(UK) Government plans travel database , page 2

posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 04:01 PM

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The British government has long since learned that it rules over a highly subservient population, thus any kind of intrusion is easily justified and more easily ratified.

When the Muslim population reaches its predicted levels, they will however face a different situation. That section of the population has its own agenda, as the UK is about to find out.

It's amazing to watch a nation implode in slow motion, if only due to indifference.

An expensive lesson, but one worth paying, at least for the rest of us.

Now_Then

posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 04:03 PM

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Originally posted by skibtz
What is the big deal?

Hmmm heres a hypothetical for you... someone on a computer terminal, low paid, barely trained with no real interest in their job bashing a few details through at 4:55pm Friday while texting friends about their own life... Now multiply that a few times and you may have a life changing error that is a pain in the ass to track... And that is you even actually realise the reason why certain opportunities are no longer afforded you.

mr-lizard

posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 04:38 PM

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Originally posted by bodrul
so the incomputant goverment wants to take more of our details and now Travel arrangements,

*Day One*
List compiled of people traveling to Dubai
along with their Full names and address

*Day Two*
Goverment Loses USB stick/Laptop containing all or partial details

*Day Three*
USB/Laptop found by passer by

anyone see the picture?

the morons cant be trusted with anything

A bloody good pint. They seem to have a habit of 'conveniently' losing vast quantities of personal data, and then have the cheek/ balls to turn around and say 'oh well, it's not our fault we keep losing them, you WILL be choosy about not having a large central database.

As though it's our fault for them losing the data in the first place. They ARE the one's who are breaching data protection laws and the like, and it's us ultimately who suffer.

What next microchips for the elderly? Criminals? The sick? The healthy? The young?

'You cannot start an employment at ***** unless you have a valid ID chip and have re-registered you personal data, Have a wonderful f'ing day, please remember to scan your arse on the way out - Love, your all powerful, all knowing Overlords. x'

blupblup

posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 04:56 PM
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Usually when the government say they "want" to do something, it usually means they've already been doing it for quite a while..

Phone-tapping/SMS/Email reading... anyone?

They're already doing it to some degree I'm sure.

skibtz

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 03:37 AM
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reply to post by blupblup

Absolutely blupblup.

And here is the thing...

...you are all on the system!

Your name
Your address
Your credit card details
Your thoughts
Your personal habits
Your shopping habits
Your work habits
Your personal emails
Your personal messages
Your pictures
Your files

Everything that you do with your computer is traced.

You dont think so?

Your PC has your data. (You trust your pc)
Your ISP has your PC. (You trust your ISP)
Your government has your ISP. (You trust your government not to own your ISP)

You trust too much!

You are owned already.

Now get off of your pc and run to the hills.

If you don't like the system don't use it.

A database of holiday data is nothing compared to what they already have: YOU!

And the best bit about it all, as far the PTB are concerned, is that while you are online fighting against a database that is totally irrelevant in their quest for omnisicence - you are totally ignoring the threat that is already in existence and owns you!

You are fighting the wrong war and the longer you continue to do so the longer they will own you.

[edit on 9/2/2009 by skibtz]

Mike_A

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 03:55 AM
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Originally posted by skibtzIf you don't like the system don't use it.

Isn’t that the point? With the systems that you describe in that post we do have the choice of opting out; I can choose not to use a credit/debit card on whatever purchases I like, I can choose not to use a shop loyalty card, I can choose not to put my photos online. With a central government database the choice is taken away from me for no justifiable reason. The current system is also in reality a number of systems that are largely in private hands and in many cases only temporary. If the government want to know all that stuff about me they have to jump through legal hoops to get it, as it should be. Private companies are also much more vulnerable to litigation should they abuse the information they hold; a mistake from Google that leaks my searches doesn’t also release my bank details; then there’s the cost, if the information is already available why should we put up with the cost to make it a bit simpler for the government to keep tabs on the bad guys?

Edit – Also, just because a lot of my data is accessible now doesn’t mean I’m happy with the situation and it certainly doesn’t mean I want to accept mission creep. I would rather that some of the data that is held is not.

[edit on 9-2-2009 by Mike_A]

skibtz

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 05:02 AM
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Originally posted by Mike_A
Isn’t that the point? With the systems that you describe in that post we do have the choice of opting out; I can choose not to use a credit/debit card on whatever purchases I like, I can choose not to use a shop loyalty card, I can choose not to put my photos online.

Oh dear. You believe that you have a choice.

They already have your credit card details. They already know where you shop. They already know how many loyalty points you have.

Your pc is just one method of getting this information.

Your info is obtained via the transaction information taken in store.

With a central government database the choice is taken away from me for no justifiable reason.

As long as you, and others like you, believe that to be the case then the longer they will own you and all of your information.

They already have you! Fight the existing problem. Not a potential problem.

The current system is also in reality a number of systems that are largely in private hands and in many cases only temporary.

With all due respect, I doubt very much there is anyone here who knows what the 'current' system is or how it is operated.

I will hazard guess though: the current system has, for each person:

DNA - taken from bloods at birth
Name/s
Address/es
Credit card details
Personal habits
Shopping habits
Work habits
Personal emails
Personal messages
Access to personal computer

If the government want to know all that stuff about me they have to jump through legal hoops to get it, as it should be.

Again, as long as you keep believing that you are fighting the wrong enemy.

Let's face facts. Governments are not stupid. They are not incompetent.

They are very very dangerous.

They will let you think they are stupid and/or incompetent (i.e. oops, lost a laptop today, lost a data key last week!) because the more stupid you believe the government to be the more dangerous they become.

Private companies are also much more vulnerable to litigation should they abuse the information they hold; a mistake from Google that leaks my searches doesn’t also release my bank details; then there’s the cost, if the information is already available why should we put up with the cost to make it a bit simpler for the government to keep tabs on the bad guys?

Do you think government is made up of men and women who sit in the government offices all day?

Governments are made up of business people. People who sit on the boards of companies. People who own business and/or companies.

Every now and then government will allow itself to sit in the newspapers, having a war with Google et al, to get some information that they surely do not already have access to.

As long as you keep believing this to be true the longer they will own you.

Also, just because a lot of my data is accessible now doesn’t mean I’m happy with the situation and it certainly doesn’t mean I want to accept mission creep. I would rather that some of the data that is held is not.

That's the spirit. Now what are you going to do about the stuff you are not happy about?

I know the government is dangerous. I know the government has any bit of info on me any time. I know that the government can ruin my life, damage my credit, take my home or even suicide me if it wanted to.

It doesnt need a travel database to do this!

Why are we fighting these media hyped databases et al when the real enemy is already here. It is already inside all of our lives and yet al we can do is moan about what might happen while totally ignoring the now!

Oh well. At least we can have a little laugh knowing that some government cronie is sitting down reading all of this, looking up occasionally to see thermo images of us sat at our pcs having this debate

Mike_A

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 05:33 AM
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Well I don’t have a credit card and I usually pay with cash. My bank may know how much comes in and out but they don’t have records of what I buy.

Originally posted by skibtz
As long as you, and others like you, believe that to be the case then the longer they will own you and all of your information.

How do you figure?

As for the existing vs potential problem, both are something to be concerned about. I’m not limited to objecting to and acting against one or the other. We can resist attempts to increase government control over our personal information whilst trying to limit what they already have.

Originally posted by skibtz
With all due respect, I doubt very much there is anyone here who knows what the 'current' system is or how it is operated.

With all due respect don’t assume the limitations of your own knowledge ring true for others. You can guess what the current system has all you like but if you’re trying to have a sensible debate then sticking to the known facts is probably the best route.

No, there is no one system that holds all the information you have listed for every person and not everyone has the same sets of data recorded. For example, as above it is unlikely that anyone entity has access to my shopping habits because how I purchase things isn’t conducing to easy collection of that data. It is possible to collect that information but would require a great deal of effort. It is unlikely that a local authority is going to try to do it over some unpaid parking tickets but past evidence would suggest that they would have no compunction in doing so if the process was made easy with centralised databasing and legislation compelling private companies to keep extensive records.

Originally posted by skibtz
They (governments[/]) are very very dangerous.

So you think governments are dangerous yet you think new databases or a centralised database is no big deal?

As for what I’m doing about it I try to get involved in any political debate I have both an interest in and knowledge of. I am in touch with anyone I think can help, from MPs to lobby groups.

What do you do?

skibtz

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by Mike_A
Well I don’t have a credit card and I usually pay with cash. My bank may know how much comes in and out but they don’t have records of what I buy.

You said you had a credit card Mike_A.

I can choose not to use a credit/debit card on whatever purchases I like

If you do not have a credit card then you do not have the choice! You just can't use it. No choice there mate.

Actually, I wasn't even thinking that Mike_A has a credit card. I thought you were generalising.

How do you figure?

Ok, if you believe lions are harmless, you would be prepared to walk in to a lions den. Expect to be eaten.

If you believe the government to be harmless, you would be prepared to a part of their society. Expect to be eaten.

As for the existing vs potential problem, both are something to be concerned about. I’m not limited to objecting to and acting against one or the other. We can resist attempts to increase government control over our personal information whilst trying to limit what they already have.

You are assuming all of the information that will be gathered in the 'travel database' is not already be in their possession.

Big mistake IMO.

With all due respect don’t assume the limitations of your own knowledge ring true for others.

Why are you questioning the limits of my knowledge Mike_A?

Could you refrain from the snide/ad hominem remarks please mate

I was simply stating that we have no idea what 'current' society monitoring systems look like. They are probably military-operated giving the government plausible deniability right?

You can guess what the current system has all you like but if you’re trying to have a sensible debate then sticking to the known facts is probably the best route.

Here we go with the 'facts' again!

What is fact or fiction?

In this thread I have been branded naive, gullible and MSM-controlled. Your above statement fits the bill im afraid.

Where do you get your facts from?

The media? Conspiracy forums? Government announcements?

Are these trustworthy?

No, there is no one system that holds all the information you have listed for every person and not everyone has the same sets of data recorded.

And you know this to be fact because?

For example, as above it is unlikely that anyone entity has access to my shopping habits because how I purchase things isn’t conducing to easy collection of that data. It is possible to collect that information but would require a great deal of effort.

And you know this to be fact because?

It is unlikely that a local authority is going to try to do it over some unpaid parking tickets but past evidence would suggest that they would have no compunction in doing so if the process was made easy with centralised databasing and legislation compelling private companies to keep extensive records.

Good. I hate people who do not pay their parking tickets.

So you think governments are dangerous yet you think new databases or a centralised database is no big deal?

Absolutely.

This database will have zero impact. They already have all of our details. This database is a red herring designed to keep the minions busy. Quit fighting this and other databases and fight the real enemy if you really do give a damn.

As for what I’m doing about it I try to get involved in any political debate I have both an interest in and knowledge of. I am in touch with anyone I think can help, from MPs to lobby groups.

What do you do?

I am from the planet Plinky Plonk and have been fighting crime and injustice on planet Earth forever.

Really Mike_A. I could put anything here and you still wouldn't believe me. I do a lot mate - both financially and through actions. I don't talk about much of what I do for reasons that would be obvious once you knew what it was. I am not hard to check out. You should be able send me text in around 15 minutes if you put the effort in.

[edit on 9/2/2009 by skibtz]

Mike_A

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by skibtz
You said you had a credit card Mike_A.

No I didn’t. I said I can choose not to use a credit/debit card, I choose not to. Not for data reasons mind you, just because I don’t think I need one (credit card, I do have a debit card).

If you do not have a credit card then you do not have the choice! You just can't use it. No choice there mate.

Of course it’s a choice, I know what data will be kept and what rights I have and I have several options open to me. By definition it is a choice.

Just like I have a choice now to use whatever method of travel or company that I want to travel with based on the data retention. If a centralised system was set up and all information retained by law then I would be robbed of that right for little justifiable reason.

Ok, if you believe lions are harmless, you would be prepared to walk in to a lions den. Expect to be eaten.

But you believe that there’s a lion around every corner you would always travel in a straight line.

If you start imagining the government has powers you don’t really *know* it has then you diminish your ability to fight against the abuse of powers it does or wants to have.

You are assuming all of the information that will be gathered in the 'travel database' is not already be in their possession.

It doesn’t matter, if it is in their possession then I would want this reversed and if anyone has evidence that they do keep this information then I want them to come forward. If it isn’t I don’t want it to be.

I don’t know whether you are hacking into my computer right now but I’m not going to give you access to my machine just because you might be here already.

Why are you questioning the limits of my knowledge Mike_A?

Not to sound childish but you started it by dismissing anyone arguing against your point of view by saying no one here knows what the current system is despite your insistence that the government already has all the information anyway. I know the law and I know broadly what information is kept and by whom. So don’t tell me I don’t know.

Of course there may be secret surveillance systems out there beyond the scope of what is known but since you can’t prove that there is no point in debating it.

What is fact or fiction? … Where do you get your facts from?

Acts of parliament, common law, select committees, independent reports, international body reports etc.

Where do you get your “they already have all this so there’s no point fighting” facts from?

And you know this to be fact because?

I know the legislation that deals with it.

I’m open to the possibility of the government acting illegally of course but not because you say so. If you had evidence …

This database will have zero impact. They already have all of our details.

And you get these facts from?

I am from the planet Plinky Plonk and have been fighting crime and injustice on planet Earth forever.

Really Mike_A. I could put anything here and you still wouldn't believe me. I do a lot mate - both financially and through actions.

lol, you asked me, don’t get all uppity what I ask you what you do. What do you do? Really.

skibtz

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by Mike_A
No I didn’t. I said I can choose not to use a credit/debit card, I choose not to. Not for data reasons mind you, just because I don’t think I need one (credit card, I do have a debit card).

Mike. You said:

I can choose not to use a credit/debit card on whatever purchases I like

You made it sound like you had a credit card and chose not to use it on whatever purchases you like!

It's ok mate. No need to get all bent out of shape. You said something that could easily be misconstrued. Easily done. We all do it (see below!). Forget about it already. I explained what I thought you meant didn't I?

Geez!

Not to sound childish but - (snip -childish bit - snip) So don’t tell me I don’t know.

You are taking this far too personally Mike. Here is where you may have miscontrued what I had said. What I said was:

I doubt very much there is anyone here who knows what the 'current' system is or how it is operated

Now, unless anyone here is part of the secret services and is in the know then I would doubt very much that anyone here would know what the current system looks like or how it operates.

You see Mike. I like you really. I never insulted you once.

Of course there may be secret surveillance systems out there beyond the scope of what is known but since you can’t prove that there is no point in debating it.

This is where we differ Mike. I do not trust Acts of parliament, common law, select committees, independent reports, international body reports etc. because they are all open to abuse.

Where do you get your “they already have all this so there’s no point fighting” facts from?

We should never stop fighting Mike.

We should step up the fight. In order to do that we need to stop fighting shadows.

don’t get all uppity...What do you do? Really.

Look Mike. I like you. I have not been rude to you. I was not being uppity. I told you that if you did give a stuff about what I do you could have all the answers if you bothered to look.

[edit on 9/2/2009 by skibtz]

Mike_A

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by skibtz

Not to sound childish but - (snip -childish bit - snip) So don’t tell me I don’t know.

You are taking this far too personally Mike. Here is where you may have miscontrued what I had said. What I said was:

I doubt very much there is anyone here who knows what the 'current' system is or how it is operated

Now, unless anyone here is part of the secret services and is in the know then I would doubt very much that anyone here would know what the current system looks like or how it operates.

Yet you are making factual statements for which can not have evidence. Statements such as “This database will have zero impact. They already have all of our details.”

So you can dismiss what anyone else says because they couldn’t know (they can and do, they don’t have to be part of the secret services) but at the same time produce these facts about which no one here supposedly knows.

You’re making things up to support your argument. If you have evidence that all of this data is centrally held by the government then produce at and expose this illegal activity. Otherwise yours position is untenable.

Originally posted by skibtz

Where do you get your “they already have all this so there’s no point fighting” facts from?

We should never stop fighting Mike.

We should step up the fight. In order to do that we need to stop fighting shadows.

How does that answer my question?

If you don’t trust acts of parliament, independent reports or any of the other things I mentioned then where do you get all this information? Don’t avoid the question.

Originally posted by skibtz
I told you that if you did give a stuff about what I do you could have all the answers if you bothered to look.

But that’s bull, stop avoiding the questions and tell everyone what it is you are doing. I’m betting you won’t.

Anonymous ATS

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 10:53 AM
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It's a great idea ! Some corrupt official can sell all that luverly, luverly data to a foreign mafia. What a wonderful purchase for their identity scams !
Then the corrupt official can claim the discs got lost in the post.
Towards a New World Order.
Gordon 'Numpty' Brown.

skibtz

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 12:06 PM
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You are asking me to provide evidence for secret service activity that not even the visible leaders of this country would be privy to?

So does my not providing proof, for whatever reason, mean that I am wrong?

What is it you would like proof for Mike:

DNA Database: boods taken at birth or within 12 weeks for every registered child in the UK - you don't think this is the perfect activity to build your DNA database?

Personal Details Database: I could find out your name, address and telephone number for less £5 within 5 minutes Mike - you don't think the government can?

Credit Details: already stored and accessible by companies - do you honestly believe that the government do not have access to data?

Landline Telephone Calls: the government have already used records to convict

Mobile Calls: the government have already used records to convict

Mobile SMS: the government have already used records to convict

Online Activity: ISPs hold records on all internet activity linking IP address to end user - do you honestly believe that the government do not have access to data?

The government cites national security in order to protect intel sources - there is so much we do not know exists. No proof here I am afraid - just my own brand of common sense.

You are on ATS Mike. Get used to people believing crazy stuff. Use Google to check the above out. I'm not wasting my time doing your leg work. I have said what I believe is happening as far as monitoring goes. If you don't believe it fine.

No one on ATS has provide irrefutable proof of ET's et al yet there are thousands of believers here. What do you want them to do - have them take you to their garage where they have an alien in the fridge?

We are nuts - get over it!

And Mike, when it comes to what I do, as I have said before, get off your arse and looks for yourself. I'm not your maid and I am certainly not plastering what I do on forums making it searchable on Google et al.

You want to know? Then work for it you lazy sod

Mike_A

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 12:28 PM
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You are asking me to provide evidence for secret service activity that not even the visible leaders of this country would be privy to?

So does my not providing proof, for whatever reason, mean that I am wrong?

So let me get this straight you are saying that the government definitely does have all of this information already but you don’t have any evidence and no one can say you are wrong? How does that make any sense to you?

You’re talking big with the “I can know everything about you in five minutes”, “I won’t tell you what I do about this but trust me it’s a lot” but at the end of the day you’ve got no evidence and refuse to go into detail.

As for credit card companies et al holding records, I know and I’ve said this in previous posts but the point is that the government does not have automatic access to all of this information. The process they must go through to get most of this information is part of what hinders abuse and frivolous use; it is complex and can be very expensive. It may also not always be possible, for example not everyone is required to hold their customers data and where they are they may only be able to hold it for a certain period of time. This also allows the public a greater say in the matter, if one company makes it clear that it will only hold your information for 6 months as apposed to the (hypothetical) industry standard 18 months then the customer base can be influence in the matter. However if these intelligence databases and associated legislation are allowed to spread this process would be made far easier allowing for greater abuse.

And Mike, when it comes to what I do, as I have said before, get off your arse and looks for yourself. I'm not your maid and I am certainly not plastering what I do on forums making it searchable on Google et al.

You don’t do jack do you.

Ha, told ya you wouldn’t answer though; maybe I just toddle off to the psychic board.

BTW why has your position changed so much since the beginning of the thread? hmmm

skibtz

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by Mike_A

All the points you raised concerning the OP have been answered in my post above.

As far as finding out your name, address and telephone number in 5 minutes for less than £5, well I am sure that there are people on ATS who could do it in under a minute for free and would wonder why I am wasting a fiver.

Do you doubt this?

If you do you need to stop questioning my beliefs on the capabilities of data control and do some research and actually educate yourself.

I have explained why I will not post what I do. Juvenile jabs won't suddenly get an 'alright alright. I'll tell you!' result. Grow up and work for it Mike.

Like I said, I could tell you anything and you wouldn't believe me.

Of course, when the media circus runs stories about the government fighting court battles to get hold of information you just lap it right up don't you Mike?!

You seem to think that my attitude has changed in this thread. Please explain.

Mike_A

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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You’ve only answered those points with “they know anyway” but you can’t provide the evidence. It doesn’t matter how much you think they probably do it doesn’t make it fact.

I have explained why I will not post what I do. Juvenile jabs won't suddenly get an 'alright alright. I'll tell you!' result.

ROFL YOU ASKED ME!! Why is it so bad for me to ask you back? Is it because it’s just that daft little T-shirt thing in your profile? If that’s you raging against the machine I’d hate to see what you would do to me if I got you really miffed; a flowery pair of briefs with a grenade on it maybe? Oh I’m shivering.

You seem to think that my attitude has changed in this thread. Please explain.

Your first post asked what harm the government could do with these databases, I quote:

I totally agree with stuff like this if it helps to limit the movement of criminals/terrorists et al.

There is clearly a great revulsion to such monitoring of society but I am still puzzled as to why.

Then in later posts this turns into:

Let's face facts. Governments are not stupid. They are not incompetent.

They are very very dangerous.

And

Originally posted by skibtz

Originally posted by Mike_A
Also, just because a lot of my data is accessible now doesn’t mean I’m happy with the situation and it certainly doesn’t mean I want to accept mission creep. I would rather that some of the data that is held is not.

That's the spirit. Now what are you going to do about the stuff you are not happy about?

I know the government is dangerous. I know the government has any bit of info on me any time. I know that the government can ruin my life, damage my credit, take my home or even suicide me if it wanted to.

That’s quite a change imho.

skibtz

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by Mike_A

The tee shirt biz has already saved one life, it's why I set it up in the first place. The biz is very successful and we will be helping to fund more projects this year for people/places who need help. Im not going push it here - read about it as it as it happens on the site. You brought up the tee thing not me - it's against the T&Cs to do so I'm sure but that's not my decision to make. It's actually something that I am very proud and I am a little unsure as to why you are mocking it. However, the flowery briefs with grenade is a fantastic idea and one that i will probably run with - thank you!

It's also not what I was referring to. You need to work a little harder than my ATS profile to know what I am about and what I do.

How does saying that the government is very very dangerous without databases, contradict my saying that the travel database would be an effective method in fighting serious crime or that I find the people's revulsion to monitoring as puzzling?

Your quoting does not make sense - to be expected really as you are making something out of nothing.

The ATS reader is not stupid Mike_A. They will see your word-twisting, as evidenced in your credit card statement and future retractions and come to their own conclusions.

If you want to further discuss my out of work goings-on then U2U me.

If you want to carry on the debate of the OP then please continue.

As an aside - have you ditched your UAV site?

[edit on 9/2/2009 by skibtz]

merkava

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 03:19 PM
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You know what i am sick of this database,DNA,CCTV and undercover BS.

The government mightaswel make us all wear a Helmet with a CCTV cam in it and see what we get up to 24/7.Maybe they should also put a electronic register in our houses so we Sign in and out of it.

Everyday sh!t gets more tighter in this country.First it was under the banner of SAFETY, than CRIME and now TERRORISM.

Mike_A

posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by skibtz

I’m not mocking the business, it looks like a nice little business, I’m mocking your secrecy as if you were some sort of fifth column leader when in actual fact you design shirts.*.

As an aside - have you ditched your UAV site?

WOW! How did you find out about my super secret website Mr Bond? Damn! You looked at my post history didn’t you, you dastardly genius you!

This debate ended when you started claiming truths that you admitted you couldn’t back up. It’d be interesting to take this seriously as I intended but that can’t happen when you’re just going to dismiss anything anyone says because you know that the government already has all this information while at the same time claiming that no one here knows what data the government keeps.

*By the way I’ll be expecting royalties for the grenade briefs idea. You know my address. Actually just stick the money straight into my account, I’m sure your comrades can give you the details if you bung them a fiver.