There is no such thing as "un-natural".

Religion and spirituality aside, I found this concept to be rather intriguing. The human body is an expression of our DNA. Therefore, it can be argued, that what the body creates is as much an expression of DNA as our bodies themselves. Our DNA has been shaped and crafted by the natural process of selection and evolution on this Earth. Therefore, can it be argued, that human activity on this Earth (for a perceived good or ill) comes from a natural process and is therefore - natural.

I often wonder if mankind will be the last higher intelligent species on the planet to have purely biological roots. If mankind's intelligence is simply a natural and expected evolutionary stepping stone to the next stage of life. A transition from Carbon based, to silicon based life, by being the first species to create technology - then merge with technology - then transition into technology and beyond.

I wonder, should we find intelligent civilizations out there, would they also be going through a similar process?

I do not wish to sound as though I'm advocating the dumping of toxic waste into water supplies because it's "natural", however I seem to find myself highly disconnected from Earth-Firsters and pseudo-hippie spiritualists who think that mankind has found themselves on an errant path away from nature. That we should give up our civilizations and technology, by and large, to return to a more tribal or communal group that lives closer to the Earth. By advancing, I feel, that we are taking our rightful steps towards the future. We are on the right path, more or less. I do not feel that merging with technology is "unnatural", any more than I feel man's discovery of fire is "unnatural". I do not wish to hinder anyone who feels that they should themselves live closer to nature, or that that is the right path. Life propagates, after all, via diversity.

I don't really know where I'm going with this late night rant. I suppose I simply wish to throw out an opposing viewpoint to counter the belief that mankind is somehow "outside" or "removed" from nature, that it should be some sort of mark of shame for us.

reply to post by Lasheic


Hey cool post

I wonder, should we find intelligent civilizations out there, would they also be going through a similar process?

Yes.. they would have used the same things we have but! not the same stuff... i know that sounds abit mad but think of it this way..

Earth is a combo of matter "big rock thing" its not very diverse in what it holds "as we know"/ understand "see elemental table"

we are a product "of the earth" so im sure aliens being "living on planets" would more or less be like us..

I always think about what about aliens that dont live on a planet but evolved In space!

why not? same stuff in space as on the earth and every other thing

And just becouse its "ment" to be a vacum "i still think its possible"

S+F

Well, I kind of what to keep things here "on Earth". What I'm basically trying to get at is, we are currently in the 6th great massive extinction on our planet. We're loosing biodiversity at an astounding rate, and most of it is due to mankind's activities. This concept isn't new. It's generally accepted that the Dinosaurs weren't totally decimated by the K/T bolide, but that it was more the final nail in the coffin for an already highly stressed ecosystem. This, however, left life on Earth to propagate anew - allowing the mammals to arise.

Perhaps, mammals are at the end of an era. They won't go totally extinct, just like we still have reptiles, birds, fish, etc, that proceeded us. But perhaps this is a natural cycle that is ushering in a new era. With the technology we've uncovered, mankind is on the cusp of creating a new form of life the world has never seen before - one which has the potential to equal our current ecosystem in diversity and function. Only with one important difference. Mankind has learned how to create new species through selective breeding, and is now starting to be able to direct their own evolution by understanding and modifying their own genetic structure. I believe the first designer baby was recently born in Brittan that has had her genetic code altered to no longer make her susceptible to an inherited form of breast cancer.

Synthetic life, machines, would have the intrinsic ability to do this. To use selection, their environment, to dictate their evolution - but to actively modify themselves to that environment, rather than suffer the trial and error periods inherent to (semi) random mutation.

For instance, check this out.



If machines like the above are not un-natural, being a product of a natural system, then would that not constitute a further jump in the evolutionary process? What, intrinsically, is the greater value of the life of a mountain goat over that of one of these machines? What of an AI consciousness? Some may dismiss the concept out of hand, thinking that "robots can't have souls"... but... why not? Are we not greater than the sum of our neurons? If a soul can rest between the synapse, then why not between the transistor?

I don't mean to impart some vision of the Terminator, or the Matrix. I think that synthetic life and biological life will likely co-habitate, creating the same symbiotic/parasitic relationships we find between different species in nature. Or again, possibly even merge. However, this new life will have an advantage over traditional biological life in that it can adapt to climate and ecosystem change at a much accelerated pace.

What, intrinsically, would be un-natural about this? This is what I'm curious about, as we could just be a catalyst for the next great paradigm shift in life - and all we do is just kick ourselves for being "outside" of nature, when in fact, we're only behaving according to it.

My wondering about seeing this occur on other planets is more akin to seeing flying insects, birds, and bats - three completely separate taxonomic groups separated by over 400 million years of evolution - yet all display adaptations for flight due to a similar environmental condition. I simply question whether or not this step towards a technological biodiversity would be an aberration for us, or would occur naturally in any species that shows a substantial intelligence.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Lasheic]

so your talking about us tech wise?

I mean Everything we do comes from being here in that respect.. we have the understanding "some" to shape out enviroment.. thats what we do as humans.

Now if one is to ask.. how computers and souls work then i can say yes a computer of sorts does infact have a soul.. if you was to say its alive.. yes it is.. we "created" it.

I think aliens on other planets "baring" they used the same methods and understanding of there "enviroment" would understand that "tech" is our next step in evolution.

We dont need our body the only thing we do need is our Brain..

Now to hook up all this techy stuff to our nural pathways is just .. way to hard atm..

But I could see us as a collective much like the borg using our own minds as "chips" to further the collective "goal"..

Its not hard to think about what you are saying and in many ways i understand what you are..

Very interesting and in alot of ways correct.. tho one thing stands in the way

Morals.

always has always will untill we dump the god theory and stop waiting for dad to come home and kick our butts for doing something wrong...




oh just on someting

Think of how the internet works.. millions of people all giving there view and shaping it

The internet has no shape as we can see, but it is evolving just by our very own imput Into it kinda thing..

Its the same thing with humans and tech and evolving..

machines are OUR creation just like "god theory here" We are His..

Our computers are based on our Logical side... Our brains our based on LIFE

One is the outcome of the other.. And aliens will do just the same thing we do but using a different way of getting to the end game.

what is the endgame? "staying alive at all costs"

Thats why we have infinity ; )

[edit on 15-1-2009 by theresult]

It's perfectly natural for a more advanced species (on earth that's humans) to try and change an environment to suit themselves.

Other species on earth do it in their immediate environment.

As a species we are intelligent enough to know that some things are harmfull and others aren't - but because of the curse of money, some people just want to keep doing things they know are bad for the planet.

reply to post by budski


Are we really changing the environment merely to suit ourselves, or are we playing to the highly chaotic yet predictable tune of an emergent property of life? You say the "curse of money" causes man to damage his environment, but is the "Curse of Money" not a natural consequence of evolved behavior patterns? Therefore, wouldn't the apparently detrimental changes in the environment caused by the curse of money would be a natural and, perhaps predictable, change?

Who is there to say, truly, that our activities are detrimental to life on Earth? The current environment, surely, but doesn't history show that environments are constantly in a state of change? Ours activity may be causing our environment to change extremely rapidly compared to in the past, but couldn't that just be a precursor to an evolutionary shift towards faster and more specific adaptation?

reply to post by theresult

We dont need our body the only thing we do need is our Brain..

I question whether or not we even need that. As BCI's continue to improve, it will eventually only be a matter of time before we are able to upload or download our consciousness either via emulation or a working understanding of the complex emergent properties that go into forming and maintaining a consciousness. However, this will come at a consequence and humanity will have to answer some very tough questions. Namely, can a person maintain their individuality when the physical body is rendered meaningless? What of physical barriers to this defined by the limits of our brain operation were to be broken down? Further, can one consciousness in such a state maintain it's individuality after merging with a group consciousnesses over a network if a physical body reinforcement is no longer present or necessary?

Consider the Ship of Theseus paradox, in which - if a ship is restored piece by piece as it ages and decays as to one day eventually no longer constitute any of the original pieces of the ship. Is it still the same ship?

I do think humanity is quickly (over the next century or so) and rather blindly entering a time in which the most important questions for us to answer are some of the most basic philosophical questions that have plagued humanity. Namely, when the physical body is rendered meaningless, then just what is the importance of being human? Should we fear the answer to this?

I sometimes really wonder why religious folks haven't pondered on this - because it's obvious their concept of a soul seems to imply a physical form - yet the very nature of such a concept is far, far, beyond the physical. Whether your consciousness be floating free in a network or in the aether of the afterlife - what essentially is the difference?

To touch on the alien subject once again, I recall listening to a book on tape of Whitley Strieber's book "Transformation" - or something like that. He described his Grey visitors as something rather similar. Having physical bodies that are "recycled". That their natural state was not the physical space, but something else that he alluded to as the supernatural realms. This is why they do not fear death as we do.

Not to say that I believe what he has to say for a moment, but the concept does sound very familiar to territory we are currently headed towards.

But I could see us as a collective much like the borg using our own minds as "chips" to further the collective "goal"..

I really don't see this happening, or at least sustaining, as conformity is abhorred in nature. Life thrives and propagates via diversity and redundancy so as to overcome the inherent dangers of an unchanging system. Were humanity to become one mind with one directive, I see it becoming a quick death for our species. All it would take is one deleterious error, virus, or environmental condition to eradicate nearly the entire system that would share that weakness.

Think of how the internet works.. millions of people all giving there view and shaping it The internet has no shape as we can see, but it is evolving just by our very own imput Into it kinda thing..

We can point to any number of technologies or theories which have evolved via competition, even well beyond their intended use, and guided by no real intelligent purpose from the outset. The internet is a good example of an emergent technology that really was designed and shaped by no-one, but merely congealed out of multiple competing and differentiating technologies. It may have had a solid backbone that was intentionally designed, however the net in it's current form is very much self-arranged from the bottom up. Or rather a plethora of top down systems working on their own little bit of the system creating a massive whole that is far greater than the sum of it's parts from the bottom up.

However, I'm interested in what would happen should consciousnesses merge and propagate over a network. Would the many individual consciousnesses form a new consciousness? Would we recognize it if it were to form? Just as one neuron in the brain does not form a consciousness, many of them firing in tandem do. Would the formation of our consciousness be apparent on the synaptic level?

One would assume that neurons must be in the proper configuration and fire in a specific order for the brain to function properly. This is true, but defining the moment in which each individual synapse will fire and how often is nearly impossible despite observing the whole functioning at increased or lowered activity depending on the stimuli. For a comparison, it's thus far hopelessly impossible to predict what a single air molecule in a room will do. However, we can predict the properties of a volume of gas very accurately.

On a very primitive and base level, humanity is already taking this first leap, representative by the very message board we're on now. No physical bodies... just thought and consciousness relaying information back and forth across a network. This communication has always been with humanity, but the rate at which information was propagated across a network of human individuals was extremely slow. The first leap in speed came with the development of language, then literature, then the printing press. Now, information can be disseminated across the entire globe nearly instantaneously.


And again... this is all part of a naturally occurring emergent system. Who's to say that we are the top layer who has broken free of the bonds by virtue of free will? I prefer to think of us as a natural component of a natural system - and thank god that I am sentient enough to even attempt to recognize it for what it is.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by Lasheic]

Its all right to do bad things. but its better to do good things. Don't take things so literally, such as a wife or your social status. want a mansion and a car? maybe, maybe not. if you were given it for free you obviously would take it. but what if you saw a homeless man, and the thought crossed your mind, give him the house and car. would you?

probably not. this is why the world is messed up. egoistic people that care about themselves, and think its impossible to do otherwise.

I have a challenge for you. give all your stuff away, as i did. feel the feeling of regret, hatred, thinking your stupid, then feel the happiness my friend. Don't fall for the reality that was put forth. start over, mentally. as i did. i enjoyed it so much i decided to do it physically. thus i found happiness until death. things seem to work out for the best for me every time as well. reason why? i do not view anything as bad anymore, its simply a habit i got rid of. i encourage you to do the same.

I'm 17, looking at the big picture and its clear. its not the government, its the general perspective we all have. Not religion or anything, but how we view ourselves. We have a system, where regardless of who leads, they are inevitably psychotic.

The reason its hard to see some things is because you are the fish in the water. until you rise above that, good luck with the overall picture.