Were The New Testament Documents Considered Scripture By The Early Church?

reply to post by Kapyong


You are right... the bible has undergone MANY revisions ALL under the controll of the same people who distorted the orginal jewish texts for greed. These people have never left power and have allowed these revisions to take place.

Unfortunatly these religious nuts would commit suicide if they even entertianed such a concept.

reply to post by MandM


YES.

Look through some of the writings of the Pre-Nicene early church fathers. MOST (like up in the 90%'s) of the later canonized NT texts are quoted in their writings.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Kapyong

 

You are right... the bible has undergone MANY revisions ALL under the controll of the same people who distorted the orginal jewish texts for greed. These people have never left power and have allowed these revisions to take place.

Unfortunatly these religious nuts would commit suicide if they even entertianed such a concept.

Well to some other people maybe you'd have to be insane to be so blind, but hey, if you don't understand it, kill it!!

Originally posted by Grandma
I am sorry, but you missed my whole point that the early church did have copies of the testaments. They passed these around to each other aan to other cities. And as was custom at that time was alos oral teachings of the gospels. We can trace the NT back to the fourth century.

but thats the point i raised which gospels did they pass around between 40AD-65AD?

mark 65-70AD
luke 70-75AD
Matthew 70-80AD
john 90-100AD

the only things they could be passing around were paulian writtings 50+AD

and the NT in its earliest form was the marconite bible around 150AD it didnt become standardised until 400AD'ish

And the gospel DID get to Britian, does it really matter when? The point is they did HEAR the GOOD NEWS and some believed.

yes

it really does matter, becasue if your facts are wrong they are simply wrong and may cast dought on your other comments which may be accurate

good information even it goes againt your beliefs or position is always better then having a comfortable mistruth

You don't need to believe. I know you get a lot of happiness out of bashing Christian threads........but you really do not discourage me or my faith.

good im not trying

i dont bash christians unless they are saying somthing extremley dumb or indulting and warrant it, and when you get to that level it doesnt matter what faith or lack of they hold

you gave a time frame where the gospels were passed around, but the gospels didnt exist for over 1/2 that time period so i was asking what it was they were supposed to be passing around prior to them bieng written as you stated

and your christianity in Britain was wrong the dates were off, and bad information leads to bad conclusions so better to correct it and move on the stick with dispite it being completley wrong

Gday,

Originally posted by AshleyD
Look through some of the writings of the Pre-Nicene early church fathers. MOST (like up in the 90%'s) of the later canonized NT texts are quoted in their writings.

Can we see your lists and/or figures and calculations that lead to your 90% figure please ?


K.

reply to post by Kapyong


Well, since Grandma wouldn't do it, I'll throw you a bone with the problem with "easter sunday" and the true chronology of Jesus' resurrection.

First off, traditional christians have the day of resurrection wrong, it wasn't on a sunday but just before sunset on the sabbath. Easter sunday is a pagan day, not christian. How do I get that conclusion? The bible is clear that Jesus was crucified on PASSOVER, not "good friday" like my traditional counterparts believe. Personally, I don't see How you get 3 days and 3 nights from midday friday to sunday morning. That's like 1 1/2 days.

Second, you have to chronologically parallel the gospel accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection and draw a more accurate conclusion as to the year He died. Take the fact that there was a yearly sabbath and a weekly sabbath taking place between the crucifixion and resurrection. The crucifixion happened on passover which means the yearly sabbath would be the following day since it starts the feast of unleavened bread. So Christ died and was burried on passover. All rested on the yearly sabbath. women prepared spices and oil after this annual sabbath in order to anoint the body of Jesus. This anointing was not to happen until sunday because of the weekly sabbath rest. In taking these facts into account, and figuring the death of Christ somewhere between 29 and 33 ad, the only possible date of His death is 31 ad. Here is the full chronology of the crux of Christ.....

Tuesday: Jesus Christ ate an evening Passover meal with His disciples and instituted the New Covenant symbols (Matthew 26:26-28). Jesus was then betrayed by Judas, arrested and during the night brought before the high priest.

Wednesday: Jesus died around 3 p.m. (Matthew 27:46-50). This was the preparation day for the annual, not weekly, Sabbath, which began at sunset (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31). Jesus' body was placed in the tomb at twilight (Matthew 27:57-60).

Thursday: Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset was the high-day Sabbath, the first day of Unleavened Bread (John 19:31; Leviticus 23:4-7). It is described as the day after the Day of Preparation (Matthew 27:62).

Friday: The high-day Sabbath now past, the women bought and prepared spices for anointing Jesus' body before resting on the weekly Sabbath day, which began at Friday sunset (Mark 16:1; Luke 23:56).

Saturday: The women rested on the weekly Sabbath, according to the Fourth Commandment (Luke 23:56; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus rose near sunset, exactly three days and three nights after burial, fulfilling the sign of Jonah and authenticating the sign He gave of His messiahship.

Sunday: The women brought the spices early in the morning while it was still dark (Luke 24:1; John 20:1), finding that Jesus had already risen (Matthew 28:1-6; Mark 16:2-6; Luke 24:2-3; John 20:1). He did not rise on Sunday morning, but near sunset the day before.


Does that make more sense than a rediculous false holiday in good friday and easter sunday? I also maintain that the early church still taught out of the OT but kept the oral traditon of the new stuff. I am Judeo-christian which is the belief that christianity was not intended to be separate from Judaism but simply a sect of Judaism. When christianity was "ROMANIZED", it became a religion that despised the race and religion it came from. This is all thanks to the catholic church which has monopolized the christian faith. We have Easter, christmas, sunday worship, halloween, and false messiahship (popes) thanks to catholics. I'm sorry for any catholic reading this post. It's not intended to offend you, but simply the "establishment" of catholicism. God bless you all.

Gday,

Originally posted by Locoman8
Well, since Grandma wouldn't do it, I'll throw you a bone with the problem with "easter sunday" and the true chronology of Jesus' resurrection.

Thanks,
Grandma has stopped responding to me :-(

To recap-
what I asked for was :
"I am NOT asking for a paraphrased version - I want you to take every single verse about Easter Sunday from all four Gospels and place them in order without leaving any out, and have it make sense."

Originally posted by Locoman8
First off, traditional christians have the day of resurrection wrong, it wasn't on a sunday but just before sunset on the sabbath. Easter sunday is a pagan day, not christian. How do I get that conclusion? The bible is clear that Jesus was crucified on PASSOVER, not "good friday" like my traditional counterparts believe. Personally, I don't see How you get 3 days and 3 nights from midday friday to sunday morning. That's like 1 1/2 days.

Pardon?
Your conclusion does not follow from the premise at all. The paragraph makes little sense.
And,
the Gospels DIFFER on when the crucifixion happened - the synoptics say Passover, and G.John says the Day of Preparation.

Originally posted by Locoman8

Here is the full chronology of the crux of Christ.....

Mate -
that's NOT what I asked for at all !

I asked for
NOT asking a paraphrased version, but every single verse about Easter Sunday morning from all four Gospels, placed in order without leaving any out, and having it all make sense.

You gave me a PARAPHRASE !
from the crucixifion (NOT Easter Sunday morn) !
which did NOT quote ANY Gospels !

Umm -
Did you even READ my post at all ?

I specifically said "every verse" to make it crystal clear what I meant - that every single verse about Easter Sunday morn from every single Gospel be re-arranged into order WITHOUT LEAVING ONE out.

You didn't even TRY.
Like Grandma didn't even TRY.
Because it can't be done in a way to have it make sense.

Will you ever try doing it Locoman8 ?
Or do you already know it's impossible?

Any other Christians here even prepared to TRY it ?
Take a text copy from the Easter events from the four Gospels and use WordPad e.g. to re-arrange every single verse into order in a way that makes sense.



Kapyong


[edit on 30-1-2009 by Kapyong]

[edit on 30-1-2009 by Kapyong]

reply to post by Kapyong


I'll attempt what you're asking. It's a long task to accomplish but I'll do it. The last post I made was basically to break the ice and let you know that I don't believe in "good friday" or "easter sunday" as christian holidays. Also, to add, the "Day of Preparation" is the "Passover" which was the day 14 Nissan in the Hebrew Calendar. Okay, now the verses.....


Matthew 26:2- "You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."
Mark 14:1- After two days it was the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take Him by trickery and put Him to death.
Luke 22:1- Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2-And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.
John 11:55- And the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went from the country up to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves. 56-Then they sought Jesus, and spoke among themselves as they stood in the temple, "What do you think--that He will not come to the feast?"

All four gospels speak of the plot to crucify Christ on Passover... not Good Friday. I know you're looking for the account of His resurrection so here we go.

Matthew 28:1- Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
2- And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
3- His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
4- And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5- But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
6- "He is not here; for He is risen as He said, Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
7- "And go quickly and tell his disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you."
8- So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

Mark 16:1- Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.
2- Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
3- And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?"
4- But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away--for it was very large.
5- And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.
6- But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.
7- "But go, tell His disciples-- and Peter-- that He is going before you into Galilee, there you will see Him, as He said to you."
8- So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Luke 24:1- Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
2- But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb.
3- Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
4- And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments.
5- Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead?
6- "He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee,
7- "saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.' "
8- And they remembered His words.
9- Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.

John 20:1- Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
2- Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."
.....skip to verse 11......
11- But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb.
12- And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet where the body of Jesus had lain.

All 4 gospels speaking of the same event. The only differences are the fact that Matthew mentions Mary Magdaline with the "other Mary" while Mark mentions Mary Magdaline, Mary the mother of James (the "other" Mary) and Salome. Luke mentions Mary Magdaline, Johanna, Mary the mother of James, and others and John only mentions Mary Magdaline. Truth is, take them all and put them together and it was many women but Mary Magdaline leading the charge. That shouldn't be an argument. Meanwhile, the first three gospels agree on everything but John mentions the angels meeting Mary AFTER the desciples were alerted to the missing Body. The other three books mentions Mary and the women sighting the angels and then telling the desciples. Two gospels only mention 1 angel and 2 mention 2 angels at the tomb. Who cares? Angels, missing body, alll women that discovered the missing body. those are the high points that all 4 gospels agree on. Everything else is what Jesus said while walking with the Apostles. Here's a tip... instead of trying to just parallel what doesn't fit, look at these 4 books as pieces of a puzzle and some should fit together, instead of look the same. Anywho, is this what you wanted? If not, you are basically asking to do something as if to say these 4 books were written by 4 people that wrote the 4 exact same things but remember that people percieve things differently. John was the only apostle present at the crucifixion so his account is probably more accurate than any other. Well, hope this helps or feeds your ego. God bless.

Gday,

locoman8,
again you completely failed to do what I asked.

Perhaps I could make it clear by these questions, first posed by Dan Barker :

What time did the women visit the tomb?

* Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
* Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
* Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
* John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

Who were the women?

* Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
* Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
* Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
* John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

What was their purpose?

* Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
* Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
* Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
* John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

* Matthew: No (28:2)
* Mark: Yes (16:4)
* Luke: Yes (24:2)
* John: Yes (20:1)

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

* Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
* Mark: One young man (16:5)
* Luke: Two men (24:4)
* John: Two angels (20:12)

Where were these messengers situated?

* Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
* Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
* Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
* John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

What did the messenger(s) say?

* Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
* Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
* Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
* John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

Did the women tell what happened?

* Matthew: Yes (28:8)
* Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
* Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
* John: Yes (20:18)

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

* Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
* Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
* Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
* John: No (20:2)

When did Mary first see Jesus?

* Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
* Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
* John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

* Matthew: Yes (28:9)
* John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)

After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?

* Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
* Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
* Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
* John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
* Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)

...

...

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?

* Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
* Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
* Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
* John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

Did the disciples believe the two men?

* Mark: No (16:13)
* Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)

What happened at the appearance?

* Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
* Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
* Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
* John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?

* Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
* Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
* John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
* Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

Where did the ascension take place?

* Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
* Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
* Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
* John: No ascension
* Paul: No ascension
* Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)


Does that make it clear?

The Gospels tell completely DIFFERENT stories.
You didn't even TRY to do what I asked, you just quoted sections from four Gospels.


Kapyong

reply to post by Kapyong


Just so you know, your quick rendition on these verses leave no insight for the story flow! They all say the same thing with minor variations that are easily explained by the fact that 4 different people wrote the 4 different books 40+ years after the death of Jesus and each person had their own point of view in telling the account of the Gospel. If you read any of what I wrote I mention the fact that the women present at the tomb can all be accounted for. All gospels agree that Mary Magdalin was there. Some gospels mention a few other women, one mentions many women and John only mentions Mary Magdalin. Well, easy-peasy..... Mary Magdaline, Mary the Mother of James, Salome, Johanna, and many other women were there to embalm the body of Christ with spices and oils. If you're trying to argue the point that the 4 gospels don't parallel correctly, I'm not convinced because where there's a gap in one, there's a link in another gospel account or NT writing. It's called studying the bible and it's called using references. Personally, I think this thread is a waste of time because some athiest/agnostic started a debate with me that got this thread off-topic. I'm having a hard enough time convincing traditional christians about their "pagan practices" brought on by catholicism. Peace and blessings to you.