Independent Groups Debunk Israeli War Propaganda

Independent Groups Debunk Israeli War Propaganda

www.alternet.org

All U.N. schools in Gaza are clearly marked, and they fly the Organization's distinctly discernible blue-and-white flags.

Moreover, he told reporters, Israel has been provided with Global Positioning System (GPS) coordinates of all of UNRWA's installations in Gaza.

So there could not have been a misidentification of the U.N. school in the Jabaliya refugee camp whose compound was hit by an artillery shell early this week.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Shows that Israel knew what they were doing. How are there no consequences? This has to end before Israel kills more innocent people in the crossfire.
"313 women and children dead, 1,532 wounded.
In contrast, the total number of Israeli deaths, both military and civilian, was about 10, including by friendly fire, according to press reports."



www.alternet.org
(visit the link for the full news article)

It just shows that Israel has no regard for world opinion...Israel will do what Israel wants to do. Both the UN security council and the Arab nations have called for an immediate ceace fire..Israel carries on. Are they above the law? what can we do to stop them? Nothing........ because they have infiltrated the core of every nation.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by sueloujo]

The following quote from 2002, cited in a recent NYTimes Op-Ed piece is one of the most telling I have yet seen -

A) There are cases of friendly fire, on clearly Israeli military target with lethal results. So all the GPS, flags and such cannot help if 19-year old person in tank/artillery piece enters wrong coordinates/feels that he is fired upon from destination X and he shoots there or simply is too scared to think streight. So indeed mistakes can happen.
B) Israel officially does not claim that it were mistake anyway. Local media pushes that those places were used as fire bases by Hamas or simply that Hamas militants fired from near-by location.
C) Israel only looses from firing upon civilian and especially UN locations. No possible gain can be made from firing upon people who try to hide in UN building from the hell outside. Those people clearly do not want this conflict anyway.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Hmmm... to take your points in order:

a) You are of course correct in that human errors are possible, but isn't this at least the third time that they hit UN targets? Seems improbable that the sweaty fingered teenager with the GPS would "accidentally" type in a UN location every time his fingers slip.

b) The claims that Hamas have been firing from the UN locations are solely those of Israeli officials and no evidence has been presented to support these claims.
And if Hamas was in the habit of using UN locations as firing positions you'd think that the UN workers & officials would have made some sort of noise about it.

c) While it's true that Israel is getting a lot of bad pr. from attacking these positions it would appear that they are beyond caring.
If you consider the quote from the NY Times above you it actually makes perfect sense: This sends a message to the Palestinians that even the UN & the Red Cross are unable to help them; that they as a people are alone, powerless & defeated.

In my thread Revisionist Zionism, I show that the current political parties in Israel are dominated by the same groups for decades, which before Israel, were groups called Irgun and Lehi, which were considered terrorist organizations for their brutal attacks, and bombings against the British.

Do you really expect much more from the Israeli government when these parties were founded off right wing Jewish extremists?

Israeli government and Hamas are both terrorist, the Israeli government is just far more effective at it right now.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by visible_villain
The following quote from 2002, cited in a recent NYTimes Op-Ed piece is one of the most telling I have yet seen -

www.nytimes.com...
This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Which echos the point of revisionist Zionists. Their intent was never to genocide the Arab's in Palestine., The intent was to beat them down until they gave up any hope of getting the Zionists out of Palestine, then have them concede to Zionism being a fact of life in Palestine.

Thus accepting the Jewish government of the land, and its laws.

That has been the point right from the early 1920's.

Reply to patent98310

This has to end before Israel kills more innocent people in the crossfire.
"313 women and children dead, 1,532 wounded.

I have no doubt Israel is responsible for many of these deaths. However, isn't it possible that could be responsible for some of these deaths as well? Bullets have no names. And I am sure Hamas has set booby traps that civilians might encounter first.

reply to post by MrVertigo


I did not claim that all the cases are mistakes. Article says that since IDF had coordinates of X then artillery hitting it could not be a mistake. But it could. Easily. Three shells in a row hitting a UN building -probably could not. So there must be mistakes - just as IDF shoots (and sometimes kills) at IDF forces, civilians/UN could be shot at.
As for claims about Hamas operating in the buildings - could be lies of course. I heard (once again, from local media) that on certain occasion UN agreed that there were militants in the area.
And what exactly can UN workers do if militants are in the same building as them? They are not armed, they are busy with caring for lot of people over there, they are scared of IDF, they are scared of Hamas. What could they do? Also take in the account that vast majority of UN workers are Palestinians from Gaza them-self. If they will mess with Hamas - it will take its revenge on them later. Not to mention that there must be Hamas supporters or even operatives among them (since almost half of Gaza residents voted for Hamas). It is not that clear. Anyway - it is Israel that must prove if Hamas was there or not. Not UN personal who got shot at.
I still fail to see what Israel wins from supposedly on-purpose shooting at Palestinians who fled to UN protection. If they look for protection - they already cannot think that they are winning. Israel indeed does all it can to show Hamas militants that their are beaten. What good will it do to do the same to refugees? Only harm can come out of it.

reply to post by grimreaper797

Thus accepting the Jewish government of the land, and its laws.

And it is wrong since for centuries before that Palestinian Arabs were the government or made the laws? Care to prove?
Even today, a lot of Israeli laws are combination of the same Turkish and British laws that ancestors of current Palestinians lived according to for ages.
Turkish law - ok.
Jewish law - ow those bloody evil Zionists.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Um, no, that isn't really it. See in 1919-1921 Britain promised the Arab people of Palestine the land and their own Independent government.

A little fact you may not have known when Britain was pressing the Ottoman empire back into current day turkey, many Palestinian Arabs actually helped the British because Britain was promising to make them an independent state.

The Jewish population was okay with a mixed state, so long as Jewish people always remained the majority and created the laws. Laws are based on morality, thus culture of a certain group. This groups culture conflicts DIRECTLY with the culture of the Muslims, as was displayed in the 1920's during the time Britain had Palestine under the Mandate and both Palestinians and Immigrant Jews were living with each other. Tensions constantly broke out, along with riots. The two cultures had many disagreements and Britain eventually gave up conceding it was near impossible to ever get them to work out their differences.

The Arab Palestinians are not unjustified to not want to live under Israels law of the land.

As they say, history is written by the victors.

reply to post by grimreaper797


Was not cultural clash the whole reason for division of the province? Or actually two divisions?
I mean - land was promissed by British to Jews too and earlier then 1920.This resulted in massive Jewish emigration to Palestine. So once hundreds of thousands of Jews were there - it was kind of no-stop process.
By the way - your weird claim that Arabs do not have to obey "Jewish" rule kind of supports what Jabotinsky said. I read your thread, and considered it as a solid and really invested one i fail to see how you say that it is ok not to obey rules of the country one lives in - without it conflict will claim blood internally.Is that your wish? Israel is there, it is a fact. There are several generations of people born there. Jews and Arabs. Your point is that since Zionism had an idea to establish Jewish home it is ok now to keep fighting. Well - it pretty much hundreds of thousands of corpses you talk about. At least.
Also - please explain that:
If Jewish settlers will refuse to move out to proper Israel in the final stages of peace agreement - will it be ok for them not to obey Palestinian rule since culture is different? After all - they lived there before Palestine was established. As Arabs lived in the land before Israel was established in 1948.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Was not cultural clash the whole reason for division of the province? Or actually two divisions?

Cultural clash was the ATTEMPTED reason for the division of the province. None of the time did the division ever work out. Britain gave up and the UN tried to divide it, and that ended up in war.

A war that has never truly ended mind you.

I mean - land was promissed by British to Jews too and earlier then 1920.This resulted in massive Jewish emigration to Palestine. So once hundreds of thousands of Jews were there - it was kind of no-stop process

Yes but Britain later made it evidently clear it had no original intent to create a Jewish state, merely a place for the Jews to immigrate and call home. It was the Revisionist Zionists that aimed to make an official Jewish state. When Britain didn't go along with it, the revisionist Zionists actually attacked the British.

quote]
By the way - your weird claim that Arabs do not have to obey "Jewish" rule kind of supports what Jabotinsky said.

No it doesn't, my claim was that they would not accept Jewish rule, and the Revisionist Zionists accepted this fact before the process had even started. It was obvious that the Arab population would not accept the Jewish immigrants coming over, taking over the government, and making it a Jewish government. This was a matter of fact to the Zionists themselves.

As a result, you can conclude that the Zionists anticipated violence from their actions, and that is in no way self defense. Provoking somebody to attack is not self defense.

I read your thread, and considered it as a solid and really invested one i fail to see how you say that it is ok not to obey rules of the country one lives in - without it conflict will claim blood internally.

That is the ENTIRE point. The revisionist Zionists had no intent of avoiding violence. That was the point of the entire article. The Zionists anticipated the violence as a result of this mass immigration/attempt to take over the government. Blood shed was inevitable and anticipated.

Is that your wish?

That is the revisionist Zionists wish.

Israel is there, it is a fact. There are several generations of people born there. Jews and Arabs.

It is not a matter of fact to some Arab Palestinians, that is why the fighting continues. If the Arab Population did accept it as matter of fact, the Zionist aim listed in Jabotinsky's writings would be completed.,

Your point is that since Zionism had an idea to establish Jewish home it is ok now to keep fighting. Well - it pretty much hundreds of thousands of corpses you talk about. At least.

The fighting will never stop till either Palestine gives up and accepts that Zionism is part of Palestine, now Israel, or the Israeli's leave. That isn't want I want, it is matter of fact.

None of this is what I want, it just is. I intended to state facts, not desires, on this issue.

Also - please explain that:
If Jewish settlers will refuse to move out to proper Israel in the final stages of peace agreement - will it be ok for them not to obey Palestinian rule since culture is different?

Okay? No. Expected? Definitely. Same with the Palestinians. Is it right or wrong? Who cares. Right and wrong is a matter of perspective, and the two sides utterly disagree on what is right and wrong. In their own opinions they are right and the other is wrong. That is why there will ALWAYS be conflict in that area, unless one side simply gives up.

After all - they lived there before Palestine was established. As Arabs lived in the land before Israel was established in 1948.

So, its not about who lives there before, it was who was promised the independent statehood after the oppressive Ottoman empire collapsed.

reply to post by patent98310


Good find.

There comes a time when these incidents mount up so much you cannot keep blaming such things on mistakes,human error,tech problems etc etc.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
In my thread Revisionist Zionism, I show that the current political parties in Israel are dominated by the same groups for decades, which before Israel, were groups called Irgun and Lehi, which were considered terrorist organizations for their brutal attacks, and bombings against the British.

Do you really expect much more from the Israeli government when these parties were founded off right wing Jewish extremists?

Israeli government and Hamas are both terrorist, the Israeli government is just far more effective at it right now.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by grimreaper797]

And let's nor forget us British are sending warhsips to Gaza www.abovetopsecret.com...

Makes me wonder just exactly why? Especially considering the history of previous terrorism against us and the slim possibility of a false flag or misfire....

It's getting strange out there.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by mr-lizard]

Bottom line - Fighting fire with fire doesn't ever work!