The current civilizations compared to the past civilizations

reply to post by TheRealDonPedros


Just reinforcing your original idea with a dab of color to highlight the key point!

Originally posted by Hollywood11
Now today we see that the same problems that brought the downfall of the advanced prehistoric civlizations such as Atlantis and Mu are back with us. We have come full circle.

Okay... given that the people who talk about this as a problem don't seem to have read Plato's accounts of Atlantis (and instead seem to be making some of it up) and have no evidence for "Mu", it's kind of hard to see how we have the same problems as "advanced prehistoric civilizations."

History may be repeating itself and in our lifetimes we may see the fall of our so called advanced civilization. Only so much evil, selfishness, and suffering can be tolerated on earth, until nature, the earth-mother, and the universal spirit will purify itself.

If that was going to happen, it would have happened long before this. Humans have actually improved in their treatment of each other and the planet. Read history -- read up on the way the Aztecs treated their captives and neighbors. Read up on Vlad Teppich (who wasn't that "off the wall" for that time) or the Borgias. Or the Caesars.

Many specific issues listed here-
indigosociety.com...

I think you must have gone by the title alone and not read the thread, which documents abuses of the Falun Gong by the Chinese government. It's minor compared to some of the unethical research carried out during WWII and previously, which included vivesection and unanesthetized amputations (google "unit 731" en.wikipedia.org... ) and more.

And a rough prototype version of an info package on the coming Great Purification-
indigosociety.com...

Uhmm...that's really bad research by people who feel they are "special Indigo Children" and don't need to look things up. Othewise they'd know that plague and hanta virus have been around in the Southwest US for thousands of years (this is where hanta was originally found) and that the numbers have had a slight rise but are nowhere near what they used to be.

You said that people who don't read history are condemned to repeat it... and then posted links to stuff by people who DIDN'T read history. You seem to feel that their version is right... but have YOU read much history?

If you're getting your history lesson from them, you've been really really really shortchanged!

(of course, one of the presumed "tests" for "indigo children" is that they always believe they are right even when others contradict them.)

reply to post by Indellkoffer


Well Idelkoffer I see someone kicked your dog today!

I agree completely. The world IS much more peaceful now than in the last 99% of the previous history. It is quite remarkable. Of course we have our own big problems.

I've found that new age people who think Atlantis = high tech/advanced civilization have often, over 99% never read Plato's T & C instead they all tell one another it was advanced and no ever checks!

Of course the real howler in all of this is how the believers in this KNOW that all this happened. How do they know? Research? Nope, Scientific discovery? Nope, somebody made it up then told them and they just thought, gee what a kool idea...it must be true!

The Only mention of Atlantis existed in Plato's works. As many have pointed out, Plato took an actual event that occured in the past, like a deluge story and perhaps tales of a civilization that was advanced for its times...(advanced in way like. a person from indegenous tribe of the amazon taking a peek at the modern world and deciding that the world he is watching is super advanced...) and exaggerated it, embellished it, gave it a name.."atlantis" and created the dialogues.

Mu/lemuria does not exist. lemuria was just a thought experiment or a attempt at linkiing the existence of lemurs in the indian sub continent and africa. Mu is nothing but Augustus Le Plongeon's creation nad built upon by James Chruchward. Plate tectonics and mapping of the sea beds have proved sinking of a continent is impossible

According to the theory of plate tectonics, which has been extensively confirmed over the past 40 years, the Earth's crust consists of lighter "sial" rocks (rich in aluminum silicates) that float on heavier "sima" rocks (richer in magnesium silicates). The sial is generally absent or a few kilometres thick at the bottom of the oceans, while the continents are huge solid blocks tens of kilometers thick. Since continents float on the sima much like icebergs float on water, a continent cannot simply "sink" under the ocean.

en.wikipedia.org...(lost_continent)Geological_arguments

These pseudo archaeologists are like crazy.
If today, some structure or formation is found under water , they will make a big splash saying this IS Atlantis and subit a whole loads of un related links and photographs to "back" their point. (example..numerous websites proclaiming the finding of atlantis...)
Tomorrow is another such formation is found, they will jump ship and cry again "this is the Actual Location of Atlantis" and this keeps on going on and on.

And do add to the curry, some reincarnation, tibetan spirituality and some crystal power. Voila...you get any version of Atlantis you want.





[edit on 3/2/09 by coredrill]

[edit on 3/2/09 by coredrill]

Originally posted by Nohup
More likely is that Atlantis was a relatively small but surprisingly smart civilization that existed in the brief warm period after the last big Ice Age and prior to the Younger Dryas.

Even more likely (perhaps ten thousand times more likely) is that Atlantis never existed at all.

And there is absolutely no question whatsoever that there was never any "lost continent" or "lost civilization" of Mu.

BTW, neither Mu nor Atlantis appear in the cultural mythos of any society.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

BTW, neither Mu nor Atlantis appear in the cultural mythos of any society.

Harte

absolutely untrue. you need to read something besides wiki [which obviously is not your friend].

read about enki and his bolts that hold back the sea
read about ra and his hidden circles of the tuat
read about jam [yima] and his three ringed city

but you won't because you're a self proclaimed failed atlantologist and soooo very proud of it.

BTW, jstor is free for the wise now. r u connected?




[edit on 3-2-2009 by Parta]

reply to post by Harte


Hey Harte

Definitely no Mu but I do hold out there may have been a bronze age culture that remains unfound which may have influenced the legends that Plato used to fabricate his story. I think the possibilities of it being found (and having existed) diminish each year though. As we learn more and more it becomes less creditable.

hey you guys. did you know that there was a sea filling the carpathian basin at the time of atlantis? no? jeez. geography is pretty basic to any science you pretend to have studied so maybe you should carry on with your education?

Mu and lemuria are modern fairy tales,

Atlantis as it is believed to have existed by most people is also a fairy tale.
But atlantis, as it is described by plato, does have a historical prototype, Thera/Minoa.

The eqyptians were trading partners with the therans/minoans, and were still around the 1000 years after their disapperance.

Plato took an egytian story and packaged it for a greek audience, complete with virutous hellenes and all.

There are little clues int the dialoges, that fit very nicely with what is known about the theran/minoan society.

The fact that they had hot and cold water plumbed to thier palaces, a festival involving bulls and or bull fighting.
The cirular harbour, a fresco of which has been found at akrotiri.
Plato's physical description of the island fits very well with that of an volcanic island, with a collapsed caldera.






another clue is the use of the legendary metal orichalcum, thought to be an alloy of gold/copper or gold/silver.
It states in the dialoge that the inner walls of the temple to posiden were covered in this metal.
The temple of solomon was said to have vessels of orichalcum.
The connection is that a scholar researching the ark of the covenant, which was kept at the temple, has made a link to the minoans/cretans.

I wish I could remember the details or more of his argument, but basically, he was of the opinion that the ark was crafted by minoan/cretan tradesmen, through the hebrews eygyptian connections.
There is some evidence to that fact, some cretain bronzes that seem depict the holiest of holies or something like that.



*****

anyway Im glad I live in this period of human history, hopefully we havent reached our zenith already.

reply to post by punkinworks09


Howdy Punkinworks

Yes, Minoan civilization was probably the basis for a large amount of the myth that Plato incorporated into his story. Some aspect don't quite fit, but we don't know if those were made up or applied to another undetected ciulture. As I said before the fact that we haven't found this mythical place increases daily the idea that it either; didn't exist or was much smaller and less important.

Originally posted by punkinworks09
[...]
another clue is the use of the legendary metal orichalcum, thought to be an alloy of gold/copper or gold/silver.
[...]
The temple of solomon was said to have vessels of orichalcum.

sounds like very similar claims by the ancients
to the modern day adherents to a 'mysterious' Element 115...

i think the missing Element 115, on the 'Table-of-Elements'
is this mysterious metal that only the ancestors were familiar with.,


but--in fact--> never really existed in or normal world...
the modern era writers used these nebulous rantings as Fact
and made a springboard to launch their own ficticious unknown metal/element

The metal is reffered to in different ancient sources, and there are several alloys that fit the bill.
I was surprised to learn that copper and gold can be alloyed, it wouyld make for a reddish bronze like metal.


I dont know what to think of E 115, but thats not for this discussion.

Originally posted by Harte
Even more likely (perhaps ten thousand times more likely) is that Atlantis never existed at all.

It very possibly didn't exist, but it certainly didn't exist as some super culture with highly advanced electro-spiritual alien technology. A small culture with good astronomical/astrological skills, on a large island or chain of islands that used to exist along the mid-Atlantic ridge.

And there is absolutely no question whatsoever that there was never any "lost continent" or "lost civilization" of Mu.

I agree that Mu was fiction. Atlantis, on the other hand, I'm still not sure about. I agree that it wouldn't have been big enough to be called a continent, but more likely a large island, located where the underwater Azores Plateau is now.

BTW, neither Mu nor Atlantis appear in the cultural mythos of any society.

No, not specifically by name. But there are numerous mentions in a variety of different Western mythologies of a proto-historical civilization, often referred to as a Golden Age, or age of Great Men or Giants. Hey, we're talking about something that might have been destroyed thousands of years before we were able to get back on our feet after the wild climate fluctuations between 20,000 and 11,000 years ago. We would be very lucky to find anything after that length of time. But it doesn't hurt to look.

Unlike the popular mythology, they probably didn't have enough people to build large stone structures (earthen, perhaps, like the Cahokia culture), so we're stuck having to wait until our underwater subsurface scanning technologies get better, along with our DNA tracking techniques, to see if we can come up with better evidence that might fit a mid-Atlantic culture theory.

Theory. You know. One of them things science comes up with.

"The second chapter of Videvdäd gives an explicit description of the myth of war [vara]; the figure of Zarathustra is clearly included in this myth; he is the Ahu and the Ratu of the people of the war. According to this chapter the war [vara] consisted of three concentric circles with nine passages in the external circle, six in the middle, and three in the internal. Water flows there and is always eternally green."

MAHNAZ MOAZAMI
PERSICA XVIII, 2002

reply to post by Hanslune


Hans,

Both you and Nohup seem to think that Plato based his Atlanean allegory on some "legends" of some possibly ancient bronze age civilization that we have yet to discover.

I can go along with the idea of some stories being based on other, far more ancient legends. In fact, this is probably the case with stories attributed to Homer (assuming Homer existed, that is.)

There's a long oral tradition associated with Homer's stories, I mean.

While there are, in all likelihood, undiscovered cultures buried out there somewhere, there aren't any "legends" out there that we know of that Plato could have been working from.

Hence, I seriously doubt that there is even one iota of fact or veracity in anything Plato says about Atlantis.

Does anyone have any evidence at all that the Greeks of 350 BC even knew anything at all about what happened at Thera, 1300 years before their time?

On the other hand, it's extremely likely that Plato knew (or had heard) what happened at Helike. This was no "legend," it occured during Plato's lifetime.

Harte

[edit on 2/4/2009 by Harte]

what is the age of the vara legend and zoroaster?

" Aristotle, according to Pliny (Hist. Nat. xxx. 1), 6000 before Plato
" Hermippus 5000 before the Trojan war ^Diog. Laert. procem.)
" Pliny (Hist. Nat. xxx. 2) several thousand years before Moses
" Hermodorus Platonicus five thousand years before Troy
" Plutarch five thousand years before Troy
" Eudoxus supposed six thousand years before the death of Plato

Colotes accused Plato of plagiarizing Zoroaster



[edit on 4-2-2009 by Parta]

reply to post by Harte


Howdy Harte

Ah but not all myth from that time has been saved! It is interesting that AFAIK Homer made no mention of it and he would have been much closer to the time. The Roman's also would have seen a fuller sample of Greek myths and they make no mention accept for comments on Plato's K & T.

I suspect there was a body of myth that hasn't survived to our time. We could call them the 'Q' documents.

All very speculative of course. I would say that most of Plato's Atlantis was just made up. One could make a list of all the "declarative statements' in T & C and assign them to myth or made up!

So still at 1 out 1000 parts for legends of another unknown civilization supplying Plato with inspiration OR he heard a current legend of such an event(s) that itself was just made up, a meaningless rumor or story. Its currentcy might have been brief.

Originally posted by Parta
read about enki and his bolts that hold back the sea

With all of the mythology available online, could you point to that legend so we can look for it? I haven't heard that one.

read about ra and his hidden circles of the tuat

I can read hieroglyphics (to some extent) and am familiar with the Book of the Gates and the Book of the Dead. So where, exactly, does this reference appear? I can look it up in the original Egyptian.

read about jam [yima] and his three ringed city

Which culture is this? Tell us more about the tale.

Links would be appreciated.

reply to post by Byrd


enki is coming. you'd like the scholarly tilt on what bolts are [circular fetters] and that will take a minute or two

ra and the circles

in the 75 praises of ra on the walls of tombs from the 19th and 20th dynasties in thebes, the tuat consists of a great valley enclosed by mountains. through the valley ran a river with beasts and devils who menaced the dead. as you proceeded into it you entered another qerert or "circle". there were 7 halls [arrets. nu papyrus] or seven circles [as plato says... a gate at each end of each bridge and one at the sea]

"Praise be to thee O Ra, exalted Sekhem, Lord of the hidden circles of the Tuat...
"Praise be to thee, O Ra... and thou makest thy creations as Governor of thy circle.
"Praise be to thee, O Ra... Thou art he who gathereth together thy gods when thou goest into thy hidden circle.
"Praise be to thee, O Ra... the sender of light into his circle... thou art he who makest the darkness to be in his circle, and thou coverest those who are therein.
"Praise be to thee, O Ra... the illuminator of bodies in the horizens... thou art he who entereth into his circle.
"Praise be to thee, O Ra... thou goest in and comest out and thou comest out and goest in to thy hidden circle.
"Praise be to thee, O Ra of the Circles of Ament

"These are they who are in the Land of Serser; 'they have received their bread, and they have gained the mastery over this Lake, and they praise this great god. Ra saith unto them:--'Eat ye your green herbs, and satisfy ye yourselves with your cakes; let there be fulness to your bellies, and satisfaction to your hearts. Your green herbs are of the Lake of Serser, the Lake which may not be approached. Praise ye me, glorify ye me, for I am the Great One of terror of the Tuat.' They say unto Ra:--'Hail to thee, O thou Great One of the SEKHEMU! Praise is thine, and majesty is thine. The Tuat is thine, and [is subservient] to thy will; it is a hidden place [made] by thee for those who are in its Circles."

of course wa and aa lived with ra on the isle of aggression.

and there are circles here
tomb 100

seems pretty accurate
wheel-house enclosure

trident mans measured circle
trident mans enhanced circle

did you get to the yima/jam stuff above?



[edit on 4-2-2009 by Parta]

Originally posted by Hanslune
Ah but not all myth from that time has been saved!

I suspect there was a body of myth that hasn't survived to our time. We could call them the 'Q' documents.

Ha!
Finally nailed you Hans!

Please produce one scintilla of evidence that "not all myths have been saved."

How could anyone possibly know this?

If you're willing to stipulate this one thing, then you might as well go whole hog and stipulate anything you want. Like Hancock does, and like Cayce and Blavatski did.

So, why rely on saying "There are myths from back then that haven't been preserved" " when you can just say "Atlantis existed, it's just that there's no evidence left."

The above two statements are logically congruent.

You old softie! You still believe, don't you?

I envy you that.

Harte