How effective is our right to bare arms against weapons like these?

Originally posted by Lasheic...The ADS operates at about 95Ghz. In contrast,

So would that be a 3.16 mm wave?

Easy to incorporate a screen like that into clothing.

This thing is worthless. Big deal so it can disperse a crowd. What's it going to do when that crowd of 2nd amendment advocates is AROUND IT, i.e. has it surrounded? Remember, the more complex a piece of machinery, the easier to bring it down. Probably shooting a super-soaker water gun at it will short circuit it for good.

Originally posted by Matyas

Originally posted by Lasheic...The ADS operates at about 95Ghz. In contrast,

So would that be a 3.16 mm wave?

Easy to incorporate a screen like that into clothing.

No, very difficult indeed. They've tested it against all sortes of improvised defences and they don't work.

Two big problems - one is coverage. Any hole invalidates the entire thing, as even a small spot of pain is enough to send people running for cover.
The wire mesh over your eyes is going to be particularly difficult.

The other is intent. Nonlethals like the ADS are never used without lethal backup. If anyone did manage to resist the ADS and continued to show hostile intent, they would either be engaged with an alternative nonlethal (eg a rubber bullet/sponge grenade) or a lethal alternative.

And remember, you can cancel out tear gas or Mace easily enough just by wearing a gas mask - but both are still very useful nonlethals.


[edit on 9-2-2009 by Wembley]

A high-powered rifle round would probably shut that thing down. If it had any armor on it at all, it would block the beam. Just shoot the stupid thing. Asymmetric warfare is a wonderful strategy. The enemy deploys a multimillion dollar pain beam, and you neutralize it with a 50 cent bullet.

Alternatively, you could eliminate their will to use the weapon if the operators became aware of explosive devices in the area which are built to detonate when a 95Ghz electromagnetic wave is detected.

The beam can be blocked with a bed or a piece of wood. A guy on 60 Minutes demonstrated it.

If it is a directed beam then it shouldn't be that difficult to build a reflector. The operators of this machine might be a little reluctant to continue if the beam were directed back at them.

Originally posted by mattifikation
A high-powered rifle round would probably shut that thing down. If it had any armor on it at all, it would block the beam. Just shoot the stupid thing. Asymmetric warfare is a wonderful strategy. The enemy deploys a multimillion dollar pain beam, and you neutralize it with a 50 cent bullet.

I'm afraid not. The antenna can take a large amount of small arms fire and still function. How many shots do you think it takes to completely stop a satellite dish from working?

The ADS has a greater range than small arms, and is mainly intended for riot control and similar applications. if you start using lethal force, so will they - and they have more and better guns than you.

Originally posted by Primordial
If it is a directed beam then it shouldn't be that difficult to build a reflector. The operators of this machine might be a little reluctant to continue if the beam were directed back at them.

Good luck with the science project. They're inside an armored vehicle - it's not going to bother them.

In any case, the same applies as above; if the ADS does not work they will escalate to more lethal weapons. It will effectively sort out the 1% who still want to resist from the 99% who do not.

Originally posted by Wembley

Originally posted by Primordial
If it is a directed beam then it shouldn't be that difficult to build a reflector. The operators of this machine might be a little reluctant to continue if the beam were directed back at them.

Good luck with the science project. They're inside an armored vehicle - it's not going to bother them.

In any case, the same applies as above; if the ADS does not work they will escalate to more lethal weapons. It will effectively sort out the 1% who still want to resist from the 99% who do not.

I've seen them mounted on armored vehicles as well as hummers and portable units. The hummers seemed to have normal glass windows (or at least not some screened faraday type windows). They are also only good for one direction. What happens when the crowd disperses and now is on 3 or 4 sides of them. I see this as a weapon with limited use. If someone were to expect it to be used on them a plan could easily be devised to render it mostly useless even if it weren't actually disabled.

Not that I'm happy it exists, I just don't see it as a super FTW weapon that they try to make it out to be.

This thing may not be so harmless:

The Air force safety manual for Dews

www.fas.org...

Interview with a fellow who saw the results of DEW vs animal tests. Hint: lots of dead animals.

frontpagemagazine.com...


Another videio report, with good links

blog.wired.com...

Seems to me a temporary defense might be camelback-supplied spray guns to disperse the beam in conjunction with some sort reflective armor.

What concerns me is what happens when these become permanent fixtures around government buildings, manned by semi-trained local cops, and commercial buildings, manned by mercenaries like Blackwater security people.

Realistically, your right to bear arms will help to protect you against other citizens who may be up to no good,

BUT you would be just plain silly to try to defend yourself against a modern military using pistols and rifles.

IEDs were once the best, most realistic option. I wonder if the real purpose of the war in Iraq was to test ways to overcome such weapons? It seems like the best hope anyone would have had for standing up to the military was to take them on indirectly.

The Iraqis figured that out, started doing exactly that, and now the U.S. military has learned valuable strategies to counter it.

your single simple gun in comparison to technilogicaly advanced weapons the elite use against you are ineffective alone, by itself.

But an entire population with arms to protect themselves and country can make tyranny back away.

But, guns or weapons are not a guarantee against evil. The reality is, evil holds all the cards. They can kill us all in an instant, if they wanted too.

One Active denial system $500 000 (or more)

One well placed .203 round $1 (or less)

"What happens if the person has a pace maker?" ~ Alxandro

Nothing. The beam doesn't penetrate deep enough to have any impact on the pacemaker. However, if you want to easily and discreetly kill someone with a pacemaker, you could always just hack into it with a computer to either shut it down or send it into overdrive.

Do we have extensive studies to document this? Has a medical board researched this in the amount of time that its become known?

The FDA just came out with a statement that now makes it OK for a pregnant woman to ingest mercury from contaminated fish. According to the FDA it is also OK for a child to ingest mercury.

This recent revelation by the FDA has paved the way so that now it is OK for that pregnant woman and that child to get vaccines with thimerisol in it, because mercury is now OK in fish.

They are also banning the use of the newly discovered insecticide, GINGER. This will soon be a CONTROLLED substance because someone used it as a natural solution to insects vice the poison.


So seeing a causal link is not always there and they will not always let you know. Thinking that something that bombards the human body with a signal that has been shown to cause cancer is OK just doesn't make sense to me. No matter what kind of studies you show from these scientists that are paid to keep their mouth shut on SECRET projects. How long was this being used before we found out about it? Years... absolutely years....

IMHO
Rgds

Well, its already been mentioned but the response is a sniper. Look for extra antennas on the vehicle that may contain equipment to zero in on shot location. In that case you would need to coordinate from multiple angles and fire at approximately the same time to confuse the team that tries to find you.

Some research shows that if you put a barrier between you and the ADS it becomes less effective. One would be able to put a shot through the thing I think.

For adult bed time reading (NOT!) see gooberment voodoo at its _best_
planning to control tribalism in the streets (and, of course, terrorists).

23 skidoo kidz - velkom to Brave New World with the A to Z manual of the MAN's bag o tricks for crowd, tribal movement and mind control (yes, even weapons for subliminal message delivery!):

www.angelfire.com...

NONLETHAL WEAPONS: TERMS AND REFERENCES

Ed. Robert Bunker

INSS Occasional Paper 15 USAF Institute for National Security Studies USAF Academy, Colorado

EXCERPT:

Acoustic, Curdler Unit . A device which is plugged into an HPS-1 sound system to produce a shrill shrieking, blatting noise. It is used to irritate and disperse rioters and had a decibel range just below that of the danger level to the human ear.

It is used in night operations to produce a "voodoo" effect and effectively breaks up chanting, singing and clapping [2:279- 280,82:184,84,529].

Here is part of the table of contents:


Acoustics 2

Acoustics & Opticals 3

Antilethals 4

Antiplant Agents 6

Barriers 7

Batons 9

Biotechnicals 10

Electricals 11

Electromagnetics 13

Entanglers 13

Holograms 15

Markers 15

Obscurants 15

Opticals 16

Projectiles 19

Reactants 22

Riot Control Agents 23

~ ~ ~ ~

We need radio playing the old songs like

Volunteers of America
Street Fighting Man
Dancing in the Streets

and A LOT MORE BOB DYLAN

It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
by Bob Dylan
(excerpts)

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear

It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small

Can be seen in the eyes of those that call

To make all that should be killed to crawl

While others say don't hate nothing at all

Except hatred.

clip

You lose yourself, you reappear

You suddenly find you got nothing to fear

Alone you stand with nobody near

When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear

That somebody thinks

They really found you.

A question in your nerves is lit

Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy

Insure you not to quit

To keep it in your mind and not fergit

That it is not he or she or them or it

That you belong to.

Although the masters make the rules

For the wise men and the fools

I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

For them that must obey authority

That they do not respect in any degree

Who despise their jobs, their destinies

Speak jealously of them that are free

Cultivate their flowers to be

Nothing more than something

They invest in.

clip
(last stanzas

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards

False gods, I scuff

At pettiness which plays so rough

Walk upside-down inside handcuffs

Kick my legs to crash it off

Say okay, I have had enough

What else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen

They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.

*RUNETANG'S THEORETICAL GUIDE TO DEFEATING THE ACTIVE DENIAL SYSTEM IN CIVIL DISOBEDIANCE OR WARZONE OPERATIONS*

Ooooh scary right?

This thing is CRAP. I'll give you a FEW ways to fight this, some mentioned already by other posters.

1) wear long sleeves, pants, shoes, gloves, a ski-mask or a hat/face-scarf combination, whichever you have. before immiment contact with the pain ray, soak your entire self in water. Jump into the nearest body of water; construct small jury-rigged bath tubs in put-away hidden areas that you can RE-USE if no natural water source is present. The crowd gets dispersed, they jump into the bath tub thingie, not only cooling the skin but re-soaking the clothing. The idea is to have the entire outfit soaking wet, which will impeed movement slightly, so make it pretty good clothings, good material but light weight, you know? Being soaked in water in theory should absorb all the transformational properties of the incoming microwave pain ray because it'll use itself up completely trying to go through all the existing water molecules that your clothes are soaked in. If it barely gets to the top layer of your skin, 1/64th of an inch, a soaking wet outfit could completely neutralize its effect to the point of 100%. You dry up? Go jump back in the water. Set these up BEFORE THE PROTEST (or combat, lol) IN A PUT-AWAY PLACE!!!! KNOW WHERE THEY ARE!! If ALL ELSE FAILS, have access to water hoses nearby that aren't shut off or easily shut off, and spray yourself / comrades before and during the confrontation as necessary. Make it one of many regrouping points. Each regrouping point should have the water hose or bath tub or natural water source. This keeps the groups of comrades small and seperate, and if one regrouping point is found, the struggle can continue. All involved should know where the backup spots are. If you can't even do THAT, and are just going to a protest where things might get violent and are concerned about it, take a powerful pressurized water spray bottle, like the pump action spray bottles, fill a massive one with water and keep it in your pack etc. This will help some. You could experiment with adding some aluminum zirconium from anti-persperant sticks to the water and making an even more effective spray on solution. More on aluminum below.

2) Running behind reflective surfaces like marble / glass / polished stone / metal / etc.

3) Construct light weight mobile shields, much like a Pavise, a medieval shield used by crossbowmen to hide behind while reloading since they took longer to reload. When not being used, it was slung over their back, providing rear protection from a sneak attack, and when ducking down and holding ones head between the knees, one could withstand a volley of arrows coming overhead via the shield. NOW, in todays use, we'd need lightweight reflective shields, but initially they need to be concealed with a cloth until use or the purpose is given away. You sling that sucker on your back, or even fold it up like a car interior windshield ray absorbing shield to keep your interior from wearing on the car, it would only need to be that thick. So you unfold it quickly from your backpack and have a rope of sorts going from one extreme end to the other so you could quickly wrap it around yourself simply by pulling the strings together and tying behind the waist etc. then make yourself as small of a target as possible. Remember, PROPER COVER WORKS AGAINST THIS. Meaning hiding behind a rock or wall will work against this.

3) If you're feeling really crafty, "sow" a thick sheet of aluminum foil INSIDE the outfit you wear that day, it would have to include your arms and forearms, your thighs, calves, knees and upper feet. Even then, you'd need a ski-mask thats either soaking wet or has aluminum foil sown into the inside of it, which I cant really see as being practicle. But some protection is better then none; shield your face with your free arm which does have the protective aluminum inside of it.

4) Melt-down the strongest anti-persperant you can find en masse, figure out how to isolate the most aluminum zirconium from the pot of melted anti-persperant you've aquired, and once fairly isolated, condense the aluminum zirconium solution into a thicker more powerful solution, thick to rub into the skin, all over the skin, not like a speedstick, like sticking your hand in a bowl of goop and rubbing the goop all over your skin. This would make your SKIN uber reflective properties vs microwaves of this strength! Add a food coloring to it and go to the protest butt naked as "the green people" or "the grey people", whatever color, to be cute, and that rub-on will have MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF ALUMINUM in it. This is easier than it seems too .. all you'd have to do is heat up a bunch of anti-persperant and have some basic knowledge of chemistry, or know someone who does. You could even experiment with it yourself, trying to find the right combination of properties to make a long lasting microwave resistant paste that will last something as long as a couple of hours per use. Tell me this isnt a good idea? :-D

5) Even if you have none of the above, and even suffer pain from the ray dispersing you, after being dispersed, THEN go get your gun (if you're an enemy combatant in a war zone, NOT in a protest lol) along with your fellows and approach from another angle, or have multiple groups approaching from many angles, small groups of men. You'd need a Active Denial System for each small group of men. But anyways, you simply approach from another angle while someone else is getting cooked by the stupid thing, creating your needed diversion, and get rid of the operators of the ray so that you can overrun it and maybe even add it to YOUR armies' arsenal.

6) if you're a nation, and have lots of money, you can have research and design done on taking existing camoflauge combat gear and having it imbued with aluminum particles in sufficient levels, or whatever other element you may need to reflect or neutralize the pain ray. Then your entire army could be relatively immune to it, because their fatigues would have built in protection.


The main point is that you can build shields against it, you can build rub-on ointments against it, or, if all else fails, you can soak yourself repeatedly in water as necessary. The water may be the most effective strategy, just make sure your ghetto bath tubs are well hidden! and dont go running to them in droves, have them in a couple different locations, to throw off the oppressors, so if they find one, you still have others elsewhere and can continue the urban riot, protest, civil act, or if its war, to continue combat.

As TheStrategist pointed out, you can't stop a full fledged U.S. Revolution without the Government and Army completely and I mean totally utterly and completely destroying their own country. All insurgents would be mixed like 50/50 ratio with the loyalists, who'd be mostly not involved or merely informants *most would be too scared of getting killed over informing*. But the point is, they'd have to bomb and gas their own populations to kill the insurgents, and we've seen the horrendous casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan / Pakistan from this very type of thing. Except over THERE .. it's MUCH easier to pick who the enemy is and who the non-combatant is. That is not always the case but overall it is true. Could you imagine trying to pick out which U.S. Citizens at a mass gathering were "Armed Insurgents planning to attack U.S. interests" from the ones that are innocent unarmed protestors/gatherers? Especially if the weapons are on the side of the road in caches, not being carried (or concealed if so), and everybody looks the same? Just a massive crowd of Americans .. and YOU have to pick out who's going to live or die, based on a lucky frikkin' guess?

Lol .. you'd have to be seriously demented to even take part in such a scenario as a soldier of the U.S. Army to begin with, and this is why I think the main problem would be the U.S. Air Force. The Army men would be up in our faces and seeing their own family and friends, and some would refuse to kill them and see the terrible things being done to their own flesh and blood relatives and friends and defect to the other side, or sympathize secretly and help from the inside. But many would refuse to shoot down random civilians. The Air Force however is different, because you arent face to face, its much more like a video game, click the button which drops the bomb and it goes boom! on the target and its exciting! But you dont know who is dieing, you dont see them die close up, you don't know if theyre friends or family, none of that, you are disassociated from it in a certain way that the ground fighter isn't. this would be pivotal.

[edit on 2/16/2009 by runetang]