Hip-hop indeed comes from Freemasonic practices

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
The acacia shrub is a shrub, but the word "acacia" is also used to mean the ether

By whom? The Oxford English Dictionary, considered by most to be the most thorough index of the history of the English language, has the following listings:

accacia(1)

[a. Lat. acacia, a. Gr. , of uncertain origin; perh. containing a point, in reference to its thorns.]

1. Bot. A genus of Leguminous shrubs or trees, of the Mimosa tribe, found in the warmer regions of the Old World; several species of which yield Gum Acacia or Gum Arabic, Catechu, and other products; they form in Australia thickets called scrubs.

2. pop. The North-American Locust-tree, called also False-Acacia (Robinia pseud-Acacia), with sweet-scented white flowers, grown as an ornamental tree in England.

3. Med. The inspissated juice of the unripe fruit of species of Acacia and Mimosa, used as a drug.

accacia(2)

Obs.
‘Something resembling a kind of roll or bag, seen on medals in the hands of several of the consuls and emperors, from the time of Anastatius.’ Chambers Cycl. 1751. ‘Filled with earth...to remind him of his frailty and mortality.’ Chambers Suppl.

And just to verify that none of its roots point to "ether" either, Acacine is "Pure gum arabic." and Acacio is "A heavy, durable wood of the red mahogany character, but darker and plainer; it is highly esteemed in ship-building."

None have anything to do with ether.

Is the word "grip" in the dictionary as well?

Is the word "grip" in the dictionary as well?

Yep:

grip • verb (gripped, gripping) 1 take and keep a firm hold of; grasp tightly. 2 deeply affect or afflict. 3 hold the attention or interest of. • noun 1 a firm hold. 2 intellectual understanding. 3 a part or attachment by which something is held in the hand. 4 a travelling bag. 5 a stage hand in a theatre. 6 a member of a camera crew responsible for moving and setting up equipment. — PHRASES come (or get) to grips with 1 engage in combat with. 2 begin to deal with or understand. lose one’s grip become unable to understand or control one’s situation. — DERIVATIVES gripper noun gripping adjective. — ORIGIN Old English.

www.askoxford.com...

[edit on 23-2-2009 by RuneSpider]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Only religious bodies assert that the Old Testament is historical fact.

This is true, but Freemasonry does not assert that the OT is historical fact. It simply draws inspiration from the OT in its allegories and metaphors. It is not required of any Freemason that he believe the OT to be historically factual.

Actually, Abraham Lincoln was a Freemason, as well John Wilkes Booth

Neither Lincoln nor Booth were Freemasons.



[edit on 23-2-2009 by Masonic Light]

Mentioning the events in the Old Testament is discussing religion. Freemasonry urges its members to believe in a Supreme Being, which is dogmatic. People like you who use emotional appeals to sway public sentiment are engaging in theology.

Typical denial.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


FreeMasons is a secular religious society, which is to say that while it has no particular stance on religion itself, and neither does it force one, it does however encourage it's members to be religious.
It's origins are based on people who were predominantly Christian, which is why the Old Testament and Abrahamic traditions are featured in it.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Nope, some Masons say that it also stands for "God," which is actually closer to the truth than "geometry"

That's awfully anglocentric of you. The translated word for "geometry" still starts with a "G" in just about every western language, whereas most languages besides German and some of the Scandinavian countries, "God" starts with a "D". I've never seen a square & compass with a "D" in the middle. Have you?

Don't blame me, blame the "brothers" who make those kinds of claims. As a matter of fact, in neither Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic is there a word for "god" that begins with a G. However, in Greek one word for "god" begins with a theta, which looks awfully similar to the capital G.

That is a cop-out. The word for "geometry" in Arabic does not begin with a G sound.

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

FreeMasons is a secular religious society, which is to say that while it has no particular stance on religion itself, and neither does it force one, it does however encourage it's members to be religious.
It's origins are based on people who were predominantly Christian, which is why the Old Testament and Abrahamic traditions are featured in it.

Then such a "free-thinking" society should move away from its Christian roots.

The York Rite is inherently Christian.

If you meant that there is no debate about religion, that is much different from there being no discussion about religion

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Is the word "grip" in the dictionary as well?

Yep:

grip • verb (gripped, gripping) 1 take and keep a firm hold of; grasp tightly. 2 deeply affect or afflict. 3 hold the attention or interest of. • noun 1 a firm hold. 2 intellectual understanding. 3 a part or attachment by which something is held in the hand. 4 a travelling bag. 5 a stage hand in a theatre. 6 a member of a camera crew responsible for moving and setting up equipment. — PHRASES come (or get) to grips with 1 engage in combat with. 2 begin to deal with or understand. lose one’s grip become unable to understand or control one’s situation. — DERIVATIVES gripper noun gripping adjective. — ORIGIN Old English.

www.askoxford.com...

[edit on 23-2-2009 by RuneSpider]

None of those definitions describes the Masonic grips.

Then such a "free-thinking" society should move away from its Christian roots.

Why? Members of many religion join Masonry without regard of it's Christian origins, and enjoy it as well.

The York Rite is inherently Christian.

The last three degrees require that a Mason will be willing to defend Christianity, yes.

If you meant that there is no debate about religion, that is much different from there being no discussion about religion

Most likely there is, but discussion or religion is not permitted during open lodge. They are allowed to outside of Lodge, and no doubt they do.
In fact, there are a few debates over religion between some of the Masons on this sit in a few of the threads here.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


You asked:

Is the word "grip" in the dictionary as well?

It most definitely IS.

None of those definitions describes the Masonic grips.

Indeed, it doesn't describe Elk, Moose, Mormon, or any number of other grips as well.

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Then such a "free-thinking" society should move away from its Christian roots.

Why? Members of many religion join Masonry without regard of it's Christian origins, and enjoy it as well.

The York Rite is inherently Christian.

The last three degrees require that a Mason will be willing to defend Christianity, yes.

If you meant that there is no debate about religion, that is much different from there being no discussion about religion

Most likely there is, but discussion or religion is not permitted during open lodge. They are allowed to outside of Lodge, and no doubt they do.
In fact, there are a few debates over religion between some of the Masons on this sit in a few of the threads here.

Someone opposed to Christianity, like a "pagan" or simply any ex-Christian, may take offense to the Christian symbolism. Many Masons quit after their brothers would habitually criticize the Catholic Church which is rather foolish imo.

It's hard to ascertain one's views about Christianity, or to describe the Masonic fables, without discussing religion inside of the lodge. Sorry, charlie.

Someone opposed to Christianity, like a "pagan" or simply any ex-Christian, may take offense to the Christian symbolism.

Then... they don't have to join. Or, they can join one of the branches that permit atheism or they fill admits their points of view.
However, they should know walking in that Masonry is a religious based organization.

Many Masons quit after their brothers would habitually criticize the Catholic Church which is rather foolish imo.

I deal with people habitually criticize Catholicism, never let it bother me. Some of it is rightfully deserved, in my opinion. I'll argue points where I think they are wrong, but it's never caused me to really get ticked off.
I habitually criticize Creationism, but some of my favorite folks, my karate instructors, and several people in my class are Creationists, we get along great.
If they leave, it's on them, not Masonry.

It's hard to ascertain one's views about Christianity, or to describe the Masonic fables, without discussing religion inside of the lodge.

Which is why they don't try to ascertain one's views about Christianity: The only question you're asked about your religion is do you believe in a supreme being. They don't care which one it is, or what you call him/her/it.

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Someone opposed to Christianity, like a "pagan" or simply any ex-Christian, may take offense to the Christian symbolism.

Then... they don't have to join. Or, they can join one of the branches that permit atheism or they fill admits their points of view.
However, they should know walking in that Masonry is a religious based organization.

Many Masons quit after their brothers would habitually criticize the Catholic Church which is rather foolish imo.

I deal with people habitually criticize Catholicism, never let it bother me. Some of it is rightfully deserved, in my opinion. I'll argue points where I think they are wrong, but it's never caused me to really get ticked off.
I habitually criticize Creationism, but some of my favorite folks, my karate instructors, and several people in my class are Creationists, we get along great.
If they leave, it's on them, not Masonry.

It's hard to ascertain one's views about Christianity, or to describe the Masonic fables, without discussing religion inside of the lodge.

Which is why they don't try to ascertain one's views about Christianity: The only question you're asked about your religion is do you believe in a supreme being. They don't care which one it is, or what you call him/her/it.

Then Freemasonry will not accomodate those who are offended by religious symbolism.

A Hindu cannot take the York Rite. That is religious discrimination.

You cannot have a "religious-based" organization, wherein religion is not to be discussed. That's either a paradox or "dog"-ma.


[edit on 23-2-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

[edit on 23-2-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

Then Freemasonry will not accomodate those who are offended by religious symbolism.

Ok. That's fine, like I said, it is a religiously based idea, even if some branches have more or less abandoned that idea, so it's not for anyone.
It's a volunteer organization, so they are welcome in or out.

A Hindu cannot take the York Rite. That is religious discrimination.

Technically, they can up until the final three degrees. And, being both a private organization (the York Rite is itself is separate from Masonry as well) ,it is under no obligation to allow all people equally.
The final three degrees are a acknowledgment to the Templars, and that's mostly why they are reserved for Christians.
However, if a group of Hindus wished, they could start a Rite system for themselves. There's nothing preventing them from doing so.

You cannot have a "religious-based" organization, wherein religion is not to be discussed. That's either a paradox or "dog"-ma.

I call it philosophy. And again, religion discussion is only not permitted during open lodge. Masons are allowed freely to discuss it outside of open lodge.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by RuneSpider]

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Then Freemasonry will not accomodate those who are offended by religious symbolism.

Ok. That's fine, like I said, it is a religiously based idea, even if some branches have more or less abandoned that idea, so it's not for anyone.
It's a volunteer organization, so they are welcome in or out.

A Hindu cannot take the York Rite. That is religious discrimination.

Technically, they can up until the final three degrees. And, being both a private organization (the York Rite is itself is separate from Masonry as well) ,it is under no obligation to allow all people equally.
The final three degrees are a acknowledgment to the Templars, and that's mostly why they are reserved for Christians.
However, if a group of Hindus wished, they could start a Rite system for themselves. There's nothing preventing them from doing so.

You cannot have a "religious-based" organization, wherein religion is not to be discussed. That's either a paradox or "dog"-ma.

I call it philosophy. And again, religion discussion is only not permitted during open lodge. Masons are allowed freely to discuss it outside of open lodge.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by RuneSpider]

If religious belief is a criterion for acceptance, then religion must be discusssed at some point.

What the Freemasons forget to mention is that the original Knights Templar was a Jewish organization. Who knows how they suddenly became Christian.

Yes, Masonic lodges have a backroom where other matters are discussed, and where "the magic" happens.

If religious belief is a criterion for acceptance, then religion must be discusssed at some point.

Again, Freemasons are free to debate and discuss religion.
However, inside the Lodge itself, they are not.
Outside, they can. Inside, it's not permited.

What the Freemasons forget to mention is that the original Knights Templar was a Jewish organization. Who knows how they suddenly became Christian.

Er...

Between the years of 1095 and 1099, two veterans of the First Crusade, the French knight Hugues de Payens and his relative Godfrey de Saint-Omer, proposed the creation of a monastic order for the protection of these pilgrims.[9] King Baldwin II of Jerusalem agreed to their request, and gave them space for a headquarters on the Temple Mount, in the captured Al Aqsa Mosque. The Temple Mount had a mystique, because it was above what was believed to be the ruins of the Temple of Solomon

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, Masonic lodges have a backroom where other matters are discussed, and where "the magic" happens.

Interesting. most of the Masonic Lodges I've seen the inside fo have a main foyer, the hall, a couple of closets, and maybe a kitchen, and dining hall.
Never seen a "backroom" however.
How many have you been inside?



[edit on 23-2-2009 by RuneSpider]

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Then Freemasonry will not accomodate those who are offended by religious symbolism.

What religious symbols are they going to be offended by?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
A Hindu cannot take the York Rite. That is religious discrimination.

But it's a private society so they have that right.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
If religious belief is a criterion for acceptance, then religion must be discusssed at some point.

Is it really that hard of a concept that secular religion is not discussed?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
What the Freemasons forget to mention is that the original Knights Templar was a Jewish organization. Who knows how they suddenly became Christian.

Yet, all historical evidence proves otherwise.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yes, Masonic lodges have a backroom where other matters are discussed, and where "the magic" happens.

How do you know this? I'm the Master of my Lodge and nothing happens without my say-so or signature with consent of the Lodge.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by KSigMason]

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Many cops are Freemasons

And your proof of this would be? My dad's a cop and he's not a Freemason.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Actually, Abraham Lincoln was a Freemason, as well John Wilkes Booth

Neither Abraham Lincoln or Booth were Freemasons. If you believe so and have proof of it, then I challenge you to provide some evidence of this (ie their home Lodge and dates of initiation.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
That's what I mean, by most people it represents Freemasonry

But in reality it doesn't.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
The York Rite is inherently Christian.

It's a private organization and no one is forced to join, so it has no effect on non-Christian members.

Originally posted by RuneSpider

If religious belief is a criterion for acceptance, then religion must be discusssed at some point.

Again, Freemasons are free to debate and discuss religion.
However, inside the Lodge itself, they are not.
Outside, they can. Inside, it's not permited.

What the Freemasons forget to mention is that the original Knights Templar was a Jewish organization. Who knows how they suddenly became Christian.

Er...

Between the years of 1095 and 1099, two veterans of the First Crusade, the French knight Hugues de Payens and his relative Godfrey de Saint-Omer, proposed the creation of a monastic order for the protection of these pilgrims.[9] King Baldwin II of Jerusalem agreed to their request, and gave them space for a headquarters on the Temple Mount, in the captured Al Aqsa Mosque. The Temple Mount had a mystique, because it was above what was believed to be the ruins of the Temple of Solomon

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, Masonic lodges have a backroom where other matters are discussed, and where "the magic" happens.

Interesting. most of the Masonic Lodges I've seen the inside fo have a main foyer, the hall, a couple of closets, and maybe a kitchen, and dining hall.
Never seen a "backroom" however.
How many have you been inside?



[edit on 23-2-2009 by RuneSpider]

The discussion of religion is vital to their operations

Wikipedia is a piece of #, and that quote does not even refute my claim

None, but I've seen plans, and Masons have also used the backrooms of taverns and churches

Originally posted by KSigMason

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Then Freemasonry will not accomodate those who are offended by religious symbolism.

What religious symbols are they going to be offended by?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
A Hindu cannot take the York Rite. That is religious discrimination.

But it's a private society so they have that right.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
If religious belief is a criterion for acceptance, then religion must be discusssed at some point.

Is it really that hard of a concept that secular religion is not discussed?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
What the Freemasons forget to mention is that the original Knights Templar was a Jewish organization. Who knows how they suddenly became Christian.

Yet, all historical evidence proves otherwise.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yes, Masonic lodges have a backroom where other matters are discussed, and where "the magic" happens.

How do you know this? I'm the Master of my Lodge and nothing happens without my say-so or signature with consent of the Lodge.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by KSigMason]

Judeo-Christian depictions of the Old Testament. Hiram Abiff himself comes from out of the book of Romans.

Of course they have that right, but then don't turn around and call yourself a "secular" fraternal order.

Yeah it's hard because it's a lie

Historical evidence suggests that the Knights Templar were Jewish, thank you very much.

I take it you mean that you're a Worshipful Master. Maybe your lodge just doesn't have enough members, who knows?

The discussion of religion is vital to their operations

I'm not sure what you mean.

Wikipedia is a piece of #, and that quote does not even refute my claim

I was using Wiki as a basic source, all I have are your statements to the contrary.
As for the Templars being Jewish, the chief founders of the Templars were both Knights, a status that could not be held by anyone who was Jewish at the time period.
Templars were originally encouraged by the Catholic Church, again, during the time period they held Jews as collectively responsible for the death of Christ.

None, but I've seen plans, and Masons have also used the backrooms of taverns and churches

What plans exactly?
Yes, during the 1700's Masonry mainly met in pubs and tverns, your point?