U.S. vs. China

The dollar does not drop against the chinese RMB... arguably the most important market for the US.

China's economy is on the road to being full a market environment... but full capatalism needed reigning in as over-investment can cause an economic bubble and a crash.

What are you saying broadsword... that the macro-control should be removed and over investment allowed?...

Realistically a slow steady march is better than a great big leap and fall.

Chinese companied are already starting to make a name for themselves, with the rover/mg merger and the dutch telecoms deal.

Chinese firms have also developed the worlds most advanced integrated chip for electronic systems that outperforms DVB-T and ATSC standards and will probably become the new chinese standard.

Huh?? I haven't spoken a word about economics or anything....go back and read the posts.

Actually if US dropped its currency values intentionally then they've really got the opposite of want they wanted in other words, the planned backfired. China for now can not be replaced. No other country in the world can provide excellent quality in cheap price and no limits to quantity. By dropping the value of USD America basically made their investors in China to buy less stuff at the higher price, no one else can provide the stuff they are looking for and basically hurting the US companies and making China grow even more.

China is certainly on the road to becoming a Superpower but I expect 25-30 years for economic parity and 40 years for China to gain more military power and projection than America.

If it continues to grow like this then in 7 years the GDP of CHina and America will be the same but this is not completely what China wants, we want the Economics to OVERPOWER America and the GDP per person to rise significantly to modern developed countries and with our population we will overwhelm the other developed countries.

China has potential to do that, but they'll never do it with a controlled market.

You can take a look in this world. The most successful economies are capitalistic. The closer to socialism, the worse the economy does.

yes... that is why the chinese government is asking other nations to recognise it as a full market economy.

Now that china has joined the WTO is has no other choice

Many nations in the WTO aren't all that capitalistic.

China is a coming and the Red Bear is right behind them, Russia. I got enough arms to fight off those Red Rats for the next 5 years. I can shoot an walnut off a tree at 500 yards. So shooting an red wont be too much different. We as Americans, need to forget about the US Army protecting us... they will have a time to protect themselves. The american people need to stand up and declare we arent going to give up our way of life and our traditions to any red. I like eating beef any givien day of the week. smoking cigarettes until i'm blue in the face and drinking until I hit the floor and debating with everyone I know on why we have a poor president. I like strip clubs and the right to bear arms. With reds over here, none of those things would be possible. Thats why I stand against anyone who wants to march on the US. and that day is a coming... and everyone needs to be perpared. espically the nothern states, thats the most logical place of invasion, from canada. All I am saying is watch out. Their coming shortly.

The thing about inflicting massive civilian caulties is the more civilians you kill, the more the people will hate you and want to kill you for revenge therefore creating higher morale and more people to join the guerilla warfare. Even if you kill 90% of the Chinese population, we still have a overwhelming advantage in manpower. And 90% civilian casulty is IMPOSSIBLE, the world will stop you before that kind of thing ever happens, your own people will resent killing all those people for no particularly good reason.

This is one thing I hope you all remember... chinas greatest strength is in the number of people they have, consequently its also their greatest weakness.

It's relatively easy to hit their thin stretched supply lines. They will be fighting mostly on foot. They will quickly see soldiers starving, running out of supplies and weapons. Even if they had external aid one would find himself pretty hungry, pretty quick as the already stingy supply lines are struck and dissolved...

I wouldn't say that Chinese fighter jets wouldn't even be able to get off the ground. China is huge, there are only so many B-2s and F-117s and airpower can't do everything. Infact, airpower can't do that much on the conventional terms except for destroying bunkers and other aircrafts. China has 4th generation planes, we are not that far behind in terms of aviation technology. And as mentioned before, US won't be able to have air superiority over the entire CHina, they would need twenty times the planes and much longer range for the planes they already have because China isn't Iraq, China is the size of 100 Iraqs, thats how many planes you would need.

It's relatively easy to hit airbases and other targets of interest with deep air launches of JSOWs and B-2s armed with ~80SDBs. That's all before 200 or so self escorted F/A-22s and even more F/A-35s move in and have their way with ground targets of interest.

And yes, china is a large land mass... Thank god for tankers and the ability to wait for the enemy fighter/attackers to come out of hiding, make their move and get splashed; wait, maybe the airforce will think (when don�t they?) and actually use the B-2 for what their made for and deep strike the airfields that are unreachable by the F-117s?

And last, but not least chinas airforce is coming along pretty nicely but their outdated Flankers are no match for even an F-15C yet alone stealthy F/A-22, F/A-35 and F/A-18E-F. And as they advance in the future so will our force...

China is a coming and the Red Bear is right behind them, Russia.

Russia and china are ~this close from going at it.

a basic flanker will take on an f-15c let alone the latest variants

a basic flanker will take on an f-15c let alone the latest variants

Originally posted by ChrisRT

China is a coming and the Red Bear is right behind them, Russia.

Russia and china are ~this close from going at it.

Heck thats what they want you to think. Wouldnt it be awfully suspicious if they were all of a sudden... real chummy chummy and having perfect harminous peace with each other. they shout bad things at each other, but why arent they fighting? they been bickering for years. In the past, maybe they did hate each other.... but now, believe me its all show.

The Chinese weren't that worn out when the Mongols arrived. They had heavy fortresses, more troops, and superior technology. They could never fight against the Mongols in the open.

Oh are you kidding me? China wasn't worn out? FRIGGIN HALF OF CHINA(from the Yantze River(or chang jiang or long river) to the north) WAS ALREADY CONQUERED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY(The Jin). Not to mention practically DECADES of warfare against another country(The Liao) even before the Jin. And even after that, IT TOOK THE MONGOLS DECADES TO CONQUER CHINA. Please get the facts straight first. There were fortresses, but by the time Kublai Khan invaded, there were no technological advances, especially considering Kublai's cannons negated much of the effectiveness of fortresses in a long siege. Also, the Mongols only had one strategically important fortress at Xiangyang to conquer, and once they finally broke it, it was smooth sailing from then on.

The U.S. does have huge technological advances, but the difference is no bigger than U.S. vs. Vietcong, and that was a far smaller country. We all know how that turned out. Also, did you realize the Chines fought the U.S. troops to a standstill on FOREIGN soil before? It's the "forgotten war" in Korea. The U.S. had absolute air superiority, absolute naval superiority, and FAR outequipped the Chinese army. The Chinese army in Korea did not possess a SINGLE piece of heavy artillery(they had them, but weren't used since they're useless against the Americans). The Chinese troops could not maintain an offensive lasting longer than 3 days due to logistical shortcomings. Yet the Americans were fought to a stalemate. Now try that on Chinese soil and the technology gap much closer. And don't give me that "our pilots beat their pilots with worse planes" crap. China didn't even have an airforce nor a single operational squadron until 2-3 years before the Korean war, their training then can't be worse than what they have now, and the Americans' training now can't be any better than what they had then.


Oh, and you do realize those T-72 tanks are kinda old right? That's like saying American arms are consistently better than Russian arms because the F-15/16's hammered the Mig-21/25's the Iraqis had. If a war should arise between the U.S. and China, China would've mass produced its more advanced tanks(the T-90 series) long before then. Besides, it will most likely become an unconventional guerrilla war anyway, so tanks won't matter much.

[edit on 29-12-2004 by dingyibvs]

I like eating beef any givien day of the week. smoking cigarettes until i'm blue in the face and drinking until I hit the floor and debating with everyone I know on why we have a poor president. I like strip clubs and the right to bear arms. With reds over here, none of those things would be possible.

Actually, you do realize that most of those are not only possible in China, but also happens way too often for its own good right? Smoking and alcoholism are big social problem in China. And due to the relatively high unemployment rate, many people have nothing better to do than eat, drink, smoke, and complain loudly about the government and its corrupt officials. Now strip clubs and the arms-bearing are not allowed. Strip clubs for obvious reasons, though underground ones along with prostitution isn't all that uncommon(especially if you're rich). And with a population like that and the extremely highly stressful society(think of how hard those chinese parents make their kids study~ and then they still can't get a job), gun-bearing can also be a problem in China.

Heck thats what they want you to think. Wouldnt it be awfully suspicious if they were all of a sudden... real chummy chummy and having perfect harminous peace with each other. they shout bad things at each other, but why arent they fighting? they been bickering for years. In the past, maybe they did hate each other.... but now, believe me its all show.

I think one could same the same about Israelis situation, no?
Anyhow, Russia knows that china is more of a threat as they are aggressive and right on their boarder, as well as starving for Russians many resources.
Russia needs an economic spike and i think they know that they will probably take chinas mass production place as soon as they are out of the picture...

a basic flanker will take on an f-15c let alone the latest variants

Come to think about it a Flanker would be all over an F-15 in a knife fight... Maybe us/our USAF pilots will fight like they are trained and actually stay in their high altitude, high speed advantage if the Flankers don�t get shot down when they are at BVR range as seeing the F-15s v1 radar has superior range and the AESA simply outclasses it... And hey, the N-011M has less features and range then the APG-63(V)2. But I think the F/A-22, F/A-35 combo will be doing the initial dirty work as the F-15Cs will be taking out the many outdated relics that will come out of hiding later that day.

The U.S. and Russia are ~ close to going back at each other again. The U.S. is threatening Russia and extending its influence closer and closer to the Russian border from all directions. In the West, there's the NATO expansion, to the Southwest there's Iraq and possibly Iran in the future, to the East, there has always been Japan. And now it appears the U.S. has edged even closer after the U.S. backed Yushchenko won the Ukrainian election over the Moscow-backed Yanukovych, thus extending its influence into a region controlled by Russia for the past few centuries. Russia will be fools not to feel the tightening noose around it. Russia's economy is growing at a healthy rate again, and sooner or later they'll need more resources. The obvious solution is to control the middle east, and only the U.S. stand in the way. It's plainly obvious that Russia and the U.S. will go at it from all directions in a few years. After all, Russia has lost little of its industries nor technologies, all they need is a few more years to recover economically, and once they have the money, they'll be able to start producing weapons and training troops close to before. And since the conflict will be closer to home since the satellite countries are now in Western grasp, they won't have to deploy resources all over the globe and they can just concentrate on areas closer to home.

With a minus GDP, absolutely no middle class, and a birthrate that puts the population at ~zip come late this century I don�t think they will be throwing any weight around anytime soon.

With all this supposed 'chinese superness' coming out of everyone�s mouth I (as well as many actual Russians) think china will be the one to go next. Hey, with them out of the picture the non working Russians will once again be employed making tinker toys and bungalows...

Also, Russia has most, if not all the resources a country of its populous needs in its own backyard. It just needs to mine and pump.

Lucretius

a basic flanker will take on an f-15c let alone the latest variants

Well, I think ChristRT said everything I was going to here.

Heck thats what they want you to think. Wouldnt it be awfully suspicious if they were all of a sudden... real chummy chummy and having perfect harminous peace with each other. they shout bad things at each other, but why arent they fighting? they been bickering for years. In the past, maybe they did hate each other.... but now, believe me its all show.

Wave
Russia has just as much reason to fear America as they do China. Probably more in the end. All sides want to see themselves on top, and expect to. This makes a real alliance very difficult.

dingyibvs

Oh are you kidding me? China wasn't worn out? FRIGGIN HALF OF CHINA(from the Yantze River(or chang jiang or long river) to the north) WAS ALREADY CONQUERED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY(The Jin). Not to mention practically DECADES of warfare against another country(The Liao) even before the Jin. And even after that, IT TOOK THE MONGOLS DECADES TO CONQUER CHINA. Please get the facts straight first. There were fortresses, but by the time Kublai Khan invaded, there were no technological advances, especially considering Kublai's cannons negated much of the effectiveness of fortresses in a long siege. Also, the Mongols only had one strategically important fortress at Xiangyang to conquer, and once they finally broke it, it was smooth sailing from then on.

The Chinese had something like 2 million soldiers at their disposal when Genghis Khan first came, and he had 25,000. Genghis had no siege equipment. You really think there's an excuse for the Chinese losing?

The Mongols were never threatened in actual combat by the Chinese.

The U.S. does have huge technological advances, but the difference is no bigger than U.S. vs. Vietcong, and that was a far smaller country. We all know how that turned out. Also, did you realize the Chines fought the U.S. troops to a standstill on FOREIGN soil before? It's the "forgotten war" in Korea. The U.S. had absolute air superiority, absolute naval superiority, and FAR outequipped the Chinese army. The Chinese army in Korea did not possess a SINGLE piece of heavy artillery(they had them, but weren't used since they're useless against the Americans). The Chinese troops could not maintain an offensive lasting longer than 3 days due to logistical shortcomings. Yet the Americans were fought to a stalemate. Now try that on Chinese soil and the technology gap much closer. And don't give me that "our pilots beat their pilots with worse planes" crap. China didn't even have an airforce nor a single operational squadron until 2-3 years before the Korean war, their training then can't be worse than what they have now, and the Americans' training now can't be any better than what they had then.

Vietnam? America never lost a battle in Vietnam. Our troops were basically just patrolling areas. That's not even close to how a war with China would go. I don't see the Chinese fighting a guerilla war, anyway. When have the Chinese ever done that? That's not their strength, or military doctrine. If they did, better for us. A guerilla war doesn't have that much military capability on its own. It only works in Iraq and Vietnam to a point because America was, and is playing politics. War with China would be taken far more seriously by the American people, as well as government.

As for Korea, you couldn't be more wrong.

America was at just 40% of its military strength in Korea. The rest was tied down rebuilding Germany and Japan after WW2.

The Chinese did have superior planes. The Migs they got from Russia were better then Sabres in almost every way. Now, the American pilots were of course far superior. Russian sent many of their aces from WW2 to help the Chinese, though. The numbers in the air went to China as well. I think everyone knows already that the Sabres ended up with a 10:1 kill ratio in the air.

On the ground, the Chinese did drive us back. People just like to forget that they launched a surprise attack on an army that wasn't anywhere near its full strength, and that was spread out across all of Korea. Americans were still fighting the numerically superior Chinese back. Make no mistake about it. Had that war been more popular in America, we would have driven the Chinese right out of Korea, and maybe even continued into China.

And the training of the American military was hardly good at the time. Most the military was made up of draftees, not professional soldiers like America has today. It wasn't really until the 80's that America's military excelled here.

Oh, and you do realize those T-72 tanks are kinda old right? That's like saying American arms are consistently better than Russian arms because the F-15/16's hammered the Mig-21/25's the Iraqis had. If a war should arise between the U.S. and China, China would've mass produced its more advanced tanks(the T-90 series) long before then. Besides, it will most likely become an unconventional guerrilla war anyway, so tanks won't matter much.

During the Gulf War America was using M1's, they are the same age as T-72's. There was no excuse for them losing except being inferior.

China mass producing tanks wouldn't be so simple. China's industrial capability would be all but gone by the time America gets done bombing the place.

China mass producing tanks wouldn't be so simple. China's industrial capability would be all but gone by the time America gets done bombing the place.

It's not just that... We'd make more damage today then back in WW2 and Korea because of the near real time intelligence we have at our disposal...

As I state before their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness...
How is one to mass produce something when you have little to no countries willing to give sell resources if you where willing to pay, yet you cant even pay because you�re economy is ruined and you would have trouble supplying and feeding an army the size of Taiwan�s yet you have millions you have to pamper?
I see a coup forming ASAP in chinas case...

Originally posted by dingyibvs

I like eating beef any givien day of the week. smoking cigarettes until i'm blue in the face and drinking until I hit the floor and debating with everyone I know on why we have a poor president. I like strip clubs and the right to bear arms. With reds over here, none of those things would be possible.

Actually, you do realize that most of those are not only possible in China, but also happens way too often for its own good right? Smoking and alcoholism are big social problem in China. And due to the relatively high unemployment rate, many people have nothing better to do than eat, drink, smoke, and complain loudly about the government and its corrupt officials. Now strip clubs and the arms-bearing are not allowed. Strip clubs for obvious reasons, though underground ones along with prostitution isn't all that uncommon(especially if you're rich). And with a population like that and the extremely highly stressful society(think of how hard those chinese parents make their kids study~ and then they still can't get a job), gun-bearing can also be a problem in China.

You didnt get my point, I didnt say these things werent available in China. I was referring to america being a chinese made wasteland. I was reffering we americans would be a third world country if we got invaded by a big enough army. I was refferring to.... as if we got blew the hell up, or shot the hell up, or anything that killed us... now the chinese may birng all that beef, whiskey, and tittie bars over here, but will we good Americans be enjoying them? I dont think so.....