The Abortion Paradox

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Fantastic observation! Star for you! I can't tell you how much I agree. My mother had an abortion when she was very young, 15, and had me ten years later. Had she kept the first baby, my brother and I wouldn't be alive right now because she wouldn't have been at the night club on the marine base when she met my father. She'd have had a four year old child at the time instead. In this case: in exchange for one life, two were gained.

How does your aborted sibling feel about it?

My aborted sibling doesn't know about it. Their soul was reborn somewhere else, most likely in a better situation. Hopefully not with a 15-year-old mother. This is what I believe. And it's probably why I don't have a problem with abortion, because I believe that the soul gets reborn somewhere else.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
My aborted sibling doesn't know about it. Their soul was reborn somewhere else, most likely in a better situation. Hopefully not with a 15-year-old mother. This is what I believe. And it's probably why I don't have a problem with abortion, because I believe that the soul gets reborn somewhere else.

How do you know your sibling doesn't know about it? How do you know s/he wasn't born in worse conditions? Do you advocate suicide to be reborn somewhere else when situations are not good so that a person can be reborn somewhere else? How do you know s/he did not feel the pain of death? How do you know God (or whatever master of the universe you may believe in) would not have put all of your now aborted sibling, you, your brother and your father into the same household because God (or whatever master of the universe you may believe in) is more than capable of doing things like this? How do you know that your aborted sibling didn't long to know you and your bother, and/or mother and has been denied? You're glad your sibling was aborted so that you may live with your family? Perhaps there was a better fit for you someplace else or perhaps your aborted sibling would have been more beneficial to the family...or does it not get any better than you?



[edit on 15-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


How do you know that my sibling wasn't put in better circumstances? How do you know that they felt or even remember their death? How do you know that God(or whatever master of the universe you believe in) has an active hand in any of it?

The answer to all of those questions lie within one's own faith. Even if my sibling did feel the pain of their own death, that pain ended when their soul left that body. The soul was reborn.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
How do you know that my sibling wasn't put in better circumstances?

I don't have any proof that your sibling was reborn. I do have proof by definition of abortion that your sibling is dead.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
How do you know that they felt or even remember their death?

Nerves are a part of the body that receive stimuli and carry messages to the brain such as pain. Biological organisms with nerves feels pain, humans included. Regarding rememberance, it's still unknown but cannot be discounted just by posing an opposing question.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
How do you know that God(or whatever master of the universe you believe in) has an active hand in any of it?

I've met his adversary first, and subsequently have come to know Him.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
The answer to all of those questions lie within one's own faith. Even if my sibling did feel the pain of their own death, that pain ended when their soul left that body. The soul was reborn.

Again, the same questions I'd posed remained. I answered yours, care to answer mine?


[edit on 15-1-2009 by saint4God]

How do you know this?
I don't have any concrete proof of this for you. It is simply my belief, just like some have faith in God, I have faith that we are reborn.

How do you know s/he weren't born in worse conditions?
I never said that I knew, I said that was my hope.

How do you know s/he did not feel the pain of death?
They did feel the pain of their death, but that pain was ended when the soul left their body. The soul doesn't feel the pain, the soul has no nerves.

How do you know God (or whatever master of the universe you may believe in) would not have put both your now aborted sibling, you, your brother and your father into the same household because God (or whatever master of the universe you may believe in) is more than capable of doing things like this?
Because my mother would have had a four year old child by then and my father was a marine. They only had the chance to meet because she got lost trying to get off the base to get money to buy drinks in the night club. My father wouldn't have left the marines if it weren't for my mother and he would have gone through with his proposal to another girl he was dating on the base.

How do you know that your aborted sibling longed to know you and your bother and has been denied?
My aborted sibling doesn't know me or my brother exist because their soul was placed somewhere else long before either me or my brother existed.

Your glad your sibling was aborted so that you may live with your family?
This sounds like a loaded question. My sibling was aborted and because of that my brother and I now live. My sibling was reborn somewhere else. I can't say I'm "glad" or not because the soul is no longer that of my sibling but of someone else entirely who still gets to live their life.

Almost done, there's one more question at the end (can be split into three parts if you like). I appreciate your patience and willing to address them.


[edit on 15-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


Sorry, I didn't see it.

Perhaps there was a better fit for you someplace else or perhaps your aborted sibling would have been more beneficial to the family...or does it not get any better than you?
Perhaps there was, and perhaps they would have been. I never said something so egotistical as to assume that it doesn't "get any better" than me. But my brother and I would not exist, as we do today, had this sibling not been aborted.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


Nor would my sister or I. I am currently in school to be an Actuary and she is a spokesperson for vitamins. I don't know what my "sibling" would have done/been, but I know my mother and father wouldn't have met (which would be a shame because they truly have a great marriage).

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
I've heard many say that abortion is killing a baby, and therefore, a soul. The baby is a person from conception and must have a soul, so it is murder, etcetera, etcetera. However, I had one question I'd like to pose to you:

What about babies that would not have been born if abortion was not legal? What of women who have abortion, go on to finish college and meet the right guy, and then have children. I think we can all agree that if the woman had the kid, a sort of "Butterfly Effect" would have happened, and her life would have been completely different. I know women who have had abortions and they would not be where they are today if they hadn't.

Many say having an abortion is robbing a child of his/her life, but what about the kids who wouldn't exist if abortion wasn't legal? Isn't that robbing them of their lives?

So are you suggesting it is better to sacrifice a life for one’s career? Having a child makes things more difficult, but not impossible. What we have seen these past 35 years is abortions are mainly used as a tool for convenience. It also gives a quick and easy method to bypass one’s responsibility for their actions. How many women do you know that years later say that their abortion was the best decision that have ever made? The majority carry that decision as guilt and embarrassment their whole lives.

The bottom line is when does a life become sacred? It is life, and it is part of the life cycle anyway you look at it. Under law if a person kills a pregnant mother that person is charged with a double homicide. An unborn can own property by law in the event it is willed to that unborn child. So we see an unborn as a person unless the mother wants to kill it because it might make her life inconvenient, then it becomes a thing, or a piece of flesh.

How about mothers who use it as birth control and have many, or how about a state that offers it free over all other services for they see it is cheaper to kill the child and pay a onetime expense than it is to provide services over many years for that child. All this cheapens the value of life, and so cost and future earnings become more important than life itself in justifing that taking a life is the right thing to do.

Even if you do not believe in the whole soul thing, what value do you put on life? My mother is very old and is a burden, should I kill her because of that? I'm sure my future earnings would be better if she was out of the way...

reply to post by Xtrozero


You also missed the point. I am saying that abortions bring about the opportunity for new life. There are many who would not be alive today if it was not for abortion.

Abortion takes lives, but it also makes lives.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]

The thing is, none of us chose to be here, and quite frankly, sometimes i wish my parents would not have had me. I am not trying to sound emo, or dark or anything suicidal, but i've had to struggle my whole life to stay afloat, and my birth put a serious damper on my parents plans. Two years later and my father's small business would have taken off(he sold it to a single childless acquaintance who now is a multi-millionaire). At least my siblings might have had an easier time than we did if things had been different. Plus, growing up in the 80's and early 90's sucked big time. I don't resent my parents, or wish to die, or even feel a woe is me attitude. I just can face the honest truth about the impact of my birth.

I wonder how many pro life people complain about all the uneducated young single mothers that are sitting around popping out kids so they can get assistance. . Or how many complain about the out of control youth with parents who don't care. Or how many salivate at the senseless killing of innocent children in palestine, iraq, or any other country with mostly brown inhabitants. What about mothers with depleted uranium babies? Are you going to adopt one of those monstrosities? This is way too complicated of a subject to put down to simple black and white answers. Ever ask someone who is a rabid pro lifer what they would do if their daughter was raped by an escaped mental criminal brother or uncle? Then they will say"oh now you are making it personal" well guess what...it is always personal to someone.
Fortunately, as a man, i will never be faced with that tough decision, and therefore i feel that i have no right to dictate how someone else should handle that situation.

Have you ever watched a mother animal eat her unwanted litter. If you can't feed them then don't breed them.

reply to post by TasteTheMagick

Thanks for being candid with the responses. It seems there are a lot of assumptions being made about what happens during an abortion as well as the killing being taken very lightly and nonchalant. I'm grateful I'll never be on either end of that knife and hope that all the positive wishful thinkings about this tragedy are correct.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


No problem. However, I don't think there are many assumptions being made. None of us can know the real concrete answers to some of the questions and it is left up to personal belief. What I do absolutely KNOW is that I would not be alive as I am today had the abortion not occurred.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
The bottom line is when does a life become sacred? It is life, and it is part of the life cycle anyway you look at it. Under law if a person kills a pregnant mother that person is charged with a double homicide. An unborn can own property by law in the event it is willed to that unborn child. So we see an unborn as a person unless the mother wants to kill it because it might make her life inconvenient, then it becomes a thing, or a piece of flesh.

This is an interesting part of the law I did not know about. So then, the unborn child also has the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
What I do absolutely KNOW is that I would not be alive as I am today had the abortion not occurred.

There's no way of knowing that either. If one believes in God or fate or any other controller of the universe, then circumstances could certainly be aligned to include you as well...maybe even in the situation you're currently in but plus one more brother or sister.

reply to post by Razimus

The aborted babies grow up in the spirit world, their physical life was taken from them, they can have a spirit life but it's just not the same, they can't have a family there the same way, I've heard, this un-justice will be resolved when the 1,000 year reign of Christ comes, all aborted babies will be able to grow up physically un-aborted this time, there will be no abortion during the reign of Christ.

Have you ever read frank perretti's books, one is about exactly what you wrote, brings tears to my eyes just typing this. Anyone who would murder there own offspring, well I suppose all sins are forgivable, but it's just the most horrible act that a supposed civilized human can do, that is my opinion. As for the Buttefly Effect well, any decision can cause a different outcome, in so many ways.

reply to post by saint4God


There is a way of knowing that. I do believe in fate, but maybe in a different way that you do, if you do. To believe in fate the way that I do, it means that everything that has already occurred has happened for a reason: including my mother's abortion.

The circumstances that came about because of her decision allowed for me and my brother to come into life in the situation that we are now.

Abortion takes lives, but it also makes lives.

reply to post by Irish M1ck


Then so does war and murder and disease and famine, according to your logic.

reply to post by saint4God


You don't believe in genetics? How can you possibly believe that she or I would be alive? Things would have worked out differently. Even if my parents still met, the odds that I would have been born are 0. The chance that the same sperm would hit the same egg on the same night, and the same genes would be passed down are incredible.

...If you believe in God, then you have to believe that genetics are a fingerprint of who we are, "our soul". If that is the case, then it has to be fate that we are born when we are, and the ones who aren't... well, aren't.

Our DNA ("souls") and our experiences make up who we are, if you change any of those factors, then we are not the same person.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]