Tear down this myth!

For conservatives Reagan was god sent. The man was in a sense the perfect conservative candidate to the rightwing base of America. Constantly during his presidency we would hear talk of "small government" "tax cuts" and the need to "put america first" above all else. Being a progressive myself the idea of smaller government, low to zero taxes and more investiment in these United states as opposed to overseas sounds wonderful and I wouldnt mind living in such a world, though it appears that for decades, the rightwing part of the population have been living in a dreamworld. The reality of basic conservative values when applied to an actual presidency is well... none existent.

The truth of the matter is that none of these conservative governments have been able to follow up on those values they preach. Sure, occasionaly they would implement policies catering to these values, but as every rightwing administration demonstrated to us, it would always end up not being a strictly conservative government at all. Reagan is one such example, and among the right here online and in america the man is untouchable.. not a utter of criticism.. no... the man did no wrong during is administration.

Things were perfect. He apparently carried out true conservative values. Right? Well no, he obviously didnt, infact history shows us, not just about Reagan, but about Bush snr, and the obvious Bush jnr, that their governments never upheld true conservative values. Will Bunch wrote a book in particular about the Reagan presidency, and Im reading through it now.. and I tell ya, its sure a breath of fresh air to hear that there are still those that see through the rightwing pritty cover conservatives have held over the man and his administation for years.

www.youtube.com...

Reagan has become totally off limits among the right when it comes to be critical of, and I mean seriously, folks have to be objective, even to their own prefered candidate. In 2000 when Reagan was in his last years of death, it became completely taboo to be critical of the hype and the inaccurate account of his administration during the 80s. Folks such as Rove, limbaugh and Glenn have ever since exploited this fact. I mean what good is your ideology if your not objective? The mans administration is far from what folks prefer to paint it here, and its time people get a reality check.

Some of the myths regarding Reagan:

1) "He was one of the great american presidents of our time"

No actually he never made that rank. The mans character popularity may be up among the conservatives but beyond that the man never gained much ground. During his two terms Reagan held an average approval rating of 63%, for an american president didnt gain much popularity through the years following his presidency as many have made him out to be.

2) "The Reagan years were a time of prosperity"

Well no, during his administration the debt of the US tripled. Yes following the all evil Carter administration conservatives prefer to bring up, Reagan tripled the US debt. Many have stated the fact that Reagan inherited Carters mess, however the truth of the matter is that after 8years in office, the fact the debt shot up 3 fold following Carters administration could not be excused from the Reagan administration.

Also during the Reagan presidency:

-The unemployment rate rose to those comparable to the great depression,
-The deficit which Carter left doubled towards the end of the Reagan administration.
-Interest payments of the already dramatically increased debt to the US rose from $69 million to $169 million.
-The 1991 recession could be traced back to the economic policies of the Reagan administration.
-The tax cuts that was to grow the economy did not show any indication of working. The huge increase in deficit could in show that government revenues did not compensate the tax cuts as is incorrectly claimed by many core conservatives.
-Payroll and Social Security taxes actually increased towards the end of the Bush administration. The tax cuts only benefitted the top 10% of the nation.

3) "Reagan ended the cold war and practiced typical conservative foreign policy"

Although Reagan took the rare step unlike most conservatives to use diplomacy as a weapon against the cold war, the claim that he ended it all is false and evidence of Reagans foreign policy does not show so. The truth of the matter was that the ending of the cold war at the beginning of 90s came about after years and years of diplomacy from various administrations. It started with Kennedy and Nixon with their diplomatic meetings with the communist powers of the USSR and China, and it ended with Reagan. During that time it should also be noted that military spending increased by 40%, which in turn increased government public sectors, which in turn increased government.

In additon Reagan got the United stated involved in the affairs of other states including Nicaragua and Iran.

So does any of praise to Reagan merit any truth?

However misguided some of the praise for the man is, Reagan did some positive things in his government that I will more than happy acknowledge. Reagan took the step of talking with what was suppose to be his enemy, the Soviet Union unlike the conservative governments to follow him. Though the man, as history in reality shows, did not follow in the paths of great presidents. He played the part of the president well, because he was an actor, but to me, this Reagan myth is just something created by republicans to market their brand... and why not? It shouldnt be surprising, though I feel the reality should be noted from time to time.

The 2000 elections were probably the start of this entire Reagan frenzy, Bush of all people praised the man, and yet totally contradicted their praise for the man, for what the man has said during his administration. Even Obama among a few democrats are misguided about the real history of Reagan and his time in office. Though Reagan evidently didnt practice what he preached, the conservatives took everything he said during his presidency as truth, and yet even at this, as seen through the Bush administrations, there seems to be no real truth behind the believes of small government, lower to no taxes and passive foreign policy when it comes to an actual self proclaimed conservative managing the nation.

For all the accusations from conservatives of Obama being just "a talker" or a "messiah" or the "fiscal irresponsible commie" to progressives such as myself (despite his administration is yet to be judged for their full term) there seems to be an almost amnesia when recognizing the hypocrisy in those claims when looking back at the none-objective almost religious praise of Reagan and the Bush administrations from conservatives themselves.

[edit on 6-2-2009 by southern_Guardian]

Yup...

Very good calls!!!

My favorite -

Increased military spending, inflates the government public sector which in turn increases GOVERNMENT???




ya don't say

Deregulation and freemarket economics ,Trickle Down Economics!

Translation.. ,engage in unrestricted fraud and Ponsi schemes !

move your money Offshore! so the greedy US Government,can't spend it on 'the poor'

Government is bad ! as in the the worst thing you can hear is "We're from the gov't and We're here to help!

Translation now that you elected us We will make Damn sure Gov't doesn't work,no downside to this ,they get rich and they 'prove' government doesn't work

Originally posted by invisiblewoman
Deregulation and freemarket economics ,Trickle Down Economics!

Translation.. ,engage in unrestricted fraud and Ponsi schemes !

move your money Offshore! so the greedy US Government,can't spend it on 'the poor'

Government is bad ! as in the the worst thing you can hear is "We're from the gov't and We're here to help!

Translation now that you elected us We will make Damn sure Gov't doesn't work,no downside to this ,they get rich and they 'prove' government doesn't work

Amen sister!

BUSH just did the last line...

In fact killing the government via spending is (now was) one of the main goals of NEOCON ideology.

reply to post by mental modulator


How is it that this is not obvious,especially since many of them actually admit to it!

it's mind boggling ,we just gave a whole bunch of money to the Filthiest of the Rich,enough money to provide health care to everyone in ths country for the next decade ,even if it was for free!

but nooooo,that would be socialism???????????????????????

the only thing NeoCons want to spend like drunken Lords on is War
they are crazy! it's the only way I can explain it

apparently their only hard and fast rule is all money must be wasted and misspent

Originally posted by invisiblewoman
reply to post by mental modulator

 

How is it that this is not obvious,especially since many of them actually admit to it!

it's mind boggling ,we just gave a whole bunch of money to the Filthiest of the Rich,enough money to provide health care to everyone in this country for the next decade ,even if it was for free!

but nooooo,that would be socialism???????????????????????

the only thing NeoCons want to spend like drunken Lords on is War
they are crazy! it's the only way I can explain it

apparently their only hard and fast rule is all money must be wasted and misspent

From what I have read - NEOCON doctrine was to dismantle All the social nets set up by FDR.

Akin to Laissez-faire or let us do

The slogan was - "STARVE THE BEAST"

Starving the beast - ZERO REGULATION did not work -

NEOCON ideology realized that you can kill the "BEAST" (government) by spending it to death.

Countless rows of people voted for this - LITERALLY voted for this economic phuck via DICKBUSHRUMFELD ideology.

WELL he talks like me - thats good enough

Although I would not call REAGAN a NEOCON

BUSH on the other hand...

I tell ya, southern, those were strange times.

I had some New Age type friends who voted for Reagan, because they wanted his "new vision" for America. I had Christian evangelical co-workers vote for him, because Jerry Falwell said to. All the talk of rapture, Satan, born again, and literal Biblical belief got people to vote for someone who had a White House astrologer. Angry white males voted for him, then lost their jobs as Republican ideology was unleashed upon the land.

It was supposed to be a time of "moral clarity", but then we saw Marine Colonel Ollie North lie to Congress, about carrying out funding to help RR's pet project, the Contras.

It was a time of RR heralding the greatness of democracy, yet I remember reading one of RR's campaign directors saying that democracy was just an "illusion", the word to be used in a political campaign to get votes.

It was a time of the bank scandals and bail outs, when con men found a way to rob banks and have the gov't bail out the taxpayer.

Declared war was replaced by Nicaragua, Beirut, and "low intensity conflicts".

The tax code was revised, more for corporations, less for the common taxpayer.

The Immigration Reform and Control Act was enacted, and then ignored by business.

Inflation was brought under control, while house prices sky rocketed.

Reagan the cowboy did not ride into town to save the American farmer, faced with foreclosures.

It was the beginning of the best of times for corporations, and the worst of times for the American middle class.

reply to post by desert


Amen

Star for you

reply to post by southern_Guardian

It started with Kennedy and Nixon with their diplomatic meetings with the communist powers of the USSR and China, and it ended with Reagan. During that time it should also be noted that military spending increased by 40%, which in turn increased government public sectors, which in turn increased government.

Actually, unbiased historians admit that the USSR was driven into bankruptcy by the increased military spending of the US, and the Russian attempts to keep up with us. The USSR spent such a large portion of their GDP on arms, that "butter" suffered badly, to the point that the USSR imploded from within.

Originally posted by southern_Guardian

Some of the myths regarding Reagan:

1) "He was one of the great american presidents of our time"

No actually he never made that rank. The mans character popularity may be up among the conservatives but beyond that the man never gained much ground. During his two terms Reagan held an average approval rating of 63%, for an american president didnt gain much popularity through the years following his presidency as many have made him out to be.

I only have to point out one issue with your argument here. Go ahead and look at an Electoral Map of President Reagan vs. His Opponents, during both of his Elections. President Reagan defeated his Opponent with a Higher Margin than ANY Modern President. He received the Majority in 49 States during his Second Election, which no President, not even the "Sweeping Obama", has EVER come close to Approaching in fantasy nor reality. I was living in Washington, D.C. during his Presidency, and I even visited the White House on an Occasion or Two, and he was Most Certainly a Charismatic, Popular Individual.

2) "The Reagan years were a time of prosperity"

Well no, during his administration the debt of the US tripled. Yes following the all evil Carter administration conservatives prefer to bring up, Reagan tripled the US debt. Many have stated the fact that Reagan inherited Carters mess, however the truth of the matter is that after 8years in office, the fact the debt shot up 3 fold following Carters administration could not be excused from the Reagan administration.

President Carter increased United States INFLATION Exponentially, beyond any amount this Nation had ever witnessed. Due to President Carter, we lost the Panama Canal (A HIGHLY Vital Asset), Oil Prices Skyrocketed, Supply Plummeted, and Product Prices Exploded. We are still witnessing the after effects of President Carter and his failure to this very day (Just look at Oil, and how even when the Barrel drops to a Past Price, the Gas Prices are still Triple their Original relative Value).

Also, President Reagan created 22 Million NEW Jobs! President Obama is HOPEFUL just to be able to SAVE, and Create 3 Million Jobs during his Presidency. Do you realize how significant that is? The man of "Hope", and "Change" is finding himself extremely lucky if he can simply save/create 1/7 of the Brand New Jobs which President Reagan brought about. President Reagan also dropped the Over Inflated Marginal Tax Rates from President Carter's 70% +, down to 20%. Show me ANY President who has created as many jobs as President Reagan, and I guarantee you that President Reagan is amongst the Top 5 in our Entire History as a Nation. Even President Clinton, an individual whom many Democrats cite as a Huge Economic Success, followed the VERY same Principles of President Reagan. President Clinton was not an idiot, he knew which system worked, and he continued the General Idea of "Reaganomics", while simply wrapping it in his own customized package.

Also during the Reagan presidency:

-The unemployment rate rose to those comparable to the great depression,
-The deficit which Carter left doubled towards the end of the Reagan administration.
-Interest payments of the already dramatically increased debt to the US rose from $69 million to $169 million.
-The 1991 recession could be traced back to the economic policies of the Reagan administration.
-The tax cuts that was to grow the economy did not show any indication of working. The huge increase in deficit could in show that government revenues did not compensate the tax cuts as is incorrectly claimed by many core conservatives.
-Payroll and Social Security taxes actually increased towards the end of the Bush administration. The tax cuts only benefitted the top 10% of the nation.

Okay, first off, how about sticking to an individual Topic per section? It makes it a little easier to formulate a focused reply. As for the "Deficit", you have no one to trace that to but President Carter. He stacked the Inflation into a Recession, and it was President Reagan who averted a Depression and brought us back as Prosperous as ever (Through a Major Tax Cut NO Less). The Across the Board Tax and Rate Cut created an Explosion in Businesses and Employment, and that lead towards a "Trickle Down" of Monetary Funds (Towards the Employees of the Working Middle Class).

3) "Reagan ended the cold war and practiced typical conservative foreign policy"

Although Reagan took the rare step unlike most conservatives to use diplomacy as a weapon against the cold war, the claim that he ended it all is false and evidence of Reagans foreign policy does not show so. The truth of the matter was that the ending of the cold war at the beginning of 90s came about after years and years of diplomacy from various administrations. It started with Kennedy and Nixon with their diplomatic meetings with the communist powers of the USSR and China, and it ended with Reagan. During that time it should also be noted that military spending increased by 40%, which in turn increased government public sectors, which in turn increased government.

President Reagan did in fact bring about the Collapse of the Soviet Union, just ask the very man who came to respect him so much (Mikhail Gorbachev). OF Course we cannot forget the extremely important contributions of President Kennedy, President Nixon, and oh so many others. As a matter of fact, I dare say that President Reagan built upon his experience of having witnessed how these other Presidents dealt with the U.S.S.R. To suggest however that President Reagan was not at least the "Straw That Broke the Camel's Back", is to be disingenuous. He was extremely Smart, Tough, and Prepared. President Reagan knew how to deal with a Russian, like a Russian. He was not weak, he stood by his words, and he spoke frankly. These were amongst some of the many qualities which garnered him the Respect of Many Russian Politicians, and Military Leaders.

You also forget that President Reagan approached the Soviet Union in a Multi-Prong Fashion. He worked towards driving up the Price of Oil being Imported into the Soviet Union, then, while going about this he began a MAJOR Arms build-up, which began to Outpace the Russians until we were roughly a Decade or Two ahead of them in terms of MIL, Space, and Science Technologies. The Soviet Union, as a result of such, began to lose Moral, Focus, and Business. This in turn lead towards a Major loss of Unity within the C.C.C.P, and Independent States began to lean towards secession. Soon thereafter, the "Union" Collapsed.

In additon Reagan got the United stated involved in the affairs of other states including Nicaragua and Iran.

You should check your facts there. President Carter, through his weak approaches and apparent gullibility, is the one who lead us into the major Crisis with Iran. He is the President under whose watch we had 52 Americans taken Hostage in Tehran, for 444 Days. It was President Reagan, through his Tough Stances, and Frank Speaking Ability, that this Crisis was eventually brought to a Positive Conclusion.

As for Nicaragua, that was nothing more than a struggle to take on, and defeat, Communist Guerillas in Central America. We were attempting to Prevent the further spread of Communism, in case you might have forgotten that. Aside from the "Scandal", it was a righteous cause to keep Democracy alive in our Neck of the Woods.

So does any of praise to Reagan merit any truth?

However misguided some of the praise for the man is, Reagan did some positive things in his government that I will more than happy acknowledge. Reagan took the step of talking with what was suppose to be his enemy, the Soviet Union unlike the conservative governments to follow him. Though the man, as history in reality shows, did not follow in the paths of great presidents. He played the part of the president well, because he was an actor, but to me, this Reagan myth is just something created by republicans to market their brand... and why not? It shouldnt be surprising, though I feel the reality should be noted from time to time.

The 2000 elections were probably the start of this entire Reagan frenzy, Bush of all people praised the man, and yet totally contradicted their praise for the man, for what the man has said during his administration. Even Obama among a few democrats are misguided about the real history of Reagan and his time in office. Though Reagan evidently didnt practice what he preached, the conservatives took everything he said during his presidency as truth, and yet even at this, as seen through the Bush administrations, there seems to be no real truth behind the believes of small government, lower to no taxes and passive foreign policy when it comes to an actual self proclaimed conservative managing the nation.

For all the accusations from conservatives of Obama being just "a talker" or a "messiah" or the "fiscal irresponsible commie" to progressives such as myself (despite his administration is yet to be judged for their full term) there seems to be an almost amnesia when recognizing the hypocrisy in those claims when looking back at the none-objective almost religious praise of Reagan and the Bush administrations from conservatives themselves.

[edit on 6-2-2009 by southern_Guardian]

My family personally held company with the Reagans, during his time in the White House, and I cannot tell you just how wrong you are. They were amongst the Greatest Americans I have ever known, full of Morality, Courage, Kindness, Compassion, Decency, and Logic. It matters little what you think, for I know the Truth as I witnessed it firsthand.

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen


I understand that are a family friend I liked Death Valley Days Reagan I'm sure he was a charming guy and unlike the last administration,wasn't evil

But he did us no favors,sorry just true

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
I only have to point out one issue with your argument here. Go ahead and look at an Electoral Map of President Reagan vs. His Opponents, during both of his Elections. President Reagan defeated his Opponent with a Higher Margin than ANY Modern President.

And hows this significant? Are we to assume the performance of every president and his administration according to what he got in his first presidential run? Considering Nixon got more states when he ran, and considering Nixons legacy, I dont think thats an accurate argument on your side.

He received the Majority in 49 States during his Second Election, which no President, not even the "Sweeping Obama", has EVER come close to Approaching in fantasy nor reality.

Yes and meanwhile folks were getting their tax cuts and being happy bout it, the debt, the future increases in other taxes and the deficit continued to climb. Reagan didnt bring america up with his "fiscal conservatism" ploy, he just continued to create more debt by tax cutting and development at a time that this should have been cut back. In looks to me as though the man made his presidency look good with all his backroom spending, and then waited to leave this mess to be passed onto the next administration.

Ofcourse he got the hands up at the time. Nobody knew he was just piling more onto the junk from the 70s, they assumed the economy was magically fine because he was giving tax cuts. Little did folks know at the time he was just passing the crap over to the next two administrations.

I was living in Washington, D.C. during his Presidency, and I even visited the White House on an Occasion or Two, and he was Most Certainly a Charismatic, Popular Individual.

Oh yes.... so because you think he was a "charismatic popular individual", this automatically counters any reality of how he managed his administration? But when it comes to Obama, this man is only two weeks into his presidency following one of the worst presidents in history, his inherited the biggest debt since WW2, has a $200 million a day war that has to end, and was a popular charismatic individual to many americans, yet by the same folks who worship Reagan with no end, Obama is somehow guilty of things his yet to do? Hypocrisy nineteen.

President Carter increased United States INFLATION Exponentially, beyond any amount this Nation had ever witnessed.

The inflation rate snowball growth could be traced back to when Nixon started his administration. Check the stats. Now ofcourse Im not excusing Carter for his part in the economic mess during that time, but reality is that history shows this mess occured well before Carter and Reagan greatly contributed to it. In 76' Carter was elected for the exact same reason Reagan was, anger with the last party in power, which was Republican Ford. During Ford the mess was already well into his administration, Carter just didnt fix it as promised, neither did Reagan. They both made it worse and it took until the Clinton administration to be ended.

Now you folks have an apparent habit of excusing Reagans lack of "fiscal conservativeness" with last administration. To be frank if thats case, If we are to use that excuse for the economic mess then you should read your history books because it started well before Carter took office. In all fairness Reagan had 8years to fix the mess, and threw around his "fiscal conservative" talk like anything, and like those rightwing administrations to follow, he never showed for it.

Due to President Carter, we lost the Panama Canal (A HIGHLY Vital Asset),

Asset? Its not our land. Must we occupy all major geographics points of the world for our own benefits? Its not our right. We stick to our own, and classic republican conservative values are firm over foreign neutrality for these United states. Damn straight we lost Panama, because its not our land. We're a democracy, not the world police, not an empire. Where do you fellas get off preaching american imperialism then proclaim true conservativism. Seriously.

The whole "Carters big bad administration" talk going around the conservative base is mostly regarding the fact we didnt act like an empire. Which doesnt make sense because we're not an empire. We're a Republic.

We have no business in Iraq, no reason. Its costing us $200 million a day.
We have no business in the affairs of other nations unless its diplomatic.
We are not the police of the world.
You are not a true conservative if you support imperial neoconservative police

[edit on 7-2-2009 by southern_Guardian]

reply to post by southern_Guardian

We have no business in Iraq, no reason. Its costing us $200 million a day. We have no business in the affairs of other nations unless its diplomatic. We are not the police of the world.

I could not agree more.

I also believe that all spending should be accounted for with cuts elsewhere or by taxes.

The rest of your posts...I can't dispute them. I was a bit young during the reagan era and i haven't paid much attention to politics other than the last 6 months or so. I've done a lot of reading and watched/listened to tons of news that I never cared to bother with before and i've learned quite a bit. But what i've learned most is to be objective to my own beliefs and others. Once people learn to do this they will see things SO MUCH differently.

That's when i realized how disgusting it is to hear both sides expose each other for the frauds they are.

I don't believe either party has done justice to it's people. Both are further exposed everyday to be frauds, liars, tax cheats, and on the take.

Oil Prices Skyrocketed,

Where were you when oil reached an all time high in 06'? 07'? Oh wait this was a conservative president, you hold double standards in that regard.

Had we elected McCain, the same scenario with Carter would happen under warhawk mccain. Same deal with Iran.

Supply Plummeted, and Product Prices Exploded. We are still witnessing the after effects of President Carter and his failure to this very day (Just look at Oil, and how even when the Barrel drops to a Past Price, the Gas Prices are still Triple their Original relative Value).

Wonderful, and as this mess can be traced back to 2003, where Obama has only held two weeks and Bush the rest of the years. I think we have a strong case that once again, the "fiscal conservative" ploy failed. Instead we see the very "socialist" policies conservatives are so against that are taken to fix this mess.... under their conservative government.

Also, President Reagan created 22 Million NEW Jobs!

Clinton created 22 millions jobs, decreased debt for the first time in decades and left $559 billion in surplus. Reagan created 22 million jobs in turn to triple our debt left from the Carter administration and only eventually increase other taxes besides income taxes. In addition those 22 million jobs were lower wage jobs, like you know McDonalds. Great.

Tell me were you old enough to remember the Reagan years?

President Obama is HOPEFUL just to be able to SAVE, and Create 3 Million Jobs during his Presidency.

Obama is yet to complete a term as president.
Obama has been left with the largest debt, economic troubles since WW2 and a $200 million a day war with no reason or end.

Do you realize how significant that is? The man of "Hope", and "Change" is finding himself extremely lucky if he can simply save/create 1/7 of the Brand New Jobs which President Reagan brought about.

Obama is yet to complete his term as president.
Reagan has done 8years and hasnt proved any effectiveness or "fiscal responsibility" he so spoke about.

Ill give Obama his chance in term. Reagan had two terms to prove himself, and as history shows, wioth all the "fiscal" talk, he never proved anything.

Show me ANY President who has created as many jobs as President Reagan,

Clinton, and they were actual jobs, not just low wage one. He also for the first time curbed debt and he left over $500 billion in surplus. What did Reagan do for us? the man tripled our debt and just increased other taxes to componsate for the lowering of income taxes. Folks at the time loved the man without knowing the crap piling up behind the whitehouse, waiting for the next administration to take over. Rightwingers still worship him to no end and blame Carter for everything, and I mean everything leading to this day Folks should really look closer.

and I guarantee you that President Reagan is amongst the Top 5 in our Entire History as a Nation.

One of the most popular presidents, in particular among conservatives? True. One of the greatest presidents? False, and history shows why.

Even President Clinton, an individual whom many Democrats cite as a Huge Economic Success, followed the VERY same Principles of President Reagan.

Clinton was called a commie by conservatives during the early 90s and even Reagan accused the man of being a "commie".... typical I must say.. Clinton followed a more centrist liberal approach that Obama intends to follow as well, the Hillary Clinton intended to follow. He still has his term to prove himself, and thus far, middle leftist angry with some of his decisions frankly thats only a pure example of what he has in store. So by your account, what Reagan and his followers so opposed and labelled as "far left disasterous economics" under Clinton were actually wrong.

Okay, first off, how about sticking to an individual Topic per section? It makes it a little easier to formulate a focused reply. As for the "Deficit", you have no one to trace that to but President Carter.

The economic mess was around well before the Carter administration, thats why Ford lost, because he was blamed for this mess that could be traced all the way back to Nixon. Conservatives feel the need to blame carter because well... of the nearly 40 years of debt, there were only two Democratic administrations, Carter and Clinton, the rest all republican. This economic mess could be traced back to the very beginning of the 70s. Carter is the only other democratic president conservatives can cry wolf over and lay all of this on. They know they cant on Clinton.

No doubt, Carter is among those responsible, but so was Reagan who dramatically tripled debt falled Carter and so was Bush snr and Jnr. Clinton was the only one that managed to curb this mess and actually create a surplus. The fact conservatives just continously lay all this mess on Carters mere 4years in office is, well cheap, and holds no ground.

The fact that conservatives were more than happy to put forward impeachment charges to Bill clinton because of some affair, but not for Bush who lied about a war that cost us over a trillion more in debt, this is a pure example of hypocrisy among most. There are some conservatives for have the balls to see things for what they, its time the rest take that step.

President Reagan did in fact bring about the Collapse of the Soviet Union, just ask the very man who came to respect him so much (Mikhail Gorbachev).

The collapse of the Soviet Union came in part to the inevitability of their economy failing due to their military spending, and in part due to the will of the people for democracy and years of diplomacy from the kennedy and Nixon administrations. Reagan just happened to come just in time when the inevitability of the collapse came into place. And it is fact that he contributed to the end of the cold war with diplomacy, but definatly not by himself. Thats a fabricated fantasy many in the conservative base have come to believe.


[edit on 7-2-2009 by southern_Guardian]

reply to post by David9176


I can understand the bitterness towards both parties. They BOTH have their debt to the american people. Obviously I have my own opinions as a liberal, but Im more than happy to agree that both sides have their hands dirty over the last few decades.

Originally posted by southern_Guardian

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

President Carter increased United States INFLATION Exponentially, beyond any amount this Nation had ever witnessed.

[edit on 7-2-2009 by southern_Guardian]

zfacts.com...

AgentNineteen - I hope you are better at being an agent than backing REAGAN-

nice guy - I got to know him when he was sick... Heck I used to see him couple times a week when I would hang with his nutty grandson. His grandson would through leaves in the pool and say grandpa there are leaves in the pool. Ronny would get the net and clean them out. Then the grandson would throw the leaves back in the pool and repeat, ad nasium. Sometimes ten times in one day...


zfacts.com...

How could Reagan mistake the lowest national debt for the highest?

He forgot inflation and forgot the US was growing—size matters.
This graph compares the size of the Gross National Debt (the blue line, $T) with a typical part of the U.S. economy — spending on furniture. The vertical line (1979) is when Reagan got it backwards.
As can be seen furniture spending was at an "all time record high" in 1979, just like national debt. Was America going crazy on furniture? Was the debt going crazy? No. No. The country was just getting bigger and richer, and dollars were worth less. The debt was actually shrinking relative to the national income. The most popular national debt web sites are still making Reagan's mistake.
The debt grew rapidly during World War II, but its growth during peace-time prosperity starting in 1982 was without precedent.

zfacts.com...

National Debt History (Graph): White House data show the gross national debt hit a 47 year low just as President Reagan was taking office. It climbed steadily under Reagan and G. H. W. Bush, declined under Clinton and made a quick U-turn under G. W. Bush.

By the way Z facts uses FEDERAL data -

And Reagan Created 16 million jobs per three searches in a row.

SG Clinton created- 22.5 million jobs—the most jobs ever created under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous 12 years. Of the total new jobs, 20.7 million, or 92 percent, were in the private sector.

The point is he was the first president in modern history to grow debt while not at war.


Agent19

I don't mind if you chose to by a righty - but please do not ignore the facts.

Facts are not a matter of opinion...

The facts are - OF the last four last presidents only one has reduced the NDI.

The facts are REAGAN and BUSHII created a new benchmark in debt accumulation.

These are a few of the facts - if it does not bother you fine... But the fact that they do not support your argument does not make the facts false.

I can not understand why you are so willing to over look ACTUAL record keeping?





[edit on 7-2-2009 by mental modulator]

reply to post by southern_Guardian


Alls I knows is Reagan was a fan of the movie 'Back to the Future', which is why his face was a re-occuring character in BTTF2, he started Starwars, my dad worked on it and when it was mentioned on the x-files that it never was fully developed my dad disagreed heheh, anyway what myth do you want dispelled, that he was a good guy? that's no myth.

President Reagan may, like every other world leader have faults but I will never forgot the friend he was to Britain during The Falklands Wars. With Cap Weinburger, Reagan ensured that a long standing ally, got the help and support it needed to take back The Falklands.

My dad was from RR's generation. He and RR were similar in looks, charm, romanticism and gentlemanly qualities. RR could deliver a line in his unique way, whether it was in Hollywood or Washington.

This thread certainly is not about disparaging a personality but rather the myths. Elections are not about one person but about wresting power from the opposition. There ARE ideological differences to parties; ends (fringes?) of the parties anchor this ideology, but the party itself can float left, right, or center.

Since the advent of tv and advertising on tv, parties have used personality to gain votes. RR was a HUGE personality.

Here's more of what I remember from the 1980's. The idea of taking wealth off shore was big. This has morphed into not only corporations keeping money out of the US economy, but immigrant workers sending billions of earnings out of country. The 1980's set the stage for these scenarios.

The business of anti-union consultants and union busting began in earnest in those years, to wear down the American worker and let corporations wrest power from the worker, so the corporation could do what it wanted in the name of maximum profit.
The stage was being set back then for an unregulated global economy, as American jobs were starting to go elsewhere (a trickle out economy). Even the fall of the Berlin Wall, meant that businesses had a great supply of cheap labor, in the formerly Soviet Block countries.

Clinton created 22 millions jobs, decreased debt for the first time in decades and left $559 billion in surplus.

No, actually when Clinton became President, the Federal Debt was around 4 trillion dollars, when he left office it was around 6 trillion dollars. The debt never once decreased during his 8 years in office. The Budget Deficit however, did decrease during his terms, largely in part to the reforms shoved through Congress by the GOP during 1995-1998. However, the last three budget years for Reagan had these deficits:
1987-- 149,730,000,000
1988-- 155,178,000,000
1989-- 152,639,000,000

Under Reagan the Congress passed Gramm Rudman Hollings, which was designed to reduce the deficit, and it was working..until his successor raised taxes and his Congress killed GRH which caused the deficit to skyrocket.

Clinton's first three budget years were:
1994-- 203,186,000,000
1995-- 163,953,000,000
1996-- 107,431,000,000

Argue all you want to, but the fact remains that during Reagan's last three years and during the time that the GOP was battling Clinton the budget deficits were dropping. Or dont you remember Clinton throwing his hissy fits and shutting down the government rather than negotiating with the GOP on the budget?