Mig 29 better than F-16 ?

dont be ridiculus some AAA gunners were also russians, also militar assistants, radio control,etc..., now imagine the loses with the air raids,that 300 deads were the total russians loses, im counting only the loses between f86, mig15s, other fagot were lose at b29 fire, even shootdowned by mistake, also russians gave to north koreans migs, some of those 300 migs were flown by korean pilots when the russians were out of the war.




[edit on 24-1-2005 by grunt2]

There were 1000 Migs flown by the communist forces. Those 300 being talked about were Russian.

The Russians played mostly defense, as well. If you read the link, the Russians were very careful with forces fighting foreign wars. The Russians didn't let their pilots fly into enemy territory.

Few, if any Migs were shot down by P-51's.

There was no threat to those Russians but Sabres.

great...what your saying that all the wing (300 planes) were downed??? so the russians in the end fought in birds???, if you consider the cuantify of the aces that would be impossible, they left those planes in korea





[edit on 24-1-2005 by grunt2]

The Russians didn't have that many aces. They shot down a lot of P-51's and bombers, too.

And the Russians had a great number of Mig-15's. As I said, the communist forces had some 1000 Mig-15's.

hell, the max number off russian planes (not korean or chinese) in korea was near 300 planes, they started with 60-75 planes, and again the mayority of planes downed by ruskies were f86-84

[edit on 24-1-2005 by grunt2]

I've given a source which makes its statement based off Russia's own documents. You've given nothing.

Those sources are just Propaganda to make U..S. think thier better here are the real sources your fellow YANKS have said this is a site run by exKorean Fwar f-86 veterans www.korean-war.com... so if you say this is wrong are you prepared to say that there are Americans who fought in the KOrean war who want to discredit U.S. on puppose cuz they say here the same thing Rus Gov says 1872 sorties flowen by VVS 1106 F-80/84/86's shot down by VVS and "ONLY" 335 MiG 15's shot down by U.S.

[edit on 25-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

I believe the figures in question are those of just the F-86 V MiG 15, not all US planes combined. I don't think there can be any doubt that the MiG 15 completely outclassed the F-80 and F-84.

[edit on 25-1-2005 by waynos]

I've given a source which makes its statement based off Russia's own documents. You've given nothing.

man, the kill ratio readjusted is based in the same documents desclassified from both countries, you said 120 "pilots", or 300 "migs" all i know is that those numbers are from an russian diplomatic negotation with north korea to recover 45 bodies, i dont know (in fact we dont know), if those "pilots" were also technicians, support people, how many died by other reasons than dogfight (maleria, accidents, raids, etc), and how many migs were destroyed on ground,etc....you could say wow!!!the usa kick th comunsist butt!!! (as i saw in some patriots web page), but you need an deeper analysis because there are other reasons and that dont match with other investigations based from the same source

all i know is the result of the investigation (again based in the same documents) with some conclusions, conclussions that didnt changed with diplomatic problems and are supported by any respected source

1) the total war kill ratio was 3-5 to 1 advantage for the USA-NU
2) in honchos period the kill ratio changed to 1-2 to 1 advantage to Korean-comunism
3) the sabre ace golden age started just after honchos period

[edit on 25-1-2005 by grunt2]

Waynos nobody cares what you "personaly" want to believe just read what your OWN VET have to say with official Documents pal1106 f-80/84/86's shot down to 335 MiG's if the Yanks won there would not have be a stale mate the reason there was is because they lost there airpower so they were forced to change plans from invading N.Korea and ousting Commies to "just pushing the back tothier side (N.Koreaa) the official explaination by Yank Gov is just a lie so they won't be Embarrassed by addmitting they were forced to change thier plans because they lost the airwar to our VVS

Are you on drugs?

I have no opinion either way in this argument, I was merely pointing out that the guys were arguing over the F-86 v MiG 15 figures while you posted figures that combined those of three types of US fighter against the MiG 15.

I was just trying to be helpful but, if you insist on being so rude, up yours pal

Hey grunt why does this site http:///www.korean-war.com contradict what you say these are Korean Air war vet who flew F-86's!

[edit on 25-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

man, the kill ratio readjusted is based in the same documents desclassified from both countries, you said 120 "pilots", or 300 "migs" all i know is that those numbers are from an russian diplomatic negotation with north korea to recover 45 bodies, i dont know (in fact we dont know), if those "pilots" were also technicians, support people, how many died by other reasons than dogfight (maleria, accidents, raids, etc), and how many migs were destroyed on ground,etc....you could say wow!!!the usa kick th comunsist butt!!! (as i saw in some patriots web page), but you need an deeper analysis because there are other reasons and that dont match with other investigations based from the same source

I've yet to see where you're getting all of this. You haven't been able to argue with what I've actually said. You don't even respond to what I say about your argument. It seems you just want to keep saying the same thing over and over.

How about a site or book or something that backs up your claim?

How exactly did the Russians lose 300 Mig-15's (by their own statistics), and 120 pilots to 100 Sabres, yet still have the upperhand? What did destroy those 300 Mig-15's if not the Sabre?

disturbed, well i found a page, take a look www.acepilots.com...
there some references, in that time the comunists 60-70 planes were lost (including chinese and korean)

contradict what you say these are Korean Air war vet who flew F-86's!

maybe youre right ST, in all analisys always the people forget that factor, hmmm... i think that we need an historic review

there more the yalu river area airfields were in fact bombarded by b29 supported with f86


[edit on 25-1-2005 by grunt2]

disturbed, well i found a page, take a look www.acepilots.com...
there some references, in that time the comunists 60-70 planes were lost (including chinese and korean)

You didn't read much, did you? This site talks about Russian pilots lying about the number of planes they shot down:

1. Many Soviet medium and high-ranking officers wanted to gain favour with the Soviet dictator Josif Stalin (well known for killing or deporting Soviet generals who failed in accomplish his wishes), and one way to do so was to inflate the score of the MiG regiments in Korea.
2. The Soviet pilots earn 1,500 additional rubles for every air victory they were credited with. It is quite likely that there were many false claims, just for the money.
3. The gun camera images of the MiG-15 were of such poor quality, that the Russian guncamera analysts decided that if a US plane appeared in a pic, then they would credit a "kill," even when they did not notice shell strikes, smoke, or an ejection.

If we add to such factors the usual overclaiming -in good faith, but overclaiming in the end- of any war, then we can understand why the Soviet 64th IAK claimed the unbelievable figure of 1,106 UN aircraft destroyed in the Korean War. (532 of them in the "Honcho Period," when only 142 Allied aircraft were actually downed by the Soviet MiG-15 pilots). So, many of those scores must be seen with a lot of skepticism, e.g: Mikhail Ponomaryev was credited with 11 kills, but when we analyze the dates of his claims, only 2 matched with admitted US losses! And he is not the only one.

That only counts losses until 1952, as well. You've yet to explain the loss of 300 Russian Mig-15's through 1951-1953.

Just to let you know this

The prototype MiG-15 first flew in December 1947. It began appearing in service in 1949 and by 1952 it had been provided to a number of Communist satellite nations, including North Korea where it was used extensively against United Nations forces. The MiG-15 was deployed against American Air Forces in December of 1950 in Korea. On November 8, 1950, 1st Lt. Russell Brown, flying an F-80, shot down a MiG-15 in the first all-jet dogfight in history. It was apparent, however, that the MiG-15 was superior to any aircraft then in the US inventory.

Source

I know, it's GlobalSecurity.org, but still...

I can't really argue with this debate since I know so little, all I know about the Korean war was the MiGs were good fighters, so were the F-86 and their pilots...

I'm looking forward to some reliable sources about the war, but we need a neutral perspective, someone who has no bias...

Otherwise numbers will always be subject to lies...

I just gave you people your OWN AMERICAN VET's site man www.korean-war.com... what so nonbiased about that??????

Disturbed, the analysis is very objetive,it consider those overrated claimings, if you see there 2 numbers the speculative and the confirmed kills, the studie is based in confirmed kills concluding that the soviet "coallition" at least was slightly better, in the loses also consider koreans and chinese confirmed losses(about 60-70) also the americans overclaimed their kills , i always have talked about the confirmed kills, the studi consider the period of soviet presence (end1950 to mid1952), 1953 was the golden period for the f86, when soviet activity was limited ,that study with others concluded

1) the total war kill ratio was 3-5 to 1 advantage for the USA-NU
2) in honchos period the kill ratio changed to 1-2 to 1 advantage to Korean-comunism
3) the sabre ace golden age started just after honchos period
4) migs operation was clearly in numerical disvantage, despite that the soviets did a good work

but it seen that your an USAF lover or something like that, man thats not my problem


[edit on 25-1-2005 by grunt2]

Just a note, i'm from the Netherlands, Europe...

I am not quite non-biased my self since I favor Russian technology, but all i'm saying is a source is good when it's not biased, like a country not involved in the war in any way, a country not in the Warsaw pact or NATO/UN

What was that about there not being not that many Russkie aces www.acepilots.com...