experiences and opinions on tarot cards

reply to post by saint4God


So you are saying that if it isn't in the bible that its not an event from God so its magic? Where if the bible says its an event brought forth by God its a miracle?

God in the bible says that the scribes have lying pens.

You ever thought I do love these people thats why I help them in the first place to see they don't have to be sheep that follow a book that very possibly has stuff in it that is not correct by misinteruptation of scribes or down right lies so they could control the masses.

When these people do read their bible they can see Gods words from mans words? You would really have to have a personal one to one to know God enough to know his words from the rest. Wouldn't you say?

Think of it this way...you have your herd sheep that stay together and are content with just filling their bellies up. Then you have the stray that wants more..wants something the other sheep can't even dream of. The shepard goes after that stray and walks with him. You can leave the herd alone because they aren't going anywhere unless the predator comes after them. That stray might just have the smarts to stay away from predators and out wit them. Besides if you were a predator which would you go after that single stray of a herd of sheep?

If I was a predator I would go after the herd I'm going to get at least one of them maybe more. The odds would be in my favor. Maybe herd mentality is not a good thing.


[edit on 4-3-2009 by napayshni57]

[edit on 4-3-2009 by napayshni57]

Originally posted by napayshni57
So you are saying that if it isn't in the bible that its not an event from God so its magic?

No.

Originally posted by napayshni57
Where if the bible says its an event brought forth by God its a miracle?

There is a loud and clear difference between magic and a miracle. Naturally that would involve me discussing what exactly is (or how to use) magic and have no wish, desire, nor inclination to promote the use of it having already learned my lesson.

Originally posted by napayshni57
...to see they don't have to be sheep that follow a book that very possibly has stuff in it that is not correct by misinteruptation of scribes or down right lies so they could control the masses.

It seems you have your judgement already placed upon a believer so there's no further need for discussion. You're leading them astray, I suspect you know this and apparently take some kind of joy in it. May those who come to you for these practices see them for what they truly are before it is too late.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
That does appear to be the case. en.wikipedia.org...

I must be getting old because I knew you'd cite this. Were you not on the thread about the problems with wikipedia? I think you would've have a much stronger case if you simply stuck with that one dictionary you'd cited before.

"If you Deny Ignorance...then don't Wiki

The Co-founder of Wikipedia recently admitted to having some serious quality issues. Co-founder Jimmy Wales was responding to author Nicholas Carr who wrote about it in his blog RoughType. In fact the actual article is The amorality of Web 2.0 in which Carr writes:

In theory, Wikipedia is a beautiful thing - it has to be a beautiful thing if the Web is leading us to a higher consciousness. In reality, though, Wikipedia isn't very good at all. Certainly, it's useful - I regularly consult it to get a quick gloss on a subject. But at a factual level it's unreliable, and the writing is often appalling. I wouldn't depend on it as a source, and I certainly wouldn't recommend it to a student writing a research paper.

Important message in bold. An unreliable factual source.

More here:
Wikipedia founder admits to serious quality problems

Jimmy Wales has also just been promoted to the Board of Directors for Wiki and he wants to push Wiki to be a true free knowledge base. To do that though...he will have to face the challenges.

Jimmy Wales Joins Socialtext Board of Directors
Wikibooks takes on textbook industry

In the end, if you want to find truth and Deny Ignorance....don't bother with Wiki. Until the matter is solved (can it be?) then it will remain nothing more than an unreliable source." - ZeddicusZulZorander, ATS site administrator

Originally posted by Masonic Light
What you have shown is the image of a breastplate. However, the Urim and Thummim were *attached* to the breastplate, probably in a pouch.

How do you read that? Do you know what an Urim and Thummim are?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I don't see any substantial difference in the definitions.

One involves magic, the other does not, but I suspect you're aware already.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I don't see any relevance with Columbus, as he did not claim to possess an oracle that pronounced God's will, i.e., a tool of divination.

Neither does Aaron.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
That's a really bad translation, don't know which version it came from.

Waive it off, it's in every viable translation (and original) as well as in multiple places. At least I now know that you're not ignorant of the facts in the Bible.

May as well get back to topic, but leave God and the Bible out of it as it is stated by both it has no place whatsoever.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God


I must be getting old because I knew you'd cite this. Were you not on the thread about the problems with wikipedia? I think you would've have a much stronger case if you simply stuck with that one dictionary you'd cited before.

You can reference pretty much any scholarly source, there is a general consensus here, and I've never seen anybody try to dispute the fact that it was a tool of divination.

How do you read that? Do you know what an Urim and Thummim are?

Whatever it was, it was used for divination by "casting".

One involves magic, the other does not, but I suspect you're aware already.

I don't see how you can reach that conclusion. Your definition said it was an oracle used to discover God's judgement, which is divination.

Neither does Aaron.

The High Priests claimed to possess an oracular device. That is what produces the divination. Columbus made so such claims.

Waive it off, it's in every viable translation (and original) as well as in multiple places.

The Bible condemns the practice of "witchcraft" and "sorcery". It did not, however, condemn the Magi.

May as well get back to topic, but leave God and the Bible out of it as it is stated by both it has no place whatsoever.

I think it's relevant because it is my contention that the Urim and Thummim were sort of prototypes of Tarot, which is on topic. The Tarot is actually a symbolic series of archetypal images that correspond to the Tree of Life in the Kabalah. While my contention is purely speculative on this point, I believe that the Urim somehow corresponded to the 22 Paths and 22 Letters of the Hebrew Alphabet, while the Thummim corresponded to the Sephiroth.

If that were the case, the 22 "Trump" cards of the Tarot would relate to Urim, whereas the suit cards would to Thummim. By combining the Urim and Thummim, the Israelite priests would be able to classify their knowledge on the Tree of Life, and receive the Oracles of God, as Magi have done in all ages.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
You can reference pretty much any scholarly source, there is a general consensus here,

Sorry friend, truth isn't up for a vote. Especially around here.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
and I've never seen anybody try to dispute the fact that it was a tool of divination.

Then let me be the first.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Whatever it was, it was used for divination by "casting".

No it wasn't. And, glad to see you admitting that you do not know.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I don't see how you can reach that conclusion. Your definition said it was an oracle used to discover God's judgement, which is divination.

Try again. Oracles need not use magic nor specifically the magical practice of divination.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The High Priests claimed to possess an oracular device. That is what produces the divination. Columbus made so such claims.

Wrong again. Do you know what divination is? I'm beginning to doubt.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The Bible condemns the practice of "witchcraft" and "sorcery". It did not, however, condemn the Magi.

Have you ever thought that perhaps they did not practice witchcraft or sorcery? Just a thought.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
While my contention is purely speculative on this point,

It's not only speculative but far reaching without knowing what the urim and thummim are, how they work, and what they're supposed to do. In addition, being unclear as to what magic is, how it works, where it comes from and it's relationship to divination (it takes more research than just the dictionary definition) also makes it very difficult to navigate the waters of the topic. Having known all these things should make any association and connection between them and their relationship to the God of Abraham, Isaac who begot Christ much more clear even though He has clearly stated His position on the matter as well as the consequences of getting it wrong. You know a lot of things Masonic Light, I've learned a lot from you and perhaps this is why I'm disappointed that you're so off the mark here while insisting that you're on.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God


Sorry friend, truth isn't up for a vote. Especially around here.

That's true, but it also can't be made up as we go along.

No it wasn't. And, glad to see you admitting that you do not know.

Perhaps you should study this article from the Jewish Encyclopedia, as it is pretty clear that the items were divinatory:

www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

Try again. Oracles need not use magic nor specifically the magical practice of divination.

An oracle *is* a device of divination. That's what "oracle" means.

Wrong again. Do you know what divination is? I'm beginning to doubt.

I'm beginning to feel the same way. "Divination" is contacting the divine, thus the root word of "divination" is "divine". This is done through the medium of an "oracle". The Greeks used the Oracle of Delphi, which was a woman who entered trance-like states and uttered prophetical statements. The Israelites used the medium of the Urim and Thummim, which were possibly cast like dice.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


Have you ever thought that perhaps they did not practice witchcraft or sorcery? Just a thought.

Of course they didn't, if you're speaking of the Magi. The word "magic" derives from "Magi", and Magick is the Science of the Magi. But they certainly didn't practice "witchcraft" or "sorcery".

You know a lot of things Masonic Light, I've learned a lot from you and perhaps this is why I'm disappointed that you're so off the mark here while insisting that you're on.

Thanks for the thumbs-up in the other categories, but I don't think I'm off mark at all. I think that you personally don't like the practice of divination, so you're trying to impose that view on Israelite history, regardless of what anyone else says. That's fine, everyone is entitles to his own opinion, but it's not "denying ignorance".

Again, religious scholars are in agreeance on this.

Concerning Magick, most occultists more or less use Crowley's definition, that it is "the Art and Science of causing change to occur in conformity with Will". That definition is, of course, meaningless unless one understands the philosophy behind it, which itself is complex and abstract, but touches on your comment about "where it comes from". Much nonsense has been written about Magick. In his Liber 4 Book 2, the abovementioned Aleister Crowley wrote:

Again, the confusion of thought caused by the ignorance of the people who did not understand it has discredited the whole subject. It is now our task to re-establish this science in its perfection.

To do this we must criticize the Authorities; some of them have made it too complex, others have completely failed in such simple matters as coherence. Many of the writers are empirics, still more mere scribes, while by far the largest class of all is composed of stupid charlatans.

That's a very accurate statement, so in order to truly understand it, we must at the very first forget all we thought we knew about it. It has much more to do with quantum physics and psychology than about sticking needles in voodoo dolls.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I'm beginning to feel the same way. "Divination" is contacting the divine, thus the root word of "divination" is "divine".

The magick practice of divination is not merely 'contacting the divine' (divine apparently being a very subjective term here) nor do you have to contact something 'divine' to practice divination.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
This is done through the medium of an "oracle".

Oracles and mediums are not the same thing. Even something so basic as the dictionary can show the difference. Again, continue the discussion about Tarot and what limited information there is here about it, but leave God and His Word out as He separates Himself from them until the hour He exacts punishment upon those who use divination:

"Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God." - Leviticus 19:31

"I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people." - Leviticus 20:6

"Furthermore, Josiah got rid of the mediums and spiritists, the household gods, the idols and all the other detestable things seen in Judah and Jerusalem. " - 2 Kings 23:24

"Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance," - 1 Chronicles 10:13

"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" - Isaiah 8:19 (big clue here if you're looking for one)

"If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the LORD, until I destroy it by his hand. So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, 'You will not serve the king of Babylon.' They prophesy lies to you that will only serve to remove you far from your lands; I will banish you and you will perish. But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the LORD." ' " - Jeremiah 27:8

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God


The magick practice of divination is not merely 'contacting the divine' (divine apparently being a very subjective term here) nor do you have to contact something 'divine' to practice divination.

If you're not contacting the divine, then, by definition, you're not practicing divination.

URIM AND THUMMIM in the Bible. These descriptive terms are applied to one of the methods of divination employed by the ancient Hebrews, which, it is now generally agreed, consisted in a species of sacred lot.

www.1911encyclopedia.org...

Oracles and mediums are not the same thing.

I didn't say they were. "Oracles" are the utterances, whereby "medium" would be the method whereby the utterance is heard. In our example, God's judgement is the actual oracle, whereby the Urim and Thummim are the mediums.

Again, continue the discussion about Tarot and what limited information there is here about it, but leave God and His Word out as He separates Himself from them until the hour He exacts punishment upon those who use divination:

Obviously I can't do that because I believe the information that you're giving our readers is faulty. It is acknowledged by all Old Testament scholars that the Israelite High Priest practiced divination. It is relevant in this thread because their method of divination (Urim and Thummim) has possible links to the development of the Tarot.

"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" - Isaiah 8:19 (big clue here if you're looking for one)

I would hope you would see the clue as well. I never said anything about "consulting the dead", if that's even possible, which I doubt. Again, "divination" is to consult the Divine, not ghosts. Otherwise it would be called "ghostination".

Originally posted by Masonic Light
If you're not contacting the divine, then, by definition, you're not practicing divination.

I so wish this were true, but the reality is there are specific magick practices of divination which is unsanctioned Biblically. Do you really believe God is saying, "Don't call me" here?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I would hope you would see the clue as well. I never said anything about "consulting the dead", if that's even possible, which I doubt.

It's very real. You'd have to also doubt the Bible as well as this is what Saul did with the Witch of Endor.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Again, "divination" is to consult the Divine, not ghosts. Otherwise it would be called "ghostination".

I understand magick is often misleading and actually is half the point.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

I so wish this were true, but the reality is there are specific magick practices of divination which is unsanctioned Biblically. Do you really believe God is saying, "Don't call me" here?

No, but as you mention, it *is* interesting that God in the OT only sanctions some to use divination, not everybody. This could be interpreted in a number of different ways. There is a tradition in the Kabalah that when Moses first went up the mountain, he brought back in writing the mysteries of the Kabalah. Upon seeing the Israelites worshiping an idol, he knew they were not ready for such lofty truths, so went back up, and came down again with a set of "Thou shalt nots", which basically treated them like children.

Maybe divination was in the class?

Originally posted by Masonic Light


It's very real. You'd have to also doubt the Bible as well as this is what Saul did with the Witch of Endor.

I do not believe that story literally, no.

I understand magick is often misleading and actually is half the point.

It seems unfair to me to call Magick "misleading" when you've spent all morning denying the obvious divinatory use of the Israelitish shew stones. I'm not really sure what kind of point you're trying to make here. How has Magick "misled" you?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
"Thou shalt nots", which basically treated them like children.

A perfect match for their behaviour.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
It seems unfair to me to call Magick "misleading"

Half. I did say half, yes? I'm not pouring it into a flask and measuring it volumetrically, but rather a division of disciplines.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
when you've spent all morning denying the obvious divinatory use of the Israelitish shew stones. I'm not really sure what kind of point you're trying to make here.

The point is this, simply, at the risk of sounding like treating others as children:
1.) Those who served God in the Bible did not use magick.
2.) God says not to use it, that He'll turn away from those who do and those who do will be condemned.
3.) Tarot cards employ the same magic God tells people not to use.
4.) Tarot cards are not a tool used to reach God.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
How has Magick "misled" you?

The biggest deception towards me was that my spirit (which I didn't know I had at the time) was safe when it was not. I was willing to throw my body away, but there were more eternal stakes at play. This is also why it's mentioned Biblically several times and with great severity. God doesn't make any noise about what color shoes a person wears and for good reason.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God


The point is this, simply, at the risk of sounding like treating others as children:
1.) Those who served God in the Bible did not use magick.
2.) God says not to use it, that He'll turn away from those who do and those who do will be condemned.
3.) Tarot cards employ the same magic God tells people not to use.
4.) Tarot cards are not a tool used to reach God.

While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, just for the record, allow me to say I strongly disagree with all four of your above premisses. I have already partially explained the reason for disagreement, and don't want to go off topic, so will only address the Tarot:

The Tarot is an amazing tool for personal growth. Called "Rota" by the Rosicrucians, it has a profound effect for the better on everyone who studies it.

The Tarot is, in a nutshell, a picturebook that explains the Universe via the classifications of the Holy Qabalah. It is a gift from God, and should be used reverently, but should be used continuously with joy and thanksgiving.

Apparently I'm not the only one that passes judgement.

Do I take joy in helping people? Yes I do. The tarot isn't the evil thing people are lead to believe it is. Study the history of the cards.

Perhaps you were seeking the wrong spirit in your practices.

For all you know I am leading them to the light.

Perhaps in their spiritual journey they are ready for more than milk.

I would recommend the use of tarot for anyone. As long as the person that is doing the card reading does it freely. In my book anything given to you for free such as the ability to read the cards should be in return gave away for free (the reading to the one guided to you).






[edit on 4-3-2009 by napayshni57]

[edit on 4-3-2009 by napayshni57]

Originally posted by napayshni57
Apparently I'm not the only one that passes judgement.

Nope, the scripture I quoted deems God's judgement but as I understand it He doesn't share His authority.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

If one were to hear this and ignore it, then it is clear they are not following the Word of God, willfully dismissing the command and submitting themselves to the judgement above. My reason for mentioning it is to create awareness that this judgement is here and present warning in hopes it will be taken to heart. The choice is, as always, yours.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


I judged a book.
Bless your heart anyway...at least you care about others.
Way more than lots of people now days.

Multi-post, mod already notified of problem.

[edit on 4-3-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by napayshni57
I judged a book.

Please re-read, you judged those who were entrusted with God's word. Also recall that the Bible is not God, that people can go to God directly and ask Him the same thing that's in the Book (which I have) and found it true. Am I too a liar and seek to control the masses?

reply to post by saint4God


I didn't judge the scribes. God told about the scribes and lying pens. I'm just listening to what he says. I believe even Jesus said woe to them also.

Sir if you commune with God then you would be very foolish to be a liar now wouldn't you?

I did not call you a lair. I stated the book has been tampered with by men. For all we know maybe they didn't know they were lying they probably didn't understand half of what they were writing in translation.

You know what they say the older the bible the more accurate it is.

It's not my job to judge you. For I don't know what is in your heart or your mind only the creator does.

By the way I cut out the middle man (book) myself and go right to the source. I applaud you on that. Many are not so brave they want someone else to spoon feed them their ideas and not think for themselves or let the highest source of all teach them.

Blessing

Very interesting topic which I have admittedly only half read at this point but will read in its entirety tomorrow , once well rested

I have read Tarot cards for people and am interested in hearing both sides of the debate as to weather or not its right or wrong and if it goes agents " Gods word " .

I , rightfully or wrongly , have always thought that Tarot cards help you get in touch with ones own intuition , not as a magic tool . Nor have I ever thought of Tarot as a tool to in anyway communicate with the dead .

Is it simply wrong to turn to anything other the God for advise or understanding of a matter ? Could meditation also be deemed as "wrong" ? I ask this question with all honesty and not as a rhetorical question nor as a smart remark . For I , as mentioned , see Tarot as a tool to get in touch with ones own intuition . For we were all created with intuition . Our intuition speaks to us all every day , even if we are not aware of it .

Are Tarot cards an evil thing to be avoided ? Are they a tool to help one gain insight based on ones intuition ? Does it even matter , is it simply a form of divination and there for something to be avoided ?

From my own personal experiences based on the readings that I have done for people Tarot cards seem to give a clear picture of what a person is currently going through in there life and points out possible outcomes that may arise , similar to what a keen observing friend might do when offering advice . The difference being that the Tarot cards will show this to a person who has no knowledge of the matter before hand .

I am looking forward to reading this thread in its entirety and hearing both sides of this discussion .

I read the tarot for myself from time to time and for me they are very accurate. I've never had the experience of them actually turning themselves over for me but i have a fair few jump out at me when I'm shuffling and i've heard that if that happens then you're best to include them in the reading because they're showing themselves for a reason. . .