Britain accuses Bush team of threat over terror case

Originally posted by phil29

I thank you for your honesty,at the end of the day the uk is a small country and is punching well above it's weight. Let's face it most Americans see the British as a joke,to be treated as equal or with any respect is far too much to hope for.

The UK has always punched above it's weight, that's what makes it Great Britain. Its pound for pound world champ for the past 1000 years. If you can't repsect that your a fool. Time tells the tale, you've only been on top 50 years, and your already slipping.

Its not uncommon that Americans look down on Europeans. I cannot really care, but what they forget is that Britain, the Netherlands were world powers for ages while America has been a superpower for only 60-70 years and it doesn't look like they are gonna be around as superpower for another 60 years. Therefore, some humbleness would be more appropriate then this cocky arrogance of some.

waterboarding versus our prisoners getting beheaded..........fair trade off I guess.

Originally posted by Victoria 1
I think they should die without trial. And you say it like Bush was there and did it. You do know that he wasn't right? Or are you that stupid? Another funny thing is how countries are so anti-american, but when their country is in trouble who do they call first???? The USA! And that is because they can't do anything on their own. And besides waht britian calls torture is probably not giving them advanced health care and 4 meals a day. Don't speak on subjects that you have no evidence about, it makes you look STUPID!

Wow… ha ha ha
Sorry…
Flash back to pagan days there lol (more like Neanderthal)..yea ok m8 like "kill em all an let god sort em out" wonder who said that

yea big shock to ya that there’s actually bonafide evidence of American bullying, so what…

whats new anyways, just about every country can be guilty of that accusation. Most smaller countries get balled out for that kind of atrocity, Germany, Bosnia, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Saudi Arabia, Russia, N Ireland, Afghanistan, Pakistan...anywhere with stan...including Japan…

O sorry m8… I was getting mixed up with my ..ooooo you know the one..that CIA conspiracy that they were overthrowing legit democratic governments and bullying their way through the UN to get their “piece of pie”
Wake up m8, no offence, God I luv sarcasm

Peace
Kirky

Originally posted by phil29

I thank you for your honesty,at the end of the day the uk is a small country and is punching well above it's weight. Let's face it most Americans see the British as a joke,to be treated as equal or with any respect is far too much to hope for.

The UK has always punched above it's weight, that's what makes it Great Britain. Its pound for pound world champ for the past 1000 years. If you can't repsect that your a fool. Time tells the tale, you've only been on top 50 years, and your already slipping.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I’m afraid your myopic Royal Britannia flag waving is incorrect, but applaudable if in a somewhat juvenile fashion. Fact. The British Government will facilitate anything or any measure that big bully Uncle Sam requires, period… … or Little Bully Bulldog will have his botty smacked.

It’s a game that being going on long before any of us were spawn m8.

The two judges are calling it like they see it bless em. But alas…Just tiny little pawns that can be “acquired or check mated” off the board when the need or justification requires it.

Big picture m8, take off your blinkers and pull out your earplugs.

Peace

Kirky


[edit on 5-2-2009 by kirky]

Originally posted by Victoria 1
Another funny thing is how countries are so anti-american, but when their country is in trouble who do they call first???? The USA! And that is because they can't do anything on their own. it makes you look STUPID!

Moderator Note: Please Review Civility & Decorum is Requested

[edit on 5-2-2009 by Skyfloating]

Ok so tell me m8...lately...whos actually been on the telephone to the Whitehouse complaining and wanting another war sorted out...
whoops there I go again, and theres me thinking thats why we had the UN,..oh yea..USA, I see the correlation of your input.. silly me. If they wont start em, by god my stars an stripes we'll finish them..

Figures
Peace
Kirky



[edit on 5-2-2009 by kirky]

[edit on 5-2-2009 by kirky]

Originally posted by Victoria 1
I never understood all this worry about the torture of terrorists. Who gives a crap. I think they should die without trial.

There you go! In fact I think YOU should kill them yourself!

Maybe puncture their stomachs with an ice pick and watch them bleed out?

Yeah! Go Victoria!!! Wooooot.

O, he wasn´t a terrorist you say? Well, better safe than sorry huh?

The British Government will facilitate anything or any measure that big bully Uncle Sam requires, period… … or Little Bully Bulldog will have his botty smacked.

I dont think so. The UK would probably issue a threat to the US if they threatened to leak our intelligence secrets. I think the UK establishment was more than happy to follow the US in Iraq, because of all that oil and money. Let them do all the hard work, BP and Shell will claim some nice contracts . Recent history also proves you wrong, we refused to help the US in Vietnam, we fought alone in the Falklands, and we went against the US over the Suez Canal.

Originally posted by thomasblackraven

Britain accuses Bush team of threat over terror case

www.chicagotribune.com

Two of Britain's most senior judges accused the US on Wednesday of having threatened to withhold intelligence from the British government if it released information about the alleged torture of a terrorism suspect currently being held at Guantanamo Bay.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Shame on us.

Someday we will look back on these days and wonder how this could of happened.

I hope there will a accounting and people called to task.

Victoria 4.2 is available at Daz3d.. she has been much improved upon

There is nothing shameful about it.

When to very close governments engage in an agreement on sharing secrets, like the US and UK have had in places for decades, the foundation of that trust is based on one sole, solitary fact: that each nation, regardless of the content of the information, will respect the classification and controls of the originating nation.

That trust is the bedrock in which intelligence sharing agreements are based. One nation cannot simply pick and choose which secrets it will protect, and which ones it will throw to the press. I am absolutely sure that the US has on many occasions discovered information, received via British intelligence, that have angered American lawmakers and what not.

The British judicial system wants to break that trust, for the sake of one man of questionable background. I would submit that no one man, irregardless of his stature or identity, is worth risking that kind of sesitive, long-standing international relationship. The kind of intelligence that is regularly shared is the kind of info that keeps British soldiers, sailors, and airmen alive on the front line. We are under no obligations to share our carefully collected intelligence with anyone but ourselves, but we do share it with the UK because we trust them. They have not ever given us reason to question that trust, and we respect that.

Now, if British judges can simply extract any piece of US intelligence, shared in confidence, to meet their judicial requirements, over the objections of the US, then I say we have every right to warn the UK that future sharing may be limited, or placed in jeopardy entirely. Why wouldn't we?

The proper route would be for the British government to lobby the US government to declassify the information. That is, of course, if the British government even supports that position, despite what a few judges have to say.

There is a much larger issue at hand then whether or not some sketchy character got arrested, jailed, and ended up with his head dunked in water more that a few times. Last time I checked, he was still alive and kicking. I hope the same can be said for the British servicemen and women who rely on US intelligence to stay out of harm's way.

Oh, and another thing. Once a precedence has been set, where does it stop? This time it's a kidnapped and tortured man. What if next time it's the capabilities of our new F-22, or our war plans against Iran? Once someone decides they are willing to compromise classified information entrusted to them, especially if that decision is based on their "moral interpretation" of the information, then it's a very slippery slope to the next item, and the next, and the next.

It the UK wants to take the moral high ground to appear popular this election cycle, fine. Just don't expect the spigot to remain open......

reply to post by thomasblackraven


Well I say let them withhold the info, I mean it's not like they could have much to tell us, the CIA didn't know the Berlin wall was coming down until someone in Langley switched on CNN and saw it on there, then there was the whole WMD in Iraq thing.

I say we just get on with it on our own and see what happens not like America did much to stop the IRA in the 70's & 80's fund raising to buy arms and the FBI and CIA must have know what was Going on there but was that information passed on ??

Oh and the guy is not a British subject (technically there are no citizens of Grate Britain) but a resident of Great Britain, he is an Ethiopian, not that, that means he deserved what happened to him.

Originally posted by rogue 9
reply to post by thomasblackraven

 

Well I say let them withhold the info, I mean it's not like they could have much to tell us, the CIA didn't know the Berlin wall was coming down until someone in Langley switched on CNN and saw it on there, then there was the whole WMD in Iraq thing.

I say we just get on with it on our own and see what happens not like America did much to stop the IRA in the 70's & 80's fund raising to buy arms and the FBI and CIA must have know what was Going on there but was that information passed on ??

Oh and the guy is not a British subject (technically there are no citizens of Grate Britain) but a resident of Great Britain, he is an Ethiopian, not that, that means he deserved what happened to him.

What? Then why in my passport does it say "British Citizen"?

This thread has depressed me. Two governments sly and underhand with their own agendas. Most people on this site question their government and believe it to be corrupt but when push comes to shove it ends up becoming a slanging match between two different cultures and who does the mud stick too, the people not the governments. I can not stand American foreign policy the last few years, I equally cant stand the British foreign policy either, when will we realise that war and torture dont solve problems, just a shame theres so much profit in it.

Whoever said we should just kill terrorists without trial should be ashamed, what ends up constituting terrorist maybe one day a government official will knock on your door and say "we believe you have been questioning your governments motives on ATS we see this as a form of terrorism" and then shoot you on your doorstep.

Originally posted by Victoria 1
Give me a break! It is sick how dumb people are. First of all who the hell thinks the Brits should have a say in anything! They are soooo dumb and liberal that their cops don't carry guns. It is amazing how stories get turned around and are so misleading. You know what all this is? He said, she said. I never understood all this worry about the torture of terrorists. Who gives a crap. I think they should die without trial. And you say it like Bush was there and did it. You do know that he wasn't right? Or are you that stupid? Another funny thing is how countries are so anti-american, but when their country is in trouble who do they call first???? The USA! And that is because they can't do anything on their own. And besides waht britian calls torture is probably not giving them advanced health care and 4 meals a day. Don't speak on subjects that you have no evidence about, it makes you look STUPID!

Moderator Note: Please Review Civility & Decorum is Requested

[edit on 5-2-2009 by Skyfloating]

WOW you must feel like a patriot lol, a person talking tough behind his computer because his country happen to have most weapons of mass destruction just makes me laugh, especially when they invade other countries for having weapons of mass destruction.

You don't know what torture is, you have never experience it, you have only seen it on TV where the American hero's act like it is nothing, they are Americans so they can handle it. This is not a movie, get off your ass, your computer and go out for a walk, go try to start a fight with a random stranger, experience life, see what happens. Aren't you sick of watching others all your misrable life?

Internal records obtained by The Post point to wider problems beyond the Abu Ghraib prison and demonstrate that some coercive tactics used at Abu Ghraib have shown up in interrogations elsewhere in the war effort. The documents also show more than twice as many allegations of detainee abuse - 75 - are being investigated by the military than previously known. Twenty-seven of the abuse cases involve deaths; at least eight are believed to be homicides. ...

27 killed from torture, but ofcurse you are too patriot to believe this information, you believe what your government tell you to believe. Like the fact that we only raped the guys in Abu Ghraib, that's all. When they say American are getting more and more stupider, they are right, lazy, fat, now most of their shows and advertisements are about how to loose weight.

I agree with Pyros;

This is a bit of a paradox with neither party being in the wrong (not the torture, the demanding the intelligence is kept secret!).

The court is of course well within its rights to demand the UK government disclose what they know of Binyam Mohamed’s treatment. Who would deny that?

The US is well within its rights to demand they don’t. After all you can’t share secret intelligence with a partner without knowing whether they’re going to make it public or not.

The UK government is right to keep schtum. They can’t risk US/UK intelligence sharing, it’s just too damn important.


Not an easy way out of this paper bag. The only thing I can think of from a British government perspective is for the UK to propose working with the US to produce an abridged version of this summary omitting any potentially sensitive information. But to do this very publicly, thereby handing the ball over to the US administration; the UK doesn’t release the intelligence, pleases the judges by attempting to make progress on their ruling and the Obama administration is put under pressure to prove that there really has been change. If nothing happens then it would be down to the US unwillingness to compromise.

That is of course assuming the British government has no reason to want this information kept secret…

For the sake of clarity, Binyam Mohamed is not, and never has been, a British Citizen.

He was an Ethiopian national who applied (as thousands of others have done) to the UK for political asylum, in his case from threat of torture in Ethiopia. In 1994 was granted leave to remain in the UK. He was never granted, nor offered, UK citizenship.

He left the UK in June 2001 for Afghanistan and Pakistan, allegedly to attempt to kick a drug habit, as before the US invasion in October 2001 Afghanistan was narcotics-free (ah those far-off days).

He was arrested at Karachi Airport by Pakistani security forces on 10 April 2002 as a 'suspected terrorist and AQ sympathiser': well, being non-local and having been in Afghanistan at that time, anyone with his profile was arrested. He claims he was then confined and tortured in a number of different locations in Afghanistan and Morocco and ended up in Guantanamo in 2004.

You can find out a bit more about him here:

www.telegraph.co.uk...

or research other online sources.

The UK govrnment in fact owes no legal obligation to Mr. Mohamed, as he is not and never has been a UK national. They are simply concerned at the allegations of torture by the US authorities in Cuba and at other locations, for which there is substantial evidence. We're not just talking about 'waterboarding' here: what is alleged is the kind of torture used by the Gestapo, or by Saddam in the worst years in Iraq. As routine. That's right, by US government agencies, in the C21.

Why the US Government feels the need to cover this up, and threaten a broadly 'friendly' government who is asking questions about it, is astounding. With all Obama's pre-election promises about 'change' and closing Guantanamo, you would expect his new administration to demonstrate a more principled attitude. The UK government is obviously in a dilemma over the issue, but IMO should be standing up for principle here and get off the fence.




[edit on 5/2/2009 by bovarcher]

reply to post by thomasblackraven


THE BRITISH JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS/ARE AS CORRUPT AS CORRUPT CAN BE!
AS THEY SAY MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO AROUND.......

ITS CAN BUY YOU ANYTHING EVEN A PRISON SENTENCE


GOD SAVE ARE GRACIOUS QUEEN
NOW IF YOU ASK ME THATS CORRUPTION FOR YA..............

Originally posted by surrealist1978
reply to post by thomasblackraven

 

THE BRITISH JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS/ARE AS CORRUPT AS CORRUPT CAN BE!
AS THEY SAY MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO AROUND.......

ITS CAN BUY YOU ANYTHING EVEN A PRISON SENTENCE

GOD SAVE ARE GRACIOUS QUEEN

NOW IF YOU ASK ME THATS CORRUPTION FOR YA..............

Isn't posting in all caps against the rules? Have you actually read the rules?

If I were VP of a company and did nothing when I saw the President of the company abuse and degrade a lower grade employee, I'd feel pretty bad.

If I was called as a witness in a tribunal I would do what is right and call out the guy who has had all the power and completely abused his position in the hope he was removed from his position and replaced by someone more worthy.

I may be threatened, cajoled and pushed and may even eventually lose my job, but someone else would hire me, besides the fact I do OK as a freelancer.

Covering up another persons wrongdoings for your own selfish reasons makes you no better than the perpetrator.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


You said that the UK is the only European country that is providing a significant number of troops....

Let me correct you there. The fight in Afghanistan is a NATO operation and all of our NATO allies have participated, including France, which is kind of surprising since France is not a military participant in NATO.

In Iraq, Poland, Spain, Italy, Czech Republic, and others have supplied troops and material aid.