The Abortion Paradox

reply to post by King_John


-1+2=1 That's what I said the math was. Your way works just as well, still a positive number.

reply to post by Aermacchi


Let me start off by discussing your continuous inability to stay on topic, and instead, discuss me.

Have you ever noticed that every time you post it fails at remaining on topic? It always seems to drift off into personal attacks?

is that a threat Mick? said what about your mom mick?

I don't make threats. It is just a reality. It's easy to make a bold statement about someone's family Online, but I hope you have more sense about doing stuff like that in person.

You might just get your blocked knocked off.

May I remind you that YOU were the one telling us your Mom had an abortion. I said nothing to insult you or her other than the facts you gave and any number of reasons that cramped her lifestyle so much it was an imperative.

was it not? I mean I have no idea do I?

No, you don't have any idea. Exactly. You have no idea why she had it, when she had it, or any of the circumstances behind it, but that didn't stop you from passing judgment and, quite frankly, making a fairly bold and blunt statement of, "It cramped her lifestyle".

Now, luckily for you, there are many out there that share your views on abortion, probably some mods, so they probably didn't much mind. All I am saying is watch where you say that kind of stuff. Again, it's easy Online.

How does WHAT justify abortion? Mick, you lost me. Ok I see, you are being presumptuous again. Mick if I wanted to say it like that,, I WOULD but that isn't what I was saying and is the reason why I didn't say it like you imagine the "real meaning" must be.

I don't care what you think. That wasn't the point. The point was that you need to STAY ON TOPIC. This is the second thread that I've told you that the topic is not me, but rather what it says in the OP.

As for those who chose abortion and to bring back into context your use of quote mining my post, she may have had a reason like money or for some, career and in some rare cases, to save the life of the mother, but all of these are cramps to our lifestyle that woman decide are either worthy of making this decision.

That's a pretty lax usage of words.

I'm ending it on that note. I'll ask you one last time to keep the topic off of me and my family. You are not at an abortion protest, and I am not here for you to discuss my families choices. As you said yourself, you know nothing of my family or I, so how you could make rash decisions about them is beyond me.

I beg to differ mick and anyone reading my posts would have to see that BOTH xtrozero and myself are placing the focus of our inquiry on why you think it HAS to be the event of the abortion as the deciding criteria in your theory.

No, you were saying that abortion wouldn't change anything. You clearly stated that whether or not an abortion occurred, it was impossible to know whether or not the future children would exist.

Xtro was clearly saying why choose abortion when there are many other life events that cause the same issue. He/she brings up a valid point, there are many life altering events, but many of them are not protested and they are not hot-button issues.

Abortion has always been an issue that seems unresolvable. The big argument seems to be, "Well it's killing a baby and sending that soul to hell!" Well what about our souls? The fact of the matter is, no one knows if there is a God, no one knows if there are souls, and no one can really comment on that.

When it comes to straight up morality, there are babies being killed every day just because someone decided to use protection, or they decided that it wasn't the right time to have children.

Guess what, they just killed a baby because that baby would have existed if they made the other decision.



[edit on 1/17/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by King_John

 

-1+2=1 That's what I said the math was. Your way works just as well, still a positive number.

So what about the mother who uses abortion as birth control and has lets say 5 and later has 2 childern she keeps...that is -3 hehe

There really is not point to this, but I'll leave you with one emperical fact...

The Black population is 30% less today than it would have been if abortions were not so free and legal. I see that as a minus too on a very big scale.

there is no paradox
abortion kills baby humans
Below you will not see a rock or even a puppy!
It's a murdered baby!
www.circleofprayer.com...

reply to post by Xtrozero


To me, it was never about the math. Though I am not religious, it was supposed to be more geared towards religion. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, and then this must all be part of his plan.

But even not looking at religion, just morality, where do you draw the line? Wearing a condom is killing a baby then, since it would be alive if you had chosen not to. The morning-after pill is killing a baby since it would be alive had you not taken the pill. Deciding not to have a baby at the time is killing a baby since you chose not to have a child.

I mean that's a great point your brought up, there are babies not being born every day simply because of decisions people make. Better start making more baby killer signs!

reply to post by AmericanDaughter


You're right! I don't see a rock or a puppy! I see someone who didn't read the thread!

reply to post by Irish M1ck


did you also see a dead baby?
in case you didn't here's another:
www.bibleprobe.com...
there is no reason for this. there is no paradox.
abortion kills baby humans.




[edit on 17-1-2009 by AmericanDaughter]

reply to post by AmericanDaughter


This isn't the "here's why God says I am allowed to hate you" forum. It's the Philosophy, psychology, and metaphysics forum.

Did you want to comment on the thread?

reply to post by Irish M1ck


the thread is called
"The Abortion Paradox"
I commented and didn't use religion or God.
there is no paradox
abortion kills baby humans.
www.hyscience.com...

reply to post by AmericanDaughter


Did you have a comment on the opinion that not having an abortion kills babies for some people also?

Or are those kids just abominations?

[edit on 1/17/2009 by Irish M1ck]

I find that often, folks will base a decision of right and wrong on what they find in the Bible.

Since the Old Testament required absolute obedience, I thought I'd try to find out what it said.

Note that the penalty for murder was death.

Now, the penalty for hurting a woman so that she lost her "fruit" or unborn child was a money penalty.

Just based on this alone, I don't think that the Almighty equated an aborted child with a murder. Thus, one can only speculate on the soul part.

Is not one soul as valuable as another?

I think abortion is a horrible means of birth control however.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck

But even not looking at religion, just morality, where do you draw the line? Wearing a condom is killing a baby then, since it would be alive if you had chosen not to. The morning-after pill is killing a baby since it would be alive had you not taken the pill. Deciding not to have a baby at the time is killing a baby since you chose not to have a child.

I mean that's a great point your brought up, there are babies not being born every day simply because of decisions people make. Better start making more baby killer signs!

Well I'm looking at it purely as a social moral thing of what value do we put on life, and so can we add other lives to the list to indiscriminately kill if we do not want them? We say life is precious, but then we put conditions on what lives we want to be precious. Why not get to the point like the Nazis who killed the undesirables as they saw fit. I’m sure they had logical reasons to do it, but is that the social morals we would want?

I disagree that wearing a condom, or maybe just pulling out means the death of a child too, because that is talking about possibilities of conception and not actualities of conception. If my girl friend says she doesn't want sex then I guess she too just killed a child, so if we needed a starting point then maybe conception is a good place to say life starts as a human.

I'm also not totally black and white on this issue, but as the abortion movement has evolved in America I do see some very negative side effects of how we have become every efficient in doing them all based on economics.

reply to post by Xtrozero


I see your point, I truly do. At the same time, I also feel that there doesn't seem much difference to me. If you have an abortion, you have denied a life. If you wear a condom, you have denied a life. If you take the morning-after pill, you have denied a life.

What do you think about the morning-after pill?

[edit on 1/17/2009 by Irish M1ck]

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Let me start off by discussing your continuous inability to stay on topic, and instead, discuss me.

Perhaps you shouldn't start off by BEING off topic Mick, the very few times I have was in response to one of your off topic comments

Have you ever noticed that every time you post it fails at remaining on topic?

Yes I think I am noticing that but what does that have to do with me.

It always seems to drift off into personal attacks?

Well,, stop making them then

is that a threat Mick? said what about your mom mick?

I don't make threats. It is just a reality.

*yawn* Mick, a simple yes or no would have sufficed,, yeah yeah we get it, you think you're a tough guy, now can we get back to how flawed this theory is.

It's easy to make a bold statement about someone's family Online, but I hope you have more sense about doing stuff like that in person.

Oh for heavens sake mick, if you don't have something on me to alert the Mods for, strongly suggesting you do isn't going to make that any less false. Now I have bent over backwards being patient with this tact you keep using. If you accuse me of personal attacks, where each time you do, it seems that it is I that is being threatened, called stupid, and falsely accused of talking trash. Now, with the exception of this post been falsely accused of going off topic. THIS post notwithstanding and for obvious reasons, that is patently untrue and you know it.

Now, can we get back to the last post I made where I gave a considerable amount of reasons why this paradox theory if flawed.

No, you don't have any idea. Exactly. You have no idea why she had it, when she had it, or any of the circumstances behind it,

Ya THINK! C'mon now Mick, that is why I said I didn't have any idea because I DON'T. Even when I agree with you, you find something some way some how to disagree with it.

but that didn't stop you from passing judgment and, quite frankly

Now Mick,, I already explained this to you, now i don't have any idea why you INSIST on saying you know my thoughts better than I do.

Perhaps some guilt with you believing you are alive at the cost of another siblings life and you are sensitive to a thread topic YOU created, I can only speculate but it does seem rather over the top, even for you.

I have given you my honest opinion and attempted to quell any misgivings you had about what YOU perceived to be off color remarks

SEE BELOW:

I said nothing to insult you or her other than the facts you gave and any number of reasons that cramped her lifestyle so much it was an imperative. was it not? I mean I have no idea do I?

Now when ones finances can barely support their lifestyle, be it they are a single mom, or divorce has left them in debt etc; a baby would certainly put a cramp in that lifestyle making it a hardship to add insult to injury adding another mouth to feed. I can say that BOLDLY and I can say it BLUNTLY, but any "Judgement" passed was your own, placing your own meaning on it. Just how is it this disparages your Mom I haven't a clue moreover I thought it best to make clear I meant no dis respect but again, you seem to reject any attempts to get this dialog anywhere close to having a modicum of civility.

making a fairly bold and blunt statement of, "It cramped her lifestyle".

Oh yes yes OUCH!

I know how that seems when anyone makes an innocuous statment, how saying it BOLDY and BLUNTLY has the effect of,, (shakin head like a cartoon) a what again?????????
I can't seem to do anything right with you Mick.

luckily for you, there are many out there that share your views on abortion, probably some mods, so they probably didn't much mind.

MIND WHAT?

All I am saying is watch where you say that kind of stuff

*Sigh* tough guy talk again eh Mick?

I'll ask you one last time to keep the topic off of me and my family.

Mick, YOU brought your family into this I DIDN'T and you keep bringing your family into this inspite of my refusal to assuage your ideas I have.

I don't care what you think. That wasn't the point. The point was that you need to STAY ON TOPIC. This is the second thread that I've told you that the topic is not me, but rather what it says in the OP

Mick, for the love o mike, listen to yourself talk guy.

You really expect me to "do as I'm told" by you, in the same voice you tell me you don't care what I think? I think, I speak for everyone when I say the first thoughts anyone of us would have readng that "Then why should I care what you think?"

You might just get your blocked knocked off.

All right, that is the fifth time you have made innuendos designed to intimidate me with the threat of physical violence. Now I have been patient with you and have agreed to bow out of this one before it gets any further out of hand.

As you can see by the motion blur in this quick webcam snapshot, how "shaken" I am by your threats.



So, Ill just pass on this thread ok, you win mick, you are alive today because someone had to sacrifice their life so that yours would come into existence. You seem to be sublimating your guilt for anger and then transferring it on to me. I for one, don't see it that way however and if you are dealing with something like that, you are being very unfair to yourself for the very flaws given by many responders to your OP have so correctly illustrated.

For what it's worth, I see in your sig, thanking the maker of your avatar, that we have a mutual friend and one I kinda think would have some words of advice for you. She is great council and a sharp cookie who tells me you're a great guy.

So I am just going to over look that last one, and I ain't one to cry to Mods when things go bad,, Ill just leave this one pass. Hope you're in better spirits next time we cross paths on these boards

Take care



[edit on 17-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi


I realized after you showed me a picture of yourself with a shirt off that arguing with you is pointless.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

I see your point, I truly do. At the same time, I also feel that there doesn't seem much difference to me. If you have an abortion, you have denied a life. If you wear a condom, you have denied a life. If you take the morning-after pill, you have denied a life.

What do you think about the morning-after pill?

[edit on 1/17/2009 by Irish M1ck]

I think you are arguing just to argue here. Strictly biological, a sperm nor egg is a human, but they are literary the genetic lock and key to start life. For the first few days and up to a week a zygote will start cell division but it is not a fetus until after those first few days. It is everything, the placenta, umbilical cord, amniotic sac and embryo. After those first few days the embryo is implanted in the endometrium, and at this point the development of a fetus starts as it is now connected to the mother and starts its growth into a human being.

As I said I’m not totally black and white with this issue so I see the morning after pill as a lesser of two evils. As you can see I’m not looking at this from a religious aspect but as a moral aspect of our society.

How do you feel about late stage abortions, or an abortion just prior to natural birth?

reply to post by Xtrozero


To save the mother's life, I think it is fine, but for any other reason they had plenty of months before that to make the decision.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

To save the mother's life, I think it is fine, but for any other reason they had plenty of months before that to make the decision.

My next question is obvious, so when does a fetus gain that protected state? That is the problem I have for I can’t say at what point is it ok to kill it and at what point it has the right to live.

My other problem is when a society starts to pick abortion over many other choices all because of economics. It is better for a state to offer free abortions than it is to provide services and welfare. The situation of the woman who has one abortion early in life to give herself a better chance at a good future sounds so good and almost noble, but it is far from the norm as to what the reason for abortions have evolved into since 1973.
This erosion of our social morals will continue too into areas where you, I and most others do not want to go.

The biggest question of all to me in the abortion argument, if you were aborted by your mother would you be ok with it? I know that people say, "well i'd never be able to question it because i never would have existed."

That's not a real answer to me.

What if you hadn't been born? What about the children you have now? They would have never existed either. Would you be ok with that?

I've never held a stance on abortion. I understand both arguments for and against it. I'm just posing the question is all.

The abortion of one is the abortion of many in way. It eliminates an entire chain of people that would have existed.

Originally posted by David9176
The biggest question of all to me in the abortion argument, if you were aborted by your mother would you be ok with it? I know that people say, "well i'd never be able to question it because i never would have existed."

That's not a real answer to me.

It is a legitimate response. If I had been aborted, how on earth would I bear any feelings in the matter? What use is it for me to imagine what I might have felt like knowing I'd been aborted? And what are you supposing? That the fetus, regardless of stage, has a soul that might possibly be looking down at its lifeless form and thereafter contemplating what a pitiful, pitiful fate it met? It's a totally unreasonable question--there can be no real answer.

What if you hadn't been born? What about the children you have now? They would have never existed either. Would you be ok with that?

It eliminates an entire chain of people that would have existed.

So what if any of us hadn't been born? A life wouldn't have existed, you're correct. But as such, there would be no grievance for that life and all dependent lives, so any allusion to that is irrelevant. What if the mother of Pol Pot had aborted him while pregnant? I could use that as an argument for everyone to seek abortions--it would be tantamount to your argument that the possibility of goodness or benefit to the world should prevent abortions. It's a silly argument that is recycled far too often.