases. They aren't doing this for no reason. I don't think they'll use it to back their currencies, but I'm willing to bet they'll use it as a buffer to decouple from the dollar should the calls from Saudi Arabia and Japan start. And there's a good chance they will. There's already an over abundance of dollars in circulation here, if the very thing that finances it goes away..The dollar dies.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by projectvxn]

reply to post by dolphinfan

Things will not get better until we get an American in office, and not another communist.

reply to post by projectvxn


Then it's just a matter of trying to figure out where their line in the sand is. Makes me wonder at what point the Japanese will choose to cash out? I'm sure they are looking at their crashing economy and wondering just how much further down they can go before they are in some very serious trouble. I had forgotten about the gold purchases by Japan and Saudi Arabia.

I'm confident that the stock market will see the bailouts for what they truly are. Throwing fuel on the fire. There's no way to spend our way out of debt, and Obama saying that he's going to halve the national debt in four years is simply something no one can believe. Seeing how fast things are spiraling out of control, we're going to have a rough March. I'm rather certain that we'll see continued spiraling downward this week indicating that the market sees these attempts to mettle with the markets as detrimental to Capitalism.

reply to post by amari


There has been close to ten trillion dollars pumped into our system since last year and a tiny bit before. The markets if they had not had all of these injections would already be at 3,000 if not less! THIS is what people aren't getting, it is being held up by the financial injections, not broke banks, not traders, not you and I. The money is now running out completely and we are being threatened over creating more by everyone.
They will most likely try and do another injection this week; but once that runs dry it will dive even lower yet again.
The market lost almost 10% in a week.... the crisis and SHTF' you have all been talking about for years on end is here. Stop speculatining and go back through YOUR very own notes and see for yourself. The crap already hit the fan TODAY and there is no turning back. When tomarrow comes and they try and convince you that everything is okay. I would highly sugest you think twice about that new what ever you want and stock up, They can't stop it anymore, it is that simple.

reply to post by bpg131313


I think the losses seen on Wall St today are signs of investor revolt. CME isn't screwing around anymore, they're actually pissed. Everyone heard this and saw what happened last Thursday at the CME on CNBC. The White House basically told the entire CME that they don't know their own business, despite lack of government know how on such matters.

Wouldn't it be a hell of a thing if investors said screw it and started dumping investments tied to mortgages and triggered a sell off in CDS?
Inplausible? no. It could happen in reverse who knows. Santelli said "maybe we'll be dumping derivatives!". Meaning the market know the cause of the problem and is eager to fix it, and the government is just catching up, and couldn't be more clueless.

reply to post by xoxo stacie


With the CEO of Citi Bank being seen at the White House, I'm sure you're right. We're going to see even more injected money in the coming days, if not tomorrow. There's also GM with it's hand out for more cash, and lets not forget that in a completely idiotic overture of ours, we've just pledged $900 MILLION to help Gaza! I honestly believe, at this point, that those in power in Washington are deliberately trying to sink the ship. They have to be doing this intentionally! At first, I just thought they didn't get it. The other nations are going to get wise, if they haven't already. Then This Happens.

You're right xoxostacie, stock up now. Get what you can, while you can, if you haven't already. You're down in California, I certainly hope you're not in one of the major cities. It's going to get rather rough down there for you folks.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by bpg131313

 

I think the losses seen on Wall St today are signs of investor revolt. CME isn't screwing around anymore, they're actually pissed. Everyone heard this and saw what happened last Thursday at the CME on CNBC. The White House basically told the entire CME that they don't know their own business, despite lack of government know how on such matters.

Wouldn't it be a hell of a thing if investors said screw it and started dumping investments tied to mortgages and triggered a sell off in CDS?
Inplausible? no. It could happen in reverse who knows. Santelli said "maybe we'll be dumping derivatives!". Meaning the market know the cause of the problem and is eager to fix it, and the government is just catching up, and couldn't be more clueless.

I literally hope CME is pissed. I hope they really start making their presence felt, more than they already are. I'm completely appalled that the White House would be so flagrant in their denial of what's going on, unless they are actually attempting to push those buttons in order to cause the crash. If that's the case, it makes me wonder if they have a specific timeframe in mind, or if they are just going to ride this thing until the inevitable end, laughing all the while at all the nations we're bringing down with us. As for this week's coming events, this about sums it up for me.

we are swirling in the toilet boys and girls, OBAMA is just trying to spend what last borrowed dollars we have so that when we need it for emergency food it will be gone and we can turn to canabalism. Eat the rich right?

reply to post by David9176


Our money is printed and based off of nothing irrespective to how many treasuries China or anyone else purchases. The reason Hillary went to China and got on her hands and knees and begged for someone to bail the US Government out is because she is trying to keep the music playing as long as she can.

China will only continue to purchase treasuries if they think we are not inflating our currency. A cheap dollar is not good for them at this point. Internally anyway, externally yeah, they can come over here and buy up all our companies at fire sale prices.

China needs it's consumer base, as soon as they figure out that their middle class is more than double the size of the US population, they will most likely cut the rope, and let us sink. Asia in general finances our deficit. We consume an enormous amount, an unbelievably gigantic amount of resources. For example, we consume 50% of the worlds oil supply. What that means is that 6.5 billion people have to fight over the half that we arn't using. Well, when China gets tired of suppressing their own currency, and realize that they have the ability to continue on without 300 million fat, loud, morally bankrupt, uneducated jerkoffs. Then they'll stop punishing thier own people, and let their currency go it's natural course. And in doing so, will let ours go it's natural course.

We have a negative savings rate, huge trade deficits, massive government debt, massive personal debts. Did you know our combine federal debt is more than the GDP of the entire world? Based on this info a sane person can really only come to one conclusion with respect to the dollar when trying to determine which way it is going to go, and that direction is down, and it will most likely take the country with it.

Sorry for the simplistic explanation, I'm in a rush.



[edit on 24-2-2009 by aravoth]

reply to post by dolphinfan


LOL...A part of me likes your idea...But of course you know that the entire 'cottage' industry of lobbyists, procurement agencies, etc. would dry up in the process (which would create yet another economic drag)...

I have a simpler solution...Buy EVERY barrel of oil on the planet if it gets a $20 handle on it...Then, sell it to the Chinese at $200 a barrel (for a 1000% profit in about 5 years)...Eventually when the economy picks back up, there will be a bottleneck in the spot price (because all the supply is being taken off-line as we speak)...Obama is just making it worse by retracting leases and offshore drilling in favor of 'costly' green...

Heck, if Obama spent a trillion on oil right now, we'd have a $10 trillion budget surplus in a couple of years...But he's no CEO, he's just a community organizer bent on redistributing wealth...

As for you market players...It's easy from here...

- Long gold
- Short S&P
- Short US Treasuries

History will tell you that when GOLD either crosses the DOW, or runs to about 6x the S&P, the devastation will finally be over...You can plug any math in to that matrix you want...My prediction would be GOLD around $2,400 an ounce, S&P around 400, DOW around 2,400...

Note: I's really use the S&P and Gold (6x) cross as the baseline...Because who the heck knows how the DOW will get re-jiggered with AIG trading at pennies, and Citi & BofA having to probably get kicked out...

Last note: Ask yourself WHY the US government has essentially sunk $345 billion into Citi ($45 billion in TARP, and $300 in guarantees), for a 40% stake...Based on the capitalization value of Citi's common shares, it's only worth $25 billion...So they're paying 13.8 times market cap to own a 40% share in the company?????....Answer, the NOW 2nd, largest shareholder (previously largest), is Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal...

And the beat goes on...

Good morning guys.

Just took a look at the Asian markets and they took a sharp fall over the night, most down in the 2-3.5% range. I'm so used to this by now, and honestly I have no fear of whats coming, whatever it is coming, maybe im underestimating how bad its gonna be.

What exactly is going to happen in the near future?

reply to post by Hypntick


I got an better headline!
"Wall st will pay YOU to take stocks"