Gullibility and ATS

Afternoon Gents,

I have been having a serious problem the last few weeks with a lot of the discussions here on the boards, and I am going to raise my complaint, here in the General Conspiracy board, as I see it fit to be here, not to mention quite important. I put it here because it generally has to do with the attitude of conspiracy theorists, and how that attitude can be used against you.

There are a lot of sayings thrown around, mostly 'deny ignorance', by a lot of people trying to solidify a lot of ideas and back themselves up. To me this motto is excellent regardless of how often it is misused. And it is misused, or generally ignored, quite a bit.

Just yesterday I saw some discussion happening and a reasonable man, InfraRedMan, was being ridiculed for his skepticism. Sorry to throw your name out there IR, but that is when it hit me. I have seen this happen to you more than once.

A few terms were used, but most notably the word 'debunker' was used. This has become somewhat of a powerful term here on ATS and various other conspiracy related websites. I will tell you all now- I have a serious problem with the way this word is used most of the time.

I'll be honest. It seems like a lot of people here on these boards, aside from a very respected few, are far too gullible. People here get so attached to an idea and spread it as though it is the truth after only vaguely considering that they may be wrong, if at all. Then they go so far as to use these terms, like 'debunker', when someone is only trying to be reasonable. Yes, I believe that 9/11 was a set up. Can I prove it? No. I will never be able to. I was not there and the evidence I have to show that it was a set up, while convincing, is obviously unprovable. So when someone tells me that they don't believe it was a set up, or an inside job, I understand why they would say that. Of course I will show them another side to the argument, but I don't instantly get defensive and start throwing around buzzwords at them.

This is the same thing we battle against, this closed-mindedness. How can we expect to get these alternate ideas out on the table (on the big table, I mean) when we are rushing headlong in, not caring of the hurdles in front of us?

The point is this:

None of you can ever know for sure what is going on around you. It is ok to reasonably assume based on empirical evidence so long as you also realize that you could be wrong. And I don't mean the attitude that says, "No I cant prove it but I dont care im RIGHT AND YOURE JUST A DEBUNKER!!!" No. I mean the attitude that says, "Here is what I think, based off of what I have seen and read. What do you think? Ah, interesting counter point you bring up there.".

Seriously. It's time to stop being so gullible if we ever want to look like adults, because honestly we look like a bunch of bickering ten year olds.

-Fox

[edit on 12-2-2009 by GreyFoxSolid]

Under the radar, of course.

Ah, well. Perhaps it will clear up, though I doubt it.

reply to post by GreyFoxSolid


Good post Fox .

I regard most of the conspiracy theories discussed here on ATS are bunk, its the little jems of knowledge that i enjoy , the ocassional story or report ferreted out by an eagled eyed ATS member and hour before it his the MSM. Or the contribution of ex-military/ scientists /& specialists in helping lay people interpret particular events etc.

Even a " far out " theory can be enjoyable to speculate about , or watch people draw-in , intriguing tid-bits of speculative info off the net ..... done in the right spirit its often leads to a fascinating discussion .
Its the absolutism ...and lack of humility when expressing opinion that often grates.

IMHO

This is the reason I have a personal policy in place that dictates I avoid the 9/11 conspiracy forum like the plague. I do not believe it was an inside job. I made the mistake early in my membership of entering a thread about this and stating my opinion in a fairly friendly manner and instantly got maybe a half dozen responses all along the lines of me being a "sheeple" (God I hate that term), stupid, a neo-con tool, etc.

The simple fact that these people who perpetrate that crappy form of reply always liberally salt their reponses with the concept of "thinking for yourself" yet seem to find it utterly impossible that many of us HAVE read the so-called evidence from both sides of the debate and HAVE independantly and through thinking for ourselves come to the same conclusion as the "official" account seems counter-intuitive and disagrees with the whole think for yourself mantra. Many of them would be far more truthfull if, instead of urging people to think for themselves, told people to dow hat they really wish to see happen, that being only see things from the 9/11 "truther" viewpoint (ie: groupthink).

I'm not sure if I agree with your point on 'gullibity', but 'denying ignorance' goes both ways. Therefore s+f!

What annoys me personally are the people here pretending to be open-minded and 'intelligent' and not even reading the OP before they post (let alone any replies...)

Blessed be,
Samuel

I mentioned gullibility because it is a gullible quality to simply believe something in such a fervent way without realizing that you have a large chance of being wrong.

People just pick up and go with it. Thank you, though!

Keep in mind, I did not write this because someone did this to me. Just clearing the air on that.

That is the reason why I don't often post on Aliens and UFOs. I have seen enough evidence supporting UFOs as potential extraterrestrial craft, but I don't hold this to be the absolute truth as I am a man of science. But you will see in these forums, quite often, that anyone who questions the validity, or invalidity of a claim or counterclaim as a debunker or believer. Two camps, mutually exclusive, one thing in common:

They are both ignorant.

Originally posted by GreyFoxSolid

"Here is what I think, based off of what I have seen and read. What do you think?"

[edit on 12-2-2009 by GreyFoxSolid]

That's the way it should be, but c'mon?

Shouldn't some subjects be painfully obvious by now? Like uhhhh.... oh I don't know.... 9-11?

Look at how many threads are on that damn 9-11 Conspiracy board... You mean to tell me that everyone of those threads is full of Sh**? They've all been debunked?

But whatever... When the SHTF we did our best to warn them that this would happen. Hell, even the MSM and Dick Cheaney tell you it's gonna happen.

Here is what I think.... GET READY!!!!.... What do you think?

GreyFoxSolider--

Heck yeah. Some of the stuff going on around here is just ridiculously laughable and time-wasteful. Some of the _persistent_ stuff.

I got into the habit quite a while back of using the "Ignore" option without hesitation.

ATS is certainly imperfect, but is occasionally interesting...and I reckon it's superior to Rense.com for an alternative news fix (by virtue of the fact that it's not completely imbalanced and biased--there are counter arguments to almost everything).

F

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029

Originally posted by GreyFoxSolid

"Here is what I think, based off of what I have seen and read. What do you think?"

[edit on 12-2-2009 by GreyFoxSolid]

That's the way it should be, but c'mon?

Shouldn't some subjects be painfully obvious by now? Like uhhhh.... oh I don't know.... 9-11?

Look at how many threads are on that damn 9-11 Conspiracy board... You mean to tell me that everyone of those threads is full of Sh**? They've all been debunked?

But whatever... When the SHTF we did our best to warn them that this would happen. Hell, even the MSM and Dick Cheaney tell you it's gonna happen.

Here is what I think.... GET READY!!!!.... What do you think?

NO. NOTHING is painfully obvious. It's only that we have been shown many things that make it seem quite likely.

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029
Look at how many threads are on that damn 9-11 Conspiracy board... You mean to tell me that everyone of those threads is full of Sh**? They've all been debunked?

No, they've not all been debunked. However, they have not been proven, either.

That's a perfect example of the gullibility referred to here. People read something on the internet or watch some youtube video and base their beliefs on whatever views the faceless author/video maker present.

I've looked into many of the subjects brought up here on ATS, and although I've seen some very suggestive evidence, I have yet to see any of it proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. As I've said before, nobody's going to prove anything using the internet as their source. And yet, so many people are 100% convinced by the (always) slanted "evidence" that they see on the net. That, to me, just screams gullibility.

To provide proof of any subject, you need to get out and beat the streets, interview people involved (which isn't always easy, or even possible) and perform some actual investigative work.

If there was more investigation, and less simple "site linking" going on here, ATS would truly be a force to be reckoned with.

Good thread, Grey Fox. S & F from me.

I think some people see a trend and misconstrue it as a conspiracy, while others see a conspirancy and misconstrue it as innocent intentions gone awry.

A lot of it has to do with language: most politicians don't speak in complete sentences and use ambiguous meanings so most people tend not to think in them or understand that they are using different meanings either. For instance, when a politician says "I'll make the economy better!", that is an incomplete sentence. To be complete it needs to answer the question "for whom?" When another declares his support of "small business", few realize that his definition of "small business" is one that has at least a million dollar payroll, Mom &Pop aren't "small business", they're micro.

Another confusing aspect is that a conspiracy doesn't necessarily entail group meetings and voting upon an agenda. It can just as easily be a dinner party, golf date, business meeting, or a phone call wherein no specific action is determined or called for, but a general consensus emerges of what constitutes acceptable business and governmental behavior and limits and to what commonly accepted end...

Does that constitute a general class-based conspirancy that begets smaller ones that individually look trivial and unsupportably pointless? Perhaps.

But I'm not sure if gullibility is exactly what you're looking at. I think that it's more of a process of shedding certainties for probabilities. Most folks are taught to believe in certainties and infallibilities of various sorts: church, religion, politics, class, science, etc. Then they discover that mostly it's "yes, but...", leading them to dump the mistruths and embrace new ones, but they still haven't shed their need for certainty yet, and so simply replace one certainty for another. After a bit most will replace certainty with acceptable probabilities.

Patience, you're watching a learning curve in action.

[edit on 12-2-2009 by apacheman]

reply to post by GreyFoxSolid




www.abovetopsecret.com...

So a friend and I were talking about a lot of things today mostly involving 911 and shadow government kinds of things.

At one point I mentioned to him about the day that I kind of put everything together in my head and became very scared and paranoid. At this moment my life changed, and I am actually fearful of how the future will play out.

Tell me a bit about when all of these things, conspiracies and such, got to you.

BTW... Everyone should go through this feeling... everyone.

It's called waking up.

After awhile the paranoia goes away and you start to clearly see the real world you are living in.


How many times do you want to believe the leaders that lie over and over to you? It's like living with thief.

How many times do we need to have things like money, liberties, and lives stolen from us before we start to say.... "Hey wait a second, this is complete BS!!!"

I swear some people believe our country can do no wrong... and that's what I'm getting a little tired of.

ANALOGY: These people could walk into their bedroom and see their spouse cheating on them. They've caught them red-handed.

The spouse would say: Uhhhhhh, I tripped and fell, and somehow we accidently got naked, and 'it' accidently slipped inside.

And this type of person would buy it. They would believe a lie so outrageous because in their minds, the country they love could never cheat on them. Even if they caught them in the act.


It's painfully obvious that we are being Cheated... And the way we are being spoon fed outrageous lie after lie is the saddest thing I've ever seen in society.






[edit on 12-2-2009 by Doomsday 2029]

Originally posted by subject x

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029
Look at how many threads are on that damn 9-11 Conspiracy board... You mean to tell me that everyone of those threads is full of Sh**? They've all been debunked?

No, they've not all been debunked. However, they have not been proven, either.

That's a perfect example of the gullibility referred to here. People read something on the internet or watch some youtube video and base their beliefs on whatever views the faceless author/video maker present.

That's not my point.

My point is that this crap is all over the internet... If there wasn't something beyond Osama Bin Laden and 19 hijackers... I don't think we would be seeing the mass amounts of conspiracy information on the internet if there wasn't something valid behind it.

Goes both ways...

But, IMO quite a lot of members here do not have the knowledge, language nor researching skills necessary to add anything of substance other than, "Yes, I see it!"

So, they support the OP by cheering it on from the sidelines, never really getting too involved with the action...I'm one of these people.

I do have good researching skills and I always try seek out more knowledge, as well as contribute when I can, but as with most others in regards to these topics - the contributions come off as ignorant or at the very least comical...

Remember the nervous kid growing up that couldn't talk to the girls, but could and would terrorize on them whenever possible..? Why - because he was in an uncomfortable position and reacted accordingly...


And I agree Fox - when it comes to those types of debates, all must be allowed to participate, but contributions should be in accordance with one's knowledge...no muzzle necessary, just common sense.

Good thread...

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029
reply to post by GreyFoxSolid

 

ANALOGY: These people could walk into their bedroom and see their spouse cheating on them. They've caught them red-handed.

The spouse would say: Uhhhhhh, I tripped and fell, and somehow we accidently got naked, and 'it' accidently slipped inside.

And this type of person would buy it. They would believe a lie so outrageous because in their minds, the country they love could never cheat on them. Even if they caught them in the act.



[edit on 12-2-2009 by Doomsday 2029]

Did you actually read what you said and compare it to any of these conspiracy theories? The reason this site, and us, the people on it, are in the unique position we are in is because the things we are looking at are NOT as clear as seeing someone having sex with your wife in front of your eyes. Stop fooling yourself into thinking this is what is going on, because it isnt.

We didnt see George Bush pick up a plane and throw it at the towers. We saw two planes hitting two towers. THATS IT. Beyond that it is anyones guess.

I am a "conspiracy theorist". I am just not ready to believe anything 100%.

Originally posted by Doomsday 2029
My point is that this crap is all over the internet... If there wasn't something beyond Osama Bin Laden and 19 hijackers... I don't think we would be seeing the mass amounts of conspiracy information on the internet if there wasn't something valid behind it.

There may be something valid behind it. I myself have questions about 9/11 and who was behind it.

The gullibility issue is that people read the "crap" all over the internet and believe it 100%. I'm all for questioning, but I'm not for believing based on some speculative tripe found on the net.

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that we will ever know for sure all that went down that day. Those who think they do know are the "gullible" ones for basing their beliefs off of someone's theory built from incomplete evidence.

Well said. This does not apply to just 9/11. I am also talking about ET, UFOs, Philadelphia experiment, JFK, free energy, ghosts, hollow earth, time travel, science, history, art, politics, etc. EVERYTHING.

Best line in Dogma- "Don't believe in anything. Just have a very good idea."

Originally posted by GreyFoxSolid
I'll be honest. It seems like a lot of people here on these boards, aside from a very respected few, are far too gullible.

Hi fox, I think you have some good points in your op however, the word gullible is an assumption as we can't determine weather or not the person in question's views are passionate belief or just believing. Either way I think it's a bit brash to label some as being "gullible" as many members come here to seek answers.Personal opinion and feelings greatly affect weather or not one chooses to believe in something. I also see no harm in challenging an opposing viewpoint, it creates a good balance and if used correctly, has a positive affect on the discussion at hand. Well that's my .02 cents!

reply to post by GreyFoxSolid



I'm not talking about 9-11... Personally I could care less about what people want to think about that subject...

I'm talking the overall actions of our Government. Which are clear as day.

And personally... I have a Major problem with them listening to my phone calls to determine weather or not I'm a threat.

I have a problem with them looking at my e-mails.

I have a problem with them sending our troops to war.



Some people seem to be fine with all this. Sure, inflate my currency... crash my dollar... send me to war... send me to prison for tax evasion... rob me of my liberties... rip up my constitutional rights... and then take my children away from me...

And then after you do all that... Tell me how great America is and how FREE we are.

We can speculate on 9-11 all we want... But there are some actions that are government and military have done that we need not to speculate on.... And apparently everybody here is okay with it. Or, they are believing the outrageous lies of how this all justified.





[edit on 12-2-2009 by Doomsday 2029]