Escaping Religious Images and Delusions

reply to post by badmedia


That takes years of building muscle memory and developing shape recognition as a baby. These things were developed over years of constant movement. Without that practice and development there would be no way a child could cath a ball. All of our emotions and senses come from a couple of cells.. these things take time.

reply to post by John Matrix


From the time that i learned to read I have been reading the Bible.
I have studied that book for the better part of 40 years and I agree that there is much of value in its pages. Yet you said a mouthful when you said it is the OPINION of the writers. I have no issues with the truth, but considering the canon of scripture was carefully chosen to make the transition to Christianity being the state religion of the Roman empire, much has been omitted.

I have no beef with you, or with the writings of the ancients. I do not see it as the absolute, inspired word of god, but as a collection of the history of the Jews and a chronicle of the life of Jesus and the formation of the early church.

All things work together for good to them that love the Lord. Loving the Creator and honoring that love in our lives is what is important. The kingdom of god is within, not an outward set of rules and conditions. The canon was chosen to "guarantee" the Orthodox leader with the control they so desperately needed in the Empire. Take a peek at the gospels and the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, there is so much of value in those texts, which were purposely excluded. The NT makes reference to the book of Enoch as that was a very popular text at that time, yet it was omitted.

We could go round and round with the topic. We see things differently on some issues and the same on others. One thing we can agree on is the most important: There is a creator, and love is the key. Anything else is extra.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by badmedia

 

this must be why during brain surgery they keep the soul "awake" so they dont cut it on accident and send the man to hell. We all know that one wrong slice could drasticly change the mans hopes and dreams, or are you to ignorant to admit this?

By your own logic. Tell me, why are they unable to bring people back to life after the "soul" leaves? If you were anywhere near correct, then they wouldn't have to worry about keeping the "soul" alive, it would automatically kick back to life when repaired. After all, it's just chemicals and such right? And yet, it doesn't do that does it?

When brain cells die it can remove memories, aspects of vision, words, smells. With those memories gone are they not a differnt person? Does this not show you how experiances and memories shape personalitys? How does your soul butterly fit into that.... the soul contains no knowledge of experiances or emotions... or any of our senses. Those are all alterable with brain surgery.

Ummm, same person. If someone in your family loses their memory, does that mean they are no longer a member of your family? Sure, things about them change, but it doesn't really change who they are or were. It's not like I'm saying the brain has no function, purpose or so on.

How is that person able to learn in the first place? If they are just following logic and have no free will, then how are they able to learn? How are they able to understand? You can't get a computer to learn. You can get it to follow the logic you give it, but that is about it.

There is a difference in something that can understand, and something that has no free will. When a computer runs a program, it doesn't understand the code it is given, it only follows the patterns it's told to. I honestly don't see how you can not see the difference. As I said before, if you can't see that difference, then you are never going to understand me.

Its just sad to see a thread based on removing delusional thinking on which you are saying that theres a magical soul you have no proof of existing. You are to ignorant to see how your reality is a tapistry of electrical signals and chemicals.

Ok fine, and to what is that reality presented to? I have asked you mulitple times now, and you have not even attempted to answer. If it is just electrical signals(patterns) and chemicals, then to what are they being presented to? Personally, I think it is delusional thinking to believe that the state of electrical signals and chemicals is able to bring about consciousness, and a state of understanding.

Isnt it strange that these same people who distorted the religions back then never left power? Who do you think compiled the bible? A bunch of holy people im sure... right. It seems that you only recognize that we are being decived... not also that those who decive allowed what we have now to exist.

How can you be deceived? If you don't have free will, then how can you be deceived? You are just going to do whatever it is that controls you makes you do. Do you purpose to say that you can "choose" what you believe and what you act on? The only way you could be deceived is if you had the free will to choose 1 thing over another. Apparently, like most Christians you don't actually believe the things you say.

How far does the rabbit hole go?

Again, what does it matter if you don't have the free will to choose anyway? Obviously there is no rabbit hole according to you.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by John Matrix
Why does a brain surgeon need training? Why does a mechanic need training? Why do any of us need an education? Why do we have road maps?

Do we learn from those who walked before us and discovered the hidden dangers, or do we just walk the path and right off the cliff?

And yet, even a 5 year old can throw and catch a baseball without knowing or understanding physics.

I personally think it's pretty telling that you have spent all those years studying the bible and still haven't found the father, and yet plenty of people find him all the time without it.

What has physics done to establish Divine Character in your Soul?

I study metaphysics, astrophysics, quantum-physics, etc.
It's funny that I knew all the stuff they teach about thoughts as being real, having energy, effecting reality, having magnetism, gravity, attracting other supportive thoughts, etc. all back when I was a child of 6 yrs old.

It's interesting, but it doesn't help anyone to stop living for the Kingdom of Self and start living for the Kingdom of Heaven.

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Alright... you may have moments of non clarity regarding the truth and this is evident in that you have to go to other men to get interpretations. I do not have such a need.

The Truth is there in front of my eyes... the brain in my head was given to me by the Creator.. and my heart is following after the Truth (my Father), so why should another man need to give me his interpretations in order for me to have clarity?

Why does a brain surgeon need training? Why does a mechanic need training? Why do any of us need an education? Why do we have road maps?

Do we learn from those who walked before us and discovered the hidden dangers, or do we just walk the path and right off the cliff?

I follow along the very carefully laid out path that my Father has placed me on.

How does one follow blindly words that are written down? HOw does one follow after men rather than following after the Father?

It makes no sense to me. *shrugs*

Originally posted by redhead57
reply to post by John Matrix

 

I have no beef with you, or with the writings of the ancients. I do not see it as the absolute, inspired word of god, but as a collection of the history of the Jews and a chronicle of the life of Jesus and the formation of the early church.

With some good insights, teaching and guidence too.

All things work together for good to them that love the Lord. Loving the Creator and honoring that love in our lives is what is important. The kingdom of god is within, not an outward set of rules and conditions.

We agree.

Take a peek at the gospels and the writings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, there is so much of value in those texts, which were purposely excluded. The NT makes reference to the book of Enoch as that was a very popular text at that time, yet it was omitted.

I have read them all, and still seek to gobble up more. It's my life's passion. I even read "Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health" the book so many Christians feared back in the early 1970's.

We could go round and round with the topic. We see things differently on some issues and the same on others. One thing we can agree on is the most important: There is a creator, and love is the key. Anything else is extra.

Yep, But I think the areas you think we do not agree on are fewer than you think, and not all that significant either.

Originally posted by justamomma
How does one follow blindly words that are written down? HOw does one follow after men rather than following after the Father?

It makes no sense to me. *shrugs*

Me neither. When you find the answer come back and let me know. Until then,

When the world gets in my face I say, Have a nice Day ----(Bon Jovi)

Have a nice day!

Originally posted by John Matrix
What has physics done to establish Divine Character in your Soul?

I study metaphysics, astrophysics, quantum-physics, etc.
It's funny that I knew all the stuff they teach about thoughts as being real, having energy, effecting reality, having magnetism, gravity, attracting other supportive thoughts, etc. all back when I was a child of 6 yrs old.

It's interesting, but it doesn't help anyone to stop living for the Kingdom of Self and start living for the Kingdom of Heaven.

Not going to get into a urinating contest with you. I've been blessed and lucky, and that is all I will say on it. You are just trying to build yourself up as credible and one who has authority. But you aren't going to win using that route with me. I've studied those other areas as well.

Here's 2 posts I've made on those topics.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by badmedia
Here's 2 posts I've made on those topics.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And yet, even a 5 year old can throw and catch a baseball without knowing or understanding physics.

Good for you. But I asked you if any of this does anything to establish God's character in you.

I know it doesn't, so never mind.


[edit on 25/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by John Matrix
Good for you. But I asked you if any of this does anything to establish God's character in you.

I know it doesn't, so never mind.

Are you trying to claim that years of bible study is what establishes God's character in you?

reply to post by badmedia


Badmedia, he understands that which cannot be seen. You share his logic... theres nothing you can say to help him beacuse you both use faith to define your beliefs. If you cling to illiogical ideas then how can you blame somone else for doing the same? Its a pitty really... so much would get done if we would just stick to logic, but that would mean the death of the "old man".

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by John Matrix
Good for you. But I asked you if any of this does anything to establish God's character in you.

I know it doesn't, so never mind.

Are you trying to claim that years of bible study is what establishes God's character in you?

No, it is focusing on:
1. the Divine Nature and partaking in it,
2."imitating those who through faith and patience inherit the promise",
3. desiring to have God Like character established in us
that brings about changes in character(not a complete list) and all this is done from a pure motive, love for God, for the Kingdom of God, not for an impure motive which is for the Kingdom of Self.

Originally posted by John Matrix
No, it is focusing on:
1. the Divine Nature and partaking in it,
2."imitating those who through faith and patience inherit the promise",
3. desiring to have God Like character established in us
that brings about changes in character(not a complete list) and all this is done from a pure motive, love for God, for the Kingdom of God, not for an impure motive which is for the Kingdom of Self.

And exactly how do you learn what the Divine Nature is?

How do you know Jesus is even right to begin with?

And having a god like character established in you? You mean to sell your soul again? Because news flash, your soul is already part of the father, and the father has always been in you. The difference is in recognizing him. Ever heard the footprints poem?

reply to post by Wertdagf


Analogy: Let's say you walk up to a light switch that is turned off. You don't see the electricity in the wall, but you know it's there and you know when you flip the switch the light is going to go on...well, that is Faith.

I can't see God, but I know he is there.
I can't see His Divine Nature, but I know it is in and manisfests through true believers.
I can't see the Holy Spirit perform circumcision on my heart and mind to strip away all the bad habits of my old sin nature, but I know it happens.
I cannot see my Spirit, but I know it's in me, etc.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Badmedia, he understands that which cannot be seen. You share his logic... theres nothing you can say to help him beacuse you both use faith to define your beliefs. If you cling to illiogical ideas then how can you blame somone else for doing the same? Its a pitty really... so much would get done if we would just stick to logic, but that would mean the death of the "old man".

You apparently don't even understand logic, but yet ask others to stick to it. Critical thinking is all about using your logic, and you laughed that, even though it's something pretty much every scientists does, and Einstein was one of the best at doing it.

Seriously, you talk about logic and things, but you can't even tell the difference between the creation and the creator. You don't seem to get that consciousness is what creates and understands logic, not the other way around. There is no logic that can explain consciousness, if you can prove otherwise I can make you rich. Straight up, if you can even provide just the logic behind consciousness you will have uncovered one of the biggest mysteries of mankind, bigger than the discovery of an ET. There is a reason they say you can't understand the father using logic, it's because the father is pure consciousness, and there is no logic for it. Only the creation itself do we understand using logic.

I asked you a few questions, and you have continued to ignore them.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by John Matrix
No, it is focusing on:
1. the Divine Nature and partaking in it,
2."imitating those who through faith and patience inherit the promise",
3. desiring to have God Like character established in us
that brings about changes in character(not a complete list) and all this is done from a pure motive, love for God, for the Kingdom of God, not for an impure motive which is for the Kingdom of Self.

1. And exactly how do you learn what the Divine Nature is?
2. How do you know Jesus is even right to begin with?
3. And having a god like character established in you?
4. You mean to sell your soul again?
5. Because news flash, your soul is already part of the father, and the father has always been in you.
6.The difference is in recognizing him.
7. Ever heard the footprints poem?

1. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God and believers have the mind of Christ.
2. How do you know He is not right to begin with?
3. Yes, that is what God wants us to turn our wills toward as believers.
4. No, that is your assumption, and it is a false one.
5. The spirit is reborn, the Soul consists of the heart, mind, and subconscious mind including all memories. The Spirit is the vessel through which the Holy Spirit works on our soul to cleanse it. This Spiritual process is called the True circumcision of the Heart. As this process moves forward the Soul is cleansed and the heart and mind and soul is renewed, enlightened, illuminated and transformed.
6. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One in Spirit. their attributes and Nature are the same, but they have some separate functions.
7. Yes, It was read at my first wedding along with the Desiderata about 30 some years ago.

Ever read: 'The Transformation of the Inner Man' by John and Paula Sanford?

reply to post by badmedia

By your own logic. Tell me, why are they unable to bring people back to life after the "soul" leaves? If you were anywhere near correct, then they wouldn't have to worry about keeping the "soul" alive, it would automatically kick back to life when repaired. After all, it's just chemicals and such right? And yet, it doesn't do that does it?

Here is some more proof of your ignorance. Brain death occurs after minutes of oxygenated blood not reaching the brain... if the cells continued to reamin nourished then the body could be revived hours later... and has been in extreme cold water drownings.

Ok fine, and to what is that reality presented to? I have asked you mulitple times now, and you have not even attempted to answer. If it is just electrical signals(patterns) and chemicals, then to what are they being presented to? Personally, I think it is delusional thinking to believe that the state of electrical signals and chemicals is able to bring about consciousness, and a state of understanding.

Where do you draw the line at where a collection of cells gains a "soul". do animals have souls? do plants? do bacteria or viruses? Reality is interpreted by your brain... just beacuse we cannot understand how all of this creates your thoughts and emotions does NOT make it false... it is still a possiblity that conciousness is a natural side effect to reality. Saying anything other than that is what is delusional, but i wouldnt want you to forefit your soul.

How can you be deceived? If you don't have free will, then how can you be deceived? You are just going to do whatever it is that controls you makes you do. Do you purpose to say that you can "choose" what you believe and what you act on? The only way you could be deceived is if you had the free will to choose 1 thing over another. Apparently, like most Christians you don't actually believe the things you say

Im speaking to your logic not mine... i could use correct lingo that applys to such an undersatnding, but then you would have no idea what im saying. i have to use your words to talk to you.



[edit on 25-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Please allow me to interject here gentlemen.
Logic as I understand it would seem to dictate that it is premature to make any factual call about the existence or lack there of a soul. Seeing as to how there isn't really a way to prove or disprove it. Sure you can make it sound logical either way based on your audience but your both calling what you want to believe for whatever reasons true and logical.

Your both of course welcome to your beliefs but that is all they are. Unsubstantiated beliefs.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Wow! Alot of thoughts here about this thread.

Hello John and all,

I can see how it would be hard with a thread like this to keep up with everyones questions.

John, you stated that I see alot for having never of met you. I see that you believe in a God that is able to hate, loose hope and use power to bring people to worship. This says alot about people. I see that you believe there is justification in killing in self defense, this also speaks volumes.

1.Would you be able to remain rightous if man tried to take your life of flesh?

2.What does turn the other cheek mean to you?

3.What is so divine about a nature that eventually looses hope, reacts in hate, anger, ect....aren't we supposed to be overcoming such primal ways? Why over come those ways, just to fall back to them?

I weigh your vine the same way I weigh the vines of ones nature, even the God claimed in the Bible. Man has always had a problem with accepting what divine nature is, due to our primal ways of solving problems with impulsive behaviors. I think the Divine is more perfect then that.

Wisdom has always been sought, but usually, this wisdom begets power in the man, which causes the ego to rule over humbleness.

I believe all paths teach something, but paths can also leave one at a stand still...in thinking they know all they need to know.

I think we are meant for more of a purpose then to be a fallen kind that is in need of Jesus to come one day and force a new world here. I think we are evolving, as spiritual beings, and we have always been loved beyond measure. I think the expectations of us all is much bigger then spreading the word that we all need to fear this God that is going to come swipe those away that haven't figured things out yet.

My best,
LV

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Please allow me to interject here gentlemen.
Logic as I understand it would seem to dictate that it is premature to make any factual call about the existence or lack there of a soul. Seeing as to how there isn't really a way to prove or disprove it. Sure you can make it sound logical either way based on your audience but your both calling what you want to believe for whatever reasons true and logical.

Your both of course welcome to your beliefs but that is all they are. Unsubstantiated beliefs.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Not exactly Sir!
We know we have a living body that is inseparable from the Soul and the soul is comprised of our mind, consciousness, subconsciousness(heart), and a will.

I Believe(my opinion) that Man was originally created with a different body, soul and Spirit, not comprised of materiality. Our material bodies are the result of the Fall of mankind through disobedience to God. Our Spirit was also effected, which is why Jesus said we need to be born again of water and spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Without the rebirth we have a fallen Body and Soul with a need for a Spiritual rebirth. The spiritual rebirth prepares our fallen Soul for Life in the Kingdom when we die, and to glorify God while we remain on earth. The Holy Spirit works through our reborn Spirit to clean the soul of the scars and sinful habits left behind by living a sinful life for the Spirit of this world. In this new state we are to live for the Spirit of God.