Complaint after OAP shot by Taser

Complaint after OAP shot by Taser

news.bbc.co.uk

The case of an 89-year-old man, who was shot with a Taser gun by officers, has been referred to a police watchdog.

Police said they used the device as the pensioner was threatening to cut his throat with a piece of glass in a street in Llandudno, Conwy.

His family have now made an official complaint, which was referred by North Wales Police to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC).

The force said afterwards officers made a judgement to protect his life.

North Wales Police said all complaints over Tasers are dealt with by the IPCC.

It was then up to the watchdog to decide whether to hold an investigation.

(visit the link for the full news article)

This astounds me!

Someone is threatening to kill themselves so they shoot him with a taser??????????????????

Did they consider that sending 50,000 volts through an 89 year old might actually do just what he was trying to do anyway?

It's outrageous.

Why couldn't they just talk to him. Do the police these days not have communication skills?

The poor man was clearly upset over something - or perhaps mentally ill.

Poor bloke. Poor family. Stupid police.

Llandudno as well - they surely have better people to tase there.

Peace,

MGGG

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

Didn't you hear? the interpersonal communication skills of police officers have been replaced by the taser! Poor old man.

"Why couldn't they just talk to him. Do the police these days not have communication skills? "

They do it because they know they will get away with it. They must get pleasure from it also - perhaps some sort of 'torturegasm' ..(such as described by history's most notorious serial killers)

Whilst i think it is unthinkable to use a Taser on someone of that age, has anyone looked at the other side of the coin?

What if this oap was so serious that he actualy went ahead and did it? Would people be crying out that he died whilst police stood by with non-lethal weapons which could of saved him?

Is there an age beyond the Taser should not be used?

In the line of duty, I have personaly seen oap's act in a threatening way with firearms and blades, ok not often but it has happened. Would you rather Tase them, or let them carry on with what they are doing due to their fragile age?

It's a difficult one, and don't get me wrong, even as an ex MP i think a lot of the police these days are OTT with the power trip they are on. I do agree with Tasers, but think this must be one of those times when it's a tough call for the cop.

People are making their minds up from one article, and lets not forget, many of those who will reply here will be very anti establishment/authority/police (unless they need the police themselves someday )

Who is to say that the police had not exhausted all lines of communication and this was a last resort before the guy killed himself?

CX.

reply to post by CX



"Whilst i think it is unthinkable to use a Taser on someone of that age, has anyone looked at the other side of the coin? "

Here to play the role of Police State Apologist, aren't you?

How do you feel about Cattle-prods for use on animals - should we bring them back now that similiar (albeit exponentially more powerful) electro-torture devices are now used on Humans?

Please take your propaganda and dialectic-based arguments elsewhere - or at least try to be less obvious.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by CX

 

"Whilst i think it is unthinkable to use a Taser on someone of that age, has anyone looked at the other side of the coin? "

Here to play the role of Police State Apologist, aren't you?

Not at all, in fact your comment is almost funny. Please don't assume you know a person purely by a post on a forum. I have been in situations where oap's have acted as deadly as teenagers, i'm talking incidents where they could have easily have been shot for their actions.

Would i have welcomed a Taser on my side in those situations? Damn right i would if i thought it could prevent something a lot worse.

As a side note, i have been on the receiving end of poor police treatment as a civillian, and i have my beef with some police as much as the next person here. I often see cops behaving in ways that make feel sad that they even made it into the force. Then again i see a lot of good cops too.

It just gets me that people post comments about the police and make it plainly clear that they are tarring ALL police with the same brush. None of us were at this incident, we are all reacting to what we read.

Even if ALL the cops in your area are evil in your opinion, that does not go for the rest of the real world.

Please take your propaganda and dialectic-based arguments elsewhere - or at least try to be less obvious.

I am just offering another point of view to the incident. If people cannot handle that, should they really be on a forum that debates issues as much as ATS does?

Are you being any less obvious in how you feel about the police by displaying that poster on your previous post? Should i assume that you think this is the way EVERY single officer on the planet behaves?

I have no right to think that it is how you feel, but if it is, i seriously suggest you take the hate blinkers off. Not all cops are police state thugs.

Just out of interest, i would love to hear what you would have done in this situation? Maybe you've experienced how easy it is to talk to someone or judge their next action when they have knife against their own throat?

CX.

This man had escaped as such from a Nursing Home.

He obviously was not happy at the terrible care, or lack of proper support offered to the elderly in modern Life.

He probably has Dementia or some form of it so he was suffering from a Psychotic episode.

It is all too common in the UK for the police to either pepper spray or CS Gas or now Tazer those who are in a Psychiatric emergency. It shows a total lack of training or resources in behalf of the authorities, as is the wide spread use of "Downers" and other such drugs to keep the residents, and those of any Mental health, or Elderly Mentally Infirm units easy to manage, because of a lack of Money and staff ratios into the system to look after them.

Mental health services have come under fire in an independent report that raises concerns on a range of issues - not least the use of CS gas to restrain patients on the wards.

The review also expressed concerns about the level of drug abuse on the wards and high level of use of the act to detain people from ethnic minority backgrounds.

It criticised low levels of interaction between carers and patients and low levels of staffing.

The review - the eighth biennial report of the Mental Health Act Commission - is published on the eve of the government's review of mental health services.

Significant failings

Gordon Lakes, acting chairman of the commission, said: "It is a fundamental principle that those subject to compulsion by reason of a mental disorder should be assured of an appropriate standard of care and treatment."

BBC

Further:

New warnings for anti-psychotic drugs and elderly patients

You have to wonder, what took so long?

On Monday, the Food and Drug Administration announced that it would require strong warnings on anti-psychotic drugs advising that they raise the risk of death in older people with dementia.

At issue are so-called “conventional” anti-psychotic medications such as Haldol, Compazine, Mellaril and Thorazine. (For a complete list, see the FDA’s press release.) A similar warning was issued for “atypical” anti-psychotics, including Risperdal and Zyprexa, in 2005.

Neither class of medication is approved for elderly dementia patients, but they’re frequently prescribed any way for symptoms such as agitation, combativeness or out-of-control behavior. The FDA gives doctors discretion to prescribe for “off label” purposes.

Chicago Tribune

also:

LEAD: More than a decade after a Federal study found serious overuse and misuse of powerful drugs in nursing homes, many patients are still being drugged into a stupor just to make them easier to care for.

NY Times

The risks to mortality are found here:

Anti-psychotic drugs commonly used to treat Alzheimer's disease may double a patient's chance of dying within a few years, suggests a new study that adds to concerns already known about such medications. For the vast majority of Alzheimer's patients, taking these drugs is probably not a worthwhile risk, said Clive Ballard, the paper's lead author, of the Wolfson Centre for Age-Related Diseases at King's College London. Would I want to take a drug that slightly reduced my aggression but doubled my risk of dying?

MSNBC


Obviously the "Carers" and "Doctors" had not got this mans drug levels to a satisfactory level to make him placate, he woke up from the hell of watching TV in a room all day with 40 other people not cared for properly, got frustrated, wanted out did a runner, so they abused him further.

This is about one thing $ and £ if the correct level of staffing is in place any behaviour can be managed on a PRN basis for drug use, which means it is only given at very very severe times of distress maybe 5 times a year, to stop someone hurting themselves, proper observation, support, distraction and LOVE of these people , just walking for a few hours with them till its wandered off safely will mean they burn out the aggression in safe way without being poisoned or Tazered.

It reminds me of hundreds of years ago when people were Burnt at the stake or confined as being possessed just because they have epilepsy....

It is disgusting wrong and across the whole range of mental Health services in both the US and UK, don't provide the proper care then when crisis happens punish the Patient.

I am not surprised though.

I am not 100% sure as I was not there, but I am pretty confident that with the delayed reactions and reactions to distraction such as one flanking the gentleman, and another one shouting loud and almost screaming his name from the other side... he would have fixated on that, whilst the other officer retrained his hands quickly with the glass in it.

Myself I currently spend a lot of time in care of a family member with Demetia, who is still in the community as I have experience of the Mental Health field and advocating for their rights, and was called a few years ago whilst that person was in a Hospital at 2am in the morning, as the doctors and nurses couldn't cope with a Psychotic episode brought on by a water infection.

I arrived she was terrified hallucinating, locked in a toilet had woken up the entire Ward, trying to do a runner with hardly any clothes on....12 mins later no meds in bed holding my hand talking all night, but did not remember who I was at the time, so it was not familiarity, just bad bad training in all aspects of the health service for the real needs, and psychology behind a Psychotic episode.

Lock them Up drug them and comply, seems to be the norm.

Kind Regards,

Elf

Just to add, I heard a very moving and wonderfully done piece of undercover investigative journalism on BBC Radio4 last year on this topic.

It is very revealing, though a one week glance does not really show you the endless days and nights for many in this situation, and is only from one home.

Anyhow a 70 Yr old went undercover and recorded an Audio Diary,

very touching and moving I recommend anyone who is facing retirement, or who is trying to decide what's best for a Loved one to listen to this:

It is here on real player: Life In A Care Home Real MP3

And it was the mundane details secretly recounted by Debbie into her tape recorder that were most powerful: the ‘odd smell’, the lack of fresh air or fruit, the TV constantly switched on, the boredom and loneliness, the early nights - “the earliest I’ve been in bed for years”, the kind and jolly staff and the next door voice crying-out unheard. “Take no notice - she’s just old,” Debbie was advised.

And the next comment is the most moving and true:

She said: “I am doing this because I feel at least I can give people who are in the homes a voice. When you are in a home you can’t complain. You are afraid of what might happen to you.”

Sound Communication.Org

I feel a society can be measured of its true worth by how it treats its elderly, and those who are in their own mental anguish young as well. It comes to all of us Old Age if we are lucky enough to get there, many of the current elderly fought in Wars for our liberties and wealth, and 1 in around 6 worldwide will suffer from a Mental health Crisis at some point in their lives.

Mind - UK

NORSAD - Worldwide Research & Charity Mental Health

Sane regards,

Elf.

all this tasering....zues himself would proud!

something has got to be done,tasers are being proved to be a lethal weapon!.

bring out the sticky trap foam!

or if someone brave enough- a harmonic EM weapon which renders the opponent unconsious or to collapse,but that would involve publicy admitting mind control is a peace of cake...never gonna happen.

She said: “I am doing this because I feel at least I can give people who are in the homes a voice. When you are in a home you can’t complain. You are afraid of what might happen to you.”

fear is what holds the human species back,if we conquer our fear our enemies will crumble,fear is their greatest weapon and out biggest weakness.

hold no fear when the path is rightious ,for those who walk the rightious path are in the graces of those who can instill it,though it is a hard one their is no more important nor needed path to walk.

in other words complain freely , fear is our prison , if we succumb to fear we will never be free.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by welivefortheson]

I'll have to side with CX in this one.

Whilst I do understand that with all the articles about police brutality and taser abuse people will view this as yet another ''trigger-happy'' event (and perhaps it is) you have to keep in mind that the old man threatened to kill himself, and was perfectly capable of doing it within seconds.

Regardless of taser or not, if he was truly determined to commit suicide at that moment, he would do so.

The problem however, is that the article doesn't show us the full turn of events, all it says is that some kind of ''judgement'' was made by specially trained people.

So the question remains, did they actually try to talk him into dropping the glass? How did this ''judgement'' come to pass?

I don't know about cops there, but I do know that in my country not every cop is a ''trigger happy bad cop''.

It is funny that animal control officers can take down bears, cougars, and any other number of dangerous animals from a distance with a tranquilizer dart, but the "brave boys in blue" need to shock and beat people into submission, or shoot them in the back in order to "control" the situation.
I am amused that police think that people who complain about them will stop when they need them. I have tried to get police assistance for numerous issues, and ended up more frustrated than before i had called them. I will NEVER call the police for assistance again, i would rather solve my problems on my own, not create more by bringing untrustworthy outsiders in.