Were John, Matthew, Mark, and Luke lying about Jesus?

Some say they didn't even exist.
Well who wrote their four stories then?
Shakespeare? And the rest of the New Testament? Who wrote Collossians?

If you do agree that they actually existed and were the authors of the 4 gospels, then do you think they collaborated on the story, to make it be more interesting and therefore attached to the existing Bible, or Torah?

If you don't believe in the bible, did your parents?

If you don't believe in God, is everyone else that does, crazy, dilusional?

Usually in a two sided debate on one subject, there is right and there is wrong.

In believing in God, I feel it's more sophisticated than that. But I can say the faith gives me a feeling of comfort and peace in my heart. That's enough for me.

And the story of Jesus is compelling and worth a great amount of research in my opinion.

And there are truths in the bible even for the hard core non-believer.











[edit on 8-2-2009 by doctordoom]

My reply to this thread wuld be:-

What happened to the other 8 disciples books? Were they supressed?

reply to post by Wotan


Maybe they weren't authors. Maybe they were illiterate. Maybe they were imprisoned. The fact is, four authors made it into the Holy Book.

And the Apocrypha; What about those books that aren't included in the Bible? Who wrote those? Why was the council of Niciea so special that they were able to chose what books were included in the KJV.

If my memories are correct, those books wee first written in Greek when they went on their evangelical mission, as Jesus' followers were not particularly appreciated in Palestine.
Then translated into Latin, then in our language. So that makes at least 3 rewritings of the same text. I assume a couple of things have been changed to make the book look more interesting.

Anyway, i read the 4 of them, and there are a lot of differences and gaps which are interdependent. The details you don't have in Matthew can be found in John, etc...

Perhaps the whole thing is a hoax, written by a bunch of fanatics high on mushrooms but we'll find out when we discover time-travel. I guess that's one of the first things we have to find out when it's possible. Don't you?


[edit on 8-2-2009 by MattMulder]

Maybe it by the hand of God that the arrangement was allowed.

It seems to me that the story of Jesus and his teachings was central
to the New Testament, and in accordance with the 10 commandments.

The 4 gospels...Mark and a lost gospel known as "q" are the two main sources for Mat, Luke and John.

Also they did not write it in greek....Paul (he was highly educated and being setup to be a Jewish leader)may have but the others had little education.

We have peices of a second century papyrus with a bit of John on it.

Anybody who has studied HC and LC in a seminary will come to the realization that the Bible has been added to and taken away from/ suppressed. Makes you wonder who the famous curse in Revelations is directed at..lol.

Have you ever read the Thomas Jefferson Gospels? That read is an eyeopener.

Nevertheless once you discover that a lot of the Bible has been tampered with it will break your goverment/church/school given world view/tunnel reality and you may be able to incorporate the truth of the Bible along with the truth of History. lol

Solomon, for all of his wisdom, concluded that God's gift is to love your wife, your kids and to enjoy the few days God has given to us under the sun. (read Ecclesiasties)

I think Solomon broke it down nicely.

Peace
WR

Ultimately the hand of man was upon decisions that were made regarding the creation of the canon, just as they were upon the creation of, copying of, scribing of, distribution of, interpretation of, etc., etc., the words contained within the canon.

There are few studies as inherently fascinating as the history of religions, and I have studied the history of Christianity with great care. I personally do not doubt that Jesus existed in early first century Palestine, and there are episodes within the Gospels that could only be dimly recollected memories of eyewitness accounts of his ministry. I also believe that Gnostic Christianity was much closer to the teaching of the historical Jesus than the so-called “Orthodox” Christianity of the Apostle Paul, who, in my opinion, is the real founder of Christianity as an autonomous religion. Beyond that, whatever the history of Christianity may have been during the first three or four generations of its existence, by the dawn of the third century Christianity becomes mainly a repressive political ideology masquerading as a visionary cult. And Christianity today, at least institutionally, has absolutely nothing to do with the life and teachings of its founder two thousand years ago. Especially here in America…

Originally posted by joequinn
There are few studies as inherently fascinating as the history of religions, and I have studied the history of Christianity with great care. I personally do not doubt that Jesus existed in early first century Palestine, and there are episodes within the Gospels that could only be dimly recollected memories of eyewitness accounts of his ministry. I also believe that Gnostic Christianity was much closer to the teaching of the historical Jesus than the so-called “Orthodox” Christianity of the Apostle Paul, who, in my opinion, is the real founder of Christianity as an autonomous religion. Beyond that, whatever the history of Christianity may have been during the first three or four generations of its existence, by the dawn of the third century Christianity becomes mainly a repressive political ideology masquerading as a visionary cult. And Christianity today, at least institutionally, has absolutely nothing to do with the life and teachings of its founder two thousand years ago. Especially here in America…

I agree with you.

The one part which I disagree with is your Pauline view. He, if read and studied, is a Gnostic.

The main thrust of the Pauline idea is our identification with Christ in his death, burial and resurection.
....." i have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that liveth but Christ who lives in me..."

This idea brings a spiritual view to the life, death, burial and reserection of Jesus Christ.

Paul allowed women preachers, women leaders, he pressed against oppresion of women in polygamy(very widely practiced at the time).....he said that times would come when they would forbid priests from getting married....he spent most of his preaching days in prison and felt it as his thorn...his gift from God..he was more then likely beheaded in Rome or some say he went to Spain and traveled further North into Europe!

Gday,

Originally posted by whaaaWhy was the council of Niciea so special that they were able to chose what books were included in the KJV.

They didn't.
The Council of Nicea had NOTHING to do with choosing the books of the bible.

It's an urban legend.
Not true.

But endlessly repeated on the 'net.


Kapyong

reply to post by Kapyong


Sir, you are correct and I stand corrected. Thanks for prompting me to exercise my investigatory abilities.

answers.yahoo.com...

Originally posted by whiteraven

Solomon, for all of his wisdom, concluded that God's gift is to love your wife, your kids and to enjoy the few days God has given to us under the sun. (read Ecclesiasties)

I think Solomon broke it down nicely.

Peace
WR

All 700 of his wives, right? Wasn't that Soloman?

Exactly!!!!

HA!

Made me laugh as well.

It doesn't matter to me if Jesus was real or not. I know for sure that the words attributed to Jesus is speaking the truth, and so I can see the father in those words no matter if it actually happened, or if it was just a story.

I personally don't find it that hard to believe he existed and said such things, but if he did or not has nothing to do with my understandings. At the very least, the person who wrote the story understood the truth of things.

It's Paul I don't believe. Who makes up nearly 50% of the NT. He says things that sound good, but he talks and writes like a politician. Appeals to political power, and so on. Just so many cases where Paul praises Jesus, and then says to do things that are manipulations of what Jesus did.

The 4 books mentioned are about the only ones I think are "divinely inspired".

reply to post by badmedia


Do you believe anything Paul wrote? For me, it's very obvious, from the things Paul said, that he had a complete understanding of how the Holy Spirit, that Jesus sends - works. I'll agree with anyone, that he was way too wordy for even my tastebuds - but he possessed knowledge, that can only be imparted from the Spirit.

It's as if people are condemning Paul, for having in his possession the true knowledge, of how repentance and baptism prepares the way, for the Son of Man to be lifted up within a person.......... but because he didn't elaborate on the spiritual nuts and bolts of how it all works, but instead records only what he is being taught through the Spirit - people seem to hold a grudge, because he skipped a few lessons and went straight in to the teachings he felt pressed to get out .

Paul kept a lot of the more mysterious stuff to himself and even though I choose not to read and study his words very often, I'm convinced he encountered Jesus, was given of the Spirit and definately spread the message of the blessed reality of Christ. Also, Paul willingly suffered and died, so that we could all read what words he did manage to record.

That says a lot in my book.







[edit on 9-2-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by Wotan


Yes you can actually read Phillip's, Mary's and Thomas' in a book called The Lost Books of the Bible.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Do you believe anything Paul wrote? For me, it's very obvious, from the things Paul said, that he had a complete understanding of how the Holy Spirit, that Jesus sends - works. I'll agree with anyone, that he was way too wordy for even my tastebuds - but he possessed knowledge, that can only be imparted from the Spirit.

About as much as I believe a politician. If he had complete understanding then he wouldn't have said things like submitting to authority, he wouldn't have said that he was the teacher or any number of things he did and said that went against the words and teachings of Jesus.

It's as if people are condemning Paul, for having in his possession the true knowledge, of how repentance and baptism prepares the way, for the Son of Man to be lifted up within a person.......... but because he didn't elaborate on the spiritual nuts and bolts of how it all works, but instead records only what he is being taught through the Spirit - people seem to hold a grudge, because he skipped a few lessons and went straight in to the teachings he felt pressed to get out .

He is all about "praise Jesus", builds and idol and then tells people to submit to authority. He does numerous things which go against the teachings.

Paul kept a lot of the more mysterious stuff to himself and even though I choose not to read and study his words very often, I'm convinced he encountered Jesus, was given of the Spirit and definately spread the message of the blessed reality of Christ. Also, Paul willingly suffered and died, so that we could all read what words he did manage to record.

That says a lot in my book.

How could you know he kept more mysterious stuff to himself? If he kept it to himself you wouldn't know about it. So that statement seems a bit off to me.

Here's 1 easy example.

Paul:

1 Corinthians 4

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Jesus:

Matthew 23

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

And in rebuttal to what Jesus says about not making yourself leaders:

1 Corinthians 12

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

And yet he shows a more excellent way? He doesn't say this once, but multiple times.

Ephesians 4

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

1 Timothy 2
7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not

a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Timothy 1

10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

11Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

He praises Jesus, says he is doing things in his name, and then does things which are not in line with what Jesus taught people. Just like a politician does.

Does he promise false gifts? YES! He often refers to eternal life as a "free gift". Doesn't get more marketing than that. And yet, does Jesus tell the rich man who approaches him just to wait until he is dead and then he can just believe and get his free gift? NO!

I learned without the bible from the holy spirit, and the things Paul does is exactly the things I was shown not to do. What Jesus says is what I was taught is truth.

How about those who view Jesus as a sacrifice? Where does this idea come from? Paul or Jesus?

Paul:

1 Corinthians 5

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Ephesians 5

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Does Jesus agree?

Matthew 9

13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.