Were John, Matthew, Mark, and Luke lying about Jesus?

regarding Paul, I highly recommend reading Pauline Conspiracy it's a bit long, but well worth the effort.

For a history of the compilation of the New Testament, grab a copy of Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman

Doing the research, and/or reading of the actual research done by others is a great way to learn what may be the truth

Btw, I can post more if you like. By my biggest gripe with Paul is that he treats Jesus as a sacrifice, and because of that finds salvation in the death of Jesus. If you find salvation in the death of Jesus, then it means you are finding salvation in the lie. Jesus(truth) is a sacrifice so that the lie of this world could continue on. And that is what we see happening.

I do not find salvation in his death at all. If it is to be found, it is in his life and example. That is where the true salvation and understanding can be found.

Paul also takes that Jesus died on the cross as a way to say all powers on earth are of god. This is most untrue, because Jesus even says this is not his kingdom. The power of this earth is not god. But according to Paul it is.

Paul says we should submit to all authority. But that is not what Jesus did. Jesus did the exact opposite. Jesus stood in their faces and told them the truth, no matter what the consequences were. The only authority Jesus followed was that of the authority. He did not fight back because if he did it would be breaking a commandment. This has been manipulated to benefit authority and turned into supporting the authority. Yet the entire reason the pharisees conspire against Jesus is because he threatens their authority.

Paul also makes a play towards government. Again, his political motives coming through. Jesus was offered this, he turned it down. Jesus is probably histories biggest proponent of separation of church and state. Can't serve 2 masters, give what is ceaser to ceaser, this is not my kingdom, do not make leaders of yourself and so on. Paul takes the opposite approach, and we can look at the dark ages to see what that brought about.

There is a reason it's called deception. There is a reason why the majority of people are deceived. Jesus even warns about Paul, the 2nd shepherd, which Paul clearly and plainly claims to be. His writtings alone make up nearly 50% of the bible. Even more so than the words of Jesus and those who walked with him. And clearly, history has shown that all those who opposed it were killed, just as the prophecy says.

I think people fail to realize Christianity and the teachings of Paul are the false ones because it is not "new" to them. They by default accept it all because it's all put together in the same book and so they assume that because Paul speaks well of Jesus, he is part of it. Same thing a politician does.

Yet, I think one must look at things from the perspective and correct time line. Since the time of Jesus, Paul is a new shepherd who appears. Christianity is a new religion formed in his name. And this religion decieves many, and kills those who don't go along. Not just an incident here and there, but 1600 years of history. These things are not insignificant. It's told that it will happen.

To be honest, at first I had no idea such things were in there. I just had an experience in which I suddenly seen and understood what Jesus was saying. But when I started talking about it, I kept getting Paul thrown up into my face. And I of course wondered why. So I start checking out what Paul says, and I find that he is not what he says he is.

Like, how could he be waiting to be adopted, if he had experienced John 14:20. Jesus says if you know him you will also know the father. John 14:20 is a specific event that happens to someone, a life changing event at that. It is what is followed by the holy ghost who teaches people. Yes, because of his words I do doubt this happened to him. I don't need to be adopted, I know where I came from, I know who my father is.

Originally posted by redhatty
regarding Paul, I highly recommend reading Pauline Conspiracy it's a bit long, but well worth the effort.

For a history of the compilation of the New Testament, grab a copy of Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman

Doing the research, and/or reading of the actual research done by others is a great way to learn what may be the truth

Thanks, I'm going to read the Pauline Conspiracy now. It will be interesting to see how similar or different my views are with it. When I first started talking about this, I had no clue about the history of people objecting to Paul. But apparently, it goes back all the way to the disciples themselves, which I find extra interesting.

Originally posted by badmedia

Like, how could he be waiting to be adopted, if he had experienced John 14:20. Jesus says if you know him you will also know the father. John 14:20 is a specific event that happens to someone, a life changing event at that. It is what is followed by the holy ghost who teaches people. Yes, because of his words I do doubt this happened to him. I don't need to be adopted, I know where I came from, I know who my father is.

It wasn't my intention to debate or bicker with you over anything related to Paul. Obviously you are going to keep searching and reading things, that will reinforce your mindset towards him. What I would suggest is that it might be a good thing to every now and then remind yourself, that all people and that includes Paul are children of God and it is Gods plan, for everyone to come to the realization of the things that are true. Also, Paul lived in a time, that Rome had crushing authority and even Jesus recognized this when speaking with the woman at the well and told her, that a time was coming and now has come when people would not worship in Jerusalem or on the Samaritan's mountain, but that they would need to worship in Spirit & truth. Jesus foresaw how bad things would be and Paul lived it. I think it is a healthy thing every now and then to remind yourself of this.

Concerning the adoption Paul speaks of in Ephesians, he's going to a people who already have faith in Jesus and he is ecstatic about it. He wants these people to be blessed by God with the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that they can know the Father better. This is the actual mystery behind John 14: 20, the mystery of the Son of Man being raised up inside the believer, the mystery unveiled of the Spiritual baptism John the Baptist promised would come from Jesus and the crowning glory of it is divine wisdom and revelation - a people being taught by God himself. If the Son of Man has not raised up inside a person but they believe it will happen - they are waiting for adoption into the kingdom. One day he will tell many who thought they knew him - "I never knew you."

John 14:21 is way more important to someone awaiting this adoption, than 14:20. And it's not just that verse badmedia - There is way more salt and pepper in Jesus' words than most people will ever realize in this lifetime on how people are to recognize this coming kingdom.

If the Son of Man has not lifted up within a person they are spiritually asleep. Jesus and John before him came to wake everyone up to make ready a people for the kingdom but I'm telling you 2000 years has passed and most everyone is still asleep.

Wake up people!! John 11:11 - Revelation 11:11

This board could really use a thread on how the Spiritual kingdom is recognzied and awoken.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


I have no problems with Paul personally. When I had my experience and gained my knowledge it's not like I just woke up 1 day saying "I just don't like that Paul guy".

But I was not taught the truth by the bible, by any book or by any man. I was shown and given understanding on a personal level. I did not see this in terms of Jesus, Paul and so on. I learned truths in the context not of the bible, but in terms of me and the father. The bible, Jesus and Paul/Church was never specifically mentioned to me ever. The closest to this would be me learning not to focus on idols and symbolism, but instead to focus on their actual means, what they stand for and what they are about. This includes religion, politics and everything in life.

The bible itself came after I had learned alot. I would see a random Jesus quote here and there. Or someone would point something out to me where Jesus had said the same things I was saying on my own. This is great I thought. I can't believe I never knew or understood Jesus in this way. It was never shown to me like this. I was relieved because I didn't think anyone at all knew what I did. I never heard anyone speak that way or about those things.

But then some people started quoting Paul in response to me quoting Jesus. Saying I got it all wrong and so on. WHY??? I would say it is the people themselves who are the authority, quoting Jesus. No I got in response, you are too submit to authority says Paul. And so on.

And that is where my problems with Paul come from. When there is debate over the meaning of something Jesus says, Paul wins out among 'believers'. And so it occurs to me that people are not following Jesus and the narrow path. They are following Paul. That is the problem.

As for John 14:20. This is what I experienced before everything else. It was on that day that I first knew the truth. And I didn't know it because someone told me it, I wouldn't have believed them anyway. On that day I actually knew the truth for myself and experienced it.

At that time I was no where near Jesus, the bible or anything else. I realize now that for the most part I actually did keep the commandments of Jesus, but not because they were the commandments of Jesus, but just because it seemed right to me. I have never seen Jesus, never talked to Jesus personally. I did have a dream once where when I woke up I had the feeling and thought the person I was around was Jesus, but not sure what is dream and what is not there.

But it is the father I know, not Jesus. And the reason I was so amazed at the words of Jesus is because I recognize the father is speaking through him, just as he says. There is no doubt in my mind about this.

So oddly enough, John 14 kind of happened to me in an out of order way. I myself went from John 14:20, to John 14:24.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And that is exactly what happened to me. On that day I knew that. It was followed by a period of time in which I learned and was taught much truth and knowledge.

This all happened before I ever knew it was said in the bible. So I was truly amazed when I first read these things. I had no clue it was in the bible. When I first learned the path, I did somewhat notice that it was what Jesus said about judge not, but that was about the extent of it. I never had anything against Jesus personally, and most people who aren't Christians don't either. The most popular saying I hear about Christianity among non-believers is - "I don't hate Jesus, I hate what people do in his name".

So for me it's not based on what the bible says. And that is why I probably have issue with Paul where others do not. But there is no way in the world I am going to drop what I've experienced and learned over the things Paul said. Paul says and does exactly the things I was shown not to do.

Now I realize Paul has a purpose. Just as Satan himself has a purpose. At the end of it all, I will hug and thank them both. I don't like GWB at all, but I would hug him and thank him as well. Not because I agree with them, not because I follow them, but because of their evils, their mistakes and so on I was able to learn and see the truth. If GWB hadn't done the things he did, I'd probably still be asleep thinking the USA could do no wrong and so on. I would have never questioned my reality which lead me to the truth.

So I don't judge Paul on a personal level. For all I know these could have been writings of his during a time he didn't understand. I would hate for some of my earlier writings to be passed off as truth, or really even my writings now. I would hate for someone to take what I said on these forums as the truth to worship. But all I have to go on with Paul is his writings, and that is what I am against. And if Paul is sitting there now then I would like to think that he would be happy if someone came along and corrected his mistakes to show people the truth. Because if such happened to my writings, then I myself would hope someone would come along and correct my mistakes.

You know, I could drop all I think about this stuff and just say praise Jesus all the time, and every Christian on these forums would think I was great. But such is what politicians do and I am not a politician. But that is what Paul does.

Hope this brings a better understanding of where I am coming from.