Why would anyone say ‘religion’ is here…to ‘control’ people?

""Christians, throughout the centuries, have killed in the name of God. The Inquisition was a good example, and the Spanish Catholics in Mexico behaved worse than the most savage tribes, all in the name of God and Christ.


In the various councils of the Roman Catholic Church, the Bible has been greatly revised, for reasons which are clear: to serve the needs of Christianity. Religions are one of the curses of Earth.

Religions are a veritable curse on your planet - As for the new sects that are springing up and flourishing all over the world, they are based on control by brainwashing.

It is terrifying to see young people, healthy in body and spirit, throw themselves at the feet of charlatans claiming to be Gurus and great masters, when the latter are masters of only two things - talking and collecting fabulous sums of money. This, of course, gives them power and enormous pride to see themselves dominating entire crowds of people who submit to them, body and soul. Not long ago, there was even one leader who asked his followers to commit suicide, and they obeyed.

Since on Earth they love proof, there is an excellent one to give them: Universal Law forbids suicide - if this master had been genuine, he would have known this. In demanding this sacrifice from them, he presented the greatest proof of his ignorance. Sects and religions are a curse on Earth and when you see that the Pope sets aside millions of francs or dollars for his travel, when he could make do with much less, and use what money is available to help countries suffering from famine, you can not persuade me that it is the word of Christ which directs such actions.

There is a passage in your Bible that says: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Paradise.

The Vatican is certainly the wealthiest church on your planet, and yet the priests have made vows of poverty. They have no fear of being damned, (yet they believe in damnation), because they say it is the Church which is rich, not them. This is really just a play on words since they make up the Church. Its like the son of a multi-billionaire claiming that he is not rich - only his father is.

The Church has not distorted the passage in the Bible relating to wealth. They have used it to their advantage, for isn't it preferable that the rich grow poorer at the profit of the Church?" - Thoa

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Odessy
Treat everyone fairly and be nice to be nice. Whatever happens next, if you've lived a good life, youll be in the right place.

Thanks for responding to the thread...many good points...

The above one troubles me....I guess if it were up to me, I would have set things up this way...sounds logical....but I can't get away from the requirement for perfection...The father can not be in the presense of sin....and I certainly am not perfect....so I am screwed, so to speak...we all are....that's why Christ had to die....took our place and stuff...don't want to get too heavy...its early

I never understood that....

So Jesus had to die for our sins... That means God wanted us to be in heaven with him and the only way of that being possible is to have his son die... which means God has to follow a set of rules... and thats not an infinite God...

I could be mistaken, and please correct me if I am.

But if God was infinite, he could have just said, "Ok, you guys can come to heaven now. I forgive you."

My personal belief is that there are a few other steps and a few more lives to lead before we get to "Heaven" or reach "Nirvana" etc.

Thats one thing that bugs me about Christianity. They say you have to believe in Christ to get into heaven, but I don't want to believe in a God that would send a good person to whatever "hell" is just because they didn't buy the Jesus story in life.
I guess thats one thing the Catholics and I share... I think that life is rewarded through good deeds and treating people right, not what a person believes... Well, the Catholics would disagree with that last part, but you get the point.

These are just my opinions though, and I think people should be free to believe whatever they want.

reply to post by Odessy

Why Did Jesus Have To Die?
- C.S. Lewis Explains the Atonement

here: christianity.about.com...
= = = = =

However, before we answer the question, "Why did Jesus have to die?" it's also important to understand that Jesus clearly understood his mission on earth involved laying down his life as a sacrifice. In other words, Jesus knew it was His Father's will for him to die.

more here: christianity.about.com...
= = = = = =

Odessy, thank you for asking, just because God set up rules doesn't mean he's not all powerful....it is all explained below...its alot, but most things of value don't come over night...praying for your research...answers are there. JC is my best friend, talk to him everyday...in fact He's prayin too


God exists.
Gen. 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

God is infinite
Psalm 90:2, "Before the mountains were born, Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God."
Psalm 147:5, "Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite."
Jer. 23:24, "Can a man hide himself in hiding places, So I do not see him?” declares the Lord. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord."

God is holy
Isaiah 6:3, "And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.”
Rev. 4:8 "And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come."

God is righteous
Neh. 9:32-33, "Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who dost keep covenant and lovingkindness, Do not let all the hardship seem insignificant before Thee, Which has come upon us, our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our fathers, and on all Thy people, From the days of the kings of Assyria to this day. 33“However, Thou art just in all that has come upon us."
2 Thess. 1:6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you."
Therefore, God is infinitely holy and just.
Furthermore, God speaks out of the character of what He is.
Matt. 12:34, "...For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart."

God spoke the Law
Exodus 20:1-17, "Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me...."
Therefore, the Law is in the heart of God and is a reflection of God's character since it is Holy and good.
Rom. 7:12, "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."
Furthermore, to break the Law of God is to offend Him since it is His Law that we break. This sin results in an infinite offense because God is infinite.
Furthermore, it is also right that God punish the Law breaker. To not punish the Law breaker (sinner) is to allow an offense against His holiness to be ignored.
Amos 2:4, "Thus says the Lord, “For three transgressions of Judah and for four I will not revoke its punishment, because they rejected the law of the Lord And have not kept His statutes."
Rom. 4:15, "...for the Law brings about wrath."
God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death.
Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The sinner needs to escape the righteous judgment of God or he will face damnation.
Rom. 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
But, no sinner can undo an infinite offense since to please God and make things right, he must obey the Law, which is the standard of God's righteous. character.
Gal. 2:16, "...by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
But the sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh).
Rom. 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son..."
Since the sinner cannot fulfill the law and satisfy God, it follows that only God can do this.
This is simple logic. If we are unable to fulfill the Law, then we will be punished by it. But, since God desires us to be saved, the Law must be satisfied. Since we cannot keep the Law and it must be satisfied, then the only one capable of keeping the Law must keep the Law: God.
Jesus is God in flesh.
John 1:1,14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
Jesus was also a man under the Law.
1 Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
Gal. 4:5-6, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins in His body on the cross, thus fulfilling the Law.
2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Rom. 8:3-4, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh. 4in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
Gal. 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
Eph. 5:2, "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma."

Yes I do believe that religion controls people. Without something valid for the masses to believe in that they can use as a means for explanation such as the reason for the season, death, sickness, life, etc then the masses have no logical explanation except the age old saying "god has a purpose and a place for all of us". I do not believe in religion nor a god of any kind. I instead rely on common sense. I feel that there is no need for religion in my life and one of the many reasons is that I got so fed up with religous fanatics pushing religion on me that I decided that I dont want to be like that. People cant respect others enough to keep their god and religion a personal matter they have to push it on everyone that could care less and pushing it wont make folks believe in the imaginary man in the sky. This is my opinion and I believe that it is great for people to believe in something but, why believe in a god that may or may not exist? I feel that if you cant work out lifes problems under your own power than that makes you that much weaker to rely on a fairy tale and magical wizard or whatever. But we live in America and that is what makes us great...we have choices, but your choice may not be the best choice for me and vice versa.
Nobody can prove or disprove religion. When we die that is exactly what we do is die. Afterlife? maybe, maybe not. Did we evolve from the apes? Why are there still apes? God is kind and gentle...oh boy...this is a good one. He sure believes in painful death, poverty, famine, rape, and so on. Gentile and kind??!! WOW! So Agnostic I am...maybe somewhat Athiest but not completely Athiest until I have rock solid proof that there is no gode whatsoever. Until then I am taking the road to being Agnostic. Sorry people but the churches are making millions of tax free money on your weakness...and the catholic churches...well....why or how can they get by with the crimes they do? One thing is for sure they have alot of people bamboozled.
Again, this is my opinion and what I believe. I had no cetain belief until the fanatics made me think while they pushed religion on me and I decided....this religion thing soothes peoples worries and concerns, gives people hope for things that cant be controlled by anything other than human error or accomplishments, and gives some people eplanation for life and death therefore it does control the masses. Just think if there was no religion for these people to believe in. The world would be anarchic like. Much worse than it already is. So if you have no self control at all, by all means go to church.
Sorry for the rhetoric.
AdamHo

reply to post by OldThinker


Thanks for the references.
Thats going to take me a while to understand, most of it went right over my head.

But I still have a hard time believing it. I want to say two things that dissuade me from any named religion.

1) Other religions have Holy texts just as, if not more, compelling imo than the bible and people from all other religions have had "experiences" and "heard the word of god," they just call it something else.

2) If there was a "right" religion, shouldnt all man be attracted to it when they are born, growing up, and finding out about the world?
I mean, it would make sense for some type of attraction, rather than learning about a bunch of religions and choosing one.
And why was the first recorded religion not Judaism or Christianity? It was religions with a Mother goddess (mother earth) which makes sense. Then people started worshiping the stars. Also makes sense, both of the phenomena were unexplainable to the first peoples of the world, and the goddess belief also makes sense because its a woman who gives birth, gives life. As humanity has grown and learned about the world around us, those religions were dropped. I dont think the Roamans would have believed in the gods if they could have climbed Mt.Olympus, but there were thousands of people that believed in them, all because they didnt know what was out there.

I think our understandings of these things will change as science advances. I dont think its silly to have a religion, I have one, but prepare to make changes, because its inevitable that we will one day find something that completely contradicts what we thought. Its happened all throughout Human History.

reply to post by OldThinker


1) Not hugely. Faith, no. Religion, yes kinda.

2) Faith is a tool we use to lie to ourselves, it's just believing without evidence. But faith and religion are totally different. Religion I think is a system that gives 'some' people power, innocent as that may at first be. It's when there is a threat of loss of power that the ugly side of human nature shows and those with power begin to manipulate the system. So not so much one big conspiracy but a continual cycle.

3) History repeats, it's not hard to see these principles in action in humanity.

4) Yes

5) yes

6/7) I describe it as being intellectually honest. All that I can be objectively sure about in my life (derived from knowledge and experiences) does not suggest there is a God, but you can't prove a negative. I don't have certain esoteric knowledge relating to deity(ies) so I can't honestly say that I know him(her/it), their mind, heart etc.

8) N/A

9) Don't know, I guess it depends. For instance if it were a caring, moral, loving God, I wouldn't expect a 'Hell' to exist in the next life or 'suffering' in this one- that would be the reality of a sadist god.

reply to post by OldThinker


1) Do you think faith/religion is here to control the masses?
I think it can be a powerful tool for control, but that is not necessarily it's intended purpose.

2) Why?
Because religion can be traced back to even pre-civilization, pre-government. It's not uniquely a human experience, as we have evidence of complex burial rituals even among Neanderthal tribes. This indicates some belief in an afterlife.

3) Your evidence?
History. Because of the vague language in which the bible and other religious books are written, there are numerous examples of political/religious leaders using their own interpretations of their holy works to justify and support their own ideologies. One of the most important precepts of the American government is the separation of Church and State.

4) Did you once believe?
For a time.

5) Did you change?
I think I went full circle. From doubting as a child, to accepting as a teen, to doubting again as an adult.

6) Why are you an atheist?
I'm not.

7) Why are you an agnostic?
I'm not.

8) Why you are a christian?
I'm not.

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?
I don't know. Since "God" by very definition exists beyond our reality, there is no reliable metric by which we can use to determine the properties, nature, or disposition of such a being. If one believes that God is a first mover and created this reality, then we should be obligated to primarily look at this reality as a means of better understanding god. Studying the creation cannot tell us anything definitive about god, but can be used to falsify misconception about such a being.

reply to post by Lasheic


I like your answers.

nice

Originally posted by Good Wolf

9) Don't know, I guess it depends. For instance if it were a caring, moral, loving God, I wouldn't expect a 'Hell' to exist in the next life or 'suffering' in this one- that would be the reality of a sadist god.

GW, Hi...hope all is welll...

Thank you for the balanced approach you took in answering the nine...nice job!

For number nine would God still be a sadist, if He ensured JUSTICE for the Hitler types?

Sure God is love and He's also JUST...that's balance to OT...

Hiya OT.
While I do not agree with your beliefs, I do appreciate the effort you are putting in to respond to all poster's in this thread. Well done.

Originally posted by Lasheic

9) What ‘SHOULD‘ God look like/act like/be like?
I don't know. Since "God" by very definition exists beyond our reality, there is no reliable metric by which we can use to determine the properties, nature, or disposition of such a being....

Would that also include our INTELLECT?

Maybe we should put more energy in "letting go" and stop trying to 'figure Him out'....I dunno?
But scripture says...

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

see ya....

Originally posted by Tayesin
Hiya OT.
While I do not agree with your beliefs, I do appreciate the effort you are putting in to respond to all poster's in this thread. Well done.

Hiya Tayesin,


"aaawww shucks" that's a southern (in US) statement when people are humbled...I'll wear my shades so you cant see

OT
Philippians 1:3 to you!

reply to post by OldThinker


Are we not created in the image though ? Is it not our responsibility to attempt to emulate our creator ?

We are told to keep holy things in mind as often as possible, i dont know about letting go of our intellect, maybe we need to contemplate more ways to ensure our thoughts have a positive impact on ourselves and others.



[edit on 8-2-2009 by gYvMessanger]

Originally posted by Odessy
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Thanks for the references.
Thats going to take me a while to understand, most of it went right over my head.

Aw, no prob...remember...

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

1)"I like to learn" - You don't REALLY like to learn because you don't have an open mind. When someone such as myself says something that runs contrary to your conditioned, religious mind, you can't deal with it, as evidenced in your replies./"like people" - silly/"like new ideas" - No you don't like new ideas 'cause they run counter to your "old" ideas.
2)"I like JC" - You like myth./"His word and praying for people." - "His" word? Whose word for there is no historical record to even one word that was muttered by a myth. And there is no recipient for prayers.

By your quoting a biblical passage to support your thinking just shows that you are not your own thinker but require others to express what you want others to think you think.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by observer28
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Normally, I'm quite aggressive with theists and other religious types, mainly due to my impatience for their nonsense and infantile behavior. However, OT, you come across as a reasonable person and an exception to my personal rule. Valid questions you have posed, however, I have one for you, for starters: What is the purpose of this line of questioning?

O, I almost ran off the road trying to read your question on the treo yesterday and have thought about it all night...took my daughter to skating this morning, brought the computer and was ready to dig in and answer you completely....got to Panera's, got the coffee got the egg sandwich thing....and FORGOT THE DAMN POWERCORD!!!

So here's the quick version....

1) I like to learn/like people/like new ideas
2) I like JC/His Word and praying for people
3) I've got the time

Biblically James 3:17 is a great motivator for me...But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

[edit on 7-2-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Are we not created in the image though ? Is it not our responsibility to attempt to emulate our creator ?

We are told to keep holy things in mind as often as possible, i dont know about letting go of our intellect, maybe we need to contemplate more ways to ensure our thoughts have a positive impact on ourselves and others.

Yes, I'm not abdigating responsibility, good point. I'm speaking from the vantage point of one seeking God as a non-believer only...

I use my mind all the time, even if my wife says I left it home too much

You were NOT born as a christian. You were born belief-less. It was during your growing up that you mentally-conditioned to accept the mythical reality of jesus. So you were not born a christian, and you wound up being a jesuian. There is no such thing as a christian for you are not the anointed one.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Pericle


4) Did you once believe?

Yes, I was born as a Christian.

hmm?????

Could you please explain this one?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Ahhh I see what your doing I dont know why it didn't twig earlier.

I don't think asking a non-believer to disengage their intellect will work though because disbelief real disbelief is also very powerful, most people aren't really sure, and I think both the people sitting on the fence and the true atheists will only respond to intellectual representation if you will.

Its the modern paradigm that science has placed on them.

While you are not flaming, you are definitely using this forum to further your religious beliefs.

Name one single biblical" prophesy that came true and provide evidence for the accurate details of the "prophesy" and the details of it coming true. I'll tell you right now that you won't be able to provide anything because there's never been one single "prophesy" uttered by any human being, and that includes Nostradamus and all of the modern "psychics" such as Sylvia Brown. Go ahead, bro!

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by CloudySkye

 

Bible prophets are not Criskin...they are required to be 100% accurate...no Chris Angel....wiggle roooooom.

Bible prophecies are almost always specific and detailed. Fulfillment of bible prophecies are usually obvious and are always 100 percent accurate. In fact, the bible itself has something to say about knowing whether or not a person giving a prophecy is a true prophet of God or not.

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deu. 18:22

= = = = = =

Bottom line JC is God...or should be shunned as an idiot!!!

Originally posted by Learhoag
1)"I like to learn" - You don't REALLY like to learn because you don't have an open mind. ....By your quoting a biblical passage to support your thinking just shows that you are not your own thinker but require others to express what you want others to think you think.

I respect your opinion ...OT's probably had his as you as you have lived...no argument from me...I wish you nothing but the best...one last thought....cause the tone is a-changin' here..."For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20



..."been clearly seen"...OT's add...so it's not that hard

..."from what he has made"...OT's add...go outside look up and yell God, show me yourself....and watch your life the next year...


A lil' OT dare there...


gotta go...Rev Al Green's on the Grammy's....might want to research him too...he like JC and his word too

[edit on 8-2-2009 by OldThinker]