Non-Christians for Creationism

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Remember, the Bible is not written or founded on any original texts, but just very faulty copies.

Say, rather, that there are no original texts. The Bible is a carefully-selected 'anthology of anthologies', a collection of Christian texts that that happened to exist in various parallel forms at particular times in history. If the selection had been done at other times than those particular ones, the Bible would have been different.

If we keep visible this: "elephant in the room" in our spiritual eyesight, we will not be duped, or trapped.

I have no idea at all what you mean by this. Care to explain?

Edit to add (because I couldn't resist):

Originally posted by Kailassa
I see this world as god's library. We are each part of him, each a tentacle of that spaghetti monster I've read about; each of our lives one of his books.

Reply to Kailassa by MatrixProphet
When will we stop relating God to our feeble reasoning? Totally agree with you.

A fig for logical consistency, eh? Well done!

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Telling kids "Your life is a meaningless coincidence and you come from nothing" is questionable though.

Look at where it has brought us.

More people believe in god than don't.
Therefore you could just as easily blame belief for "where it has brought us".

The fact is, belief comes from deep inside. Not everyone is going to have belief, no matter what is taught or encouraged. My children have been brought up with belief; some of them believe, some don't. The ones who don't are still having to find a way to live in this world of "meaningless coincidences".

This can be done by finding meaning in the temporary, valuing everything for what it is, without needing an eternal context. One does not need to believe in the hereafter to want to live a good life, help others and make this world a better place. In fact many Christians at the moment, including some I'm related to, are rooting for WWIII, hoping that widespread death and destruction will bring about the return of their Lord.

Earth would be safer at the moment if nobody believed dropping nukes would bring about their private paradise.

No I wouldnt. But it shouldnt be forbidden to discuss metaphysical aspects either.

Agreed 100%.

I attended five different government schools, and at none of them was such discussion forbidden. Most had it as part of the curriculum, (weekly religious instruction classes with voluntary attendance,) and secondary art teachers college had philosophy as a mandatory subject. Our philosophy teacher was open minded and interested in discussing anything we brought up.

Purely linear education is boring. Much better to be able to explore the ramifications of what you are taught, and how it relates to belief systems.

On a side-note: Creationism/Intelligent-Design does not necessarily require a religious God-concept. As I said in the OP, it is a lie of our times that Christians have an "exclusive contract" on ID.

Creationism/Intelligent-Design requires an creator/designer. A rose by any other name doth smell as sweet. It's still an intelligent, creative being/beings.

Its only your prejudice that thats what we're proposing. Not all of us are backwater hicks who wish to brand Darwin as Satan himself.

Hey, you might have noticed I believe in a type of creation myself, so I'm certainly not assuming anything about what you are proposing.
In fact, being familiar with your posts, I was pretty sure it was not. I was just making the point that the stifling of education is the only concern I have about anyone's creationist beliefs.

You must certainly be aware that Creationism, in America, is a political movement which has repeatedly attempted to either prevent the teaching of evolution, or demand equal time in science class for the teaching of creationism, (which in practice greatly decreases the time available to teach real science, and can turn students into lazy thinkers,) and Intelligent Design is the new sheep's clothing for the same old wolf.

It's not surprising if, in publicly adopting one of those labels, you are asked whether or not you share those ambitions.

Originally posted by Skyfloating


Or, we've staged some incarnational game for ourselves in which we forget our origins in order to be able to concentrate on the gameboard.

I have been follwoing this thread with much interest and respect and am, frankly, dautned to jump in, but am also compelled to acknowledge that my personal lot is profoundly and fundamentally thrown-in with the above comment.

Very sleepy now... will check back in tomorrow to elaborate if it seems pertinent to the ongoing discusiion... g'night all.

reply to post by Astyanax


Just to comment on the "God is perfect" idea:

The concept of perfection automatically implies its counterpart: Imperfection.

Perfection includes the idea of our free will to make things imperfect.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Would you say that he has unresolved issues towards God? Hehehe.

Psychologically speaking much of the atheist movement is nothing more than a reaction to extreme fundamentalism.

The whole thing started at the Inquisition and the burning of "Heretics". Of course this is going to create a movement which puts emphasis on "anti-superstition".

Whats often missed (imo) is the appreciation of more moderate forces.
Not everyone who is interested in the supernatural aspects of life is a fire-and-brimstone preacher or a member of the Inquisition.

As so often in life, a counter-movement becomes just as extreme as the movement it was countering.

Originally posted by Astyanax
If you're serious about thinking your own thoughts and devising your own ideas in metaphysics and theology, at least study the work of those that have gone before you and learn what the implications and ramifications of your intended 'faith choices' really are. You'll find that religious doctrine is not some buffet from which you can just pick what you like and leave the rest, nor is it a Lego set of components that will allow you to assemble a belief system that suits you. What a consumerist approach to religion!

I don't have a consumerist approach to religion.
On the contrary, I dismiss all religion completely.

You have no idea how much I've studied the bible and the "great thinkers" of metaphysics and theology.

However no amount of reading about honey equates to tasting it, and many of these great thinkers appear to me to have not tasted the honey at all.

When I was five years old the minister at our local church taught in his sermon that god only speaks to ministers, not to lay people, and that was why we had to come to church and listen to the ministers.

I was a lonely, abused and isolated child, and god was my friend, talking to me each day and bringing me joy, hope and strength. So I insisted on speaking to the minister after the service, so I could explain he was wrong.

This stern and self-righteous man was mightily annoyed to have a little girl trying to teach him, but I stood my ground, telling him that god walked with me through the forest every day, playing games with me, and helping me make up songs and poems, on my solitary 5 mile walks to and from school.

The minister's face got redder and redder, and he bent over, shouting into mine: "God would never talk to an ignorant child like you! If you here someone talking to you like that you had better run like hell, because it's the Devil, and He's coming to carry you off to eternal damnation."

I felt very sorry for the poor man, because he was spending his life trying to teach people about god, and he didn't even know him.

Being a precocious child, in the next few years I read the bible over and over to learn more about my friend. By 11 I was reading the Koran, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the way of the Tao, and works by every commentator on every religion I could find.

At 14 I coaxed the minister into giving me a church key so I could teach Sunday School in our little town, studying more and learning to play the organ for the childrens' hymns. Although it was a rough red-neck town, all the children of all religions came.

In my early 20s I had an NDE, for which I have always been grateful, saw heaven for myself, and met god in a different and wonderful way.

There are no barriers to heaven; no angels with flaming swords to keep the "unsaved" out. God has no religion. Like any good parent, his primary concern is that we be good to each other and take care of this world we have been given.

The only hell is the shame and fear that can keep one's soul trying to escape God, afraid of being close to one who knows everything you have ever thought and done and wanted to do.

Jesus understood these tormented souls, which is why he taught about the good shepherd, and preached love and forgiveness.

Sai Ram, my friends. (I worship the god within you.)

reply to post by Kailassa

There just may be a perfect reason for having an imperfect world.

this is along the lines of what I'm thinking -

imperfection may be a part of perfection - sort of a forest for the trees situation

reply to post by Kailassa

However no amount of reading about honey equates to tasting it, and many of these great thinkers appear to me to have not tasted the honey at all.

this is really nice - and I think that sums up why this is such an issue for so many

there's no way to deny what you feel for yourself - but also - no true way to explain it

and our own experience is so present with us that it makes it impossible to understand what it would be like without it

I don't think it even makes a difference what we may have believed either way before we believe what we believe in the present - the memory of that becomes something intangible and unreal in the presence of what we actually know and feel now

the thing is - this works in every direction - and on every level - for the faithful, agnostic and the atheist

if we're a believer (regardless of the specifics of our belief) the beliefs of others seem - at the very least - incorrect

...but I stood my ground, telling him that god walked with me through the forest every day, playing games with me, and helping me make up songs and poems, on my solitary 5 mile walks to and from school...

this is something I can relate to - a very similar experience to mine

...The minister's face got redder and redder, and he bent over, shouting into mine: "God would never talk to an ignorant child like you! If you here someone talking to you like that you had better run like hell, because it's the Devil, and He's coming to carry you off to eternal damnation..."

how could you feel anything other than pity (if you're capable of moving past anger) for someone like this? No matter however else one might look at this man - all I can see is how lonely and afraid he must have been

but I like hearing about strong little girls who aren't afraid to say what they mean to say

reply to post by Astyanax

An imperfect God would explain a lot.

yes - it would explain everything

...Even so, Gnosticism can be fascinating. If you're interested, you'll find more information at the Gnosis Web site...

check out my favorite sites :-)

still - I don't follow through in my reading of Gnosticism because - well, it's unsettling

maybe because it's always felt familiar - but, there are other reasons

Gnostics are wanderers in a wicked and doomed world...

it's like the wild west of spirituality - I feel like I should carry a gun

reply to post by Astyanax

If the selection had been done at other times than those particular ones, the Bible would have been different.

Exactly! But the irony is; it evolved just the way it was supposed to. If we take the self-righteous aspects away (which were established by the Church) from the Bible, it has a meaning that goes way beyond doctrine and controlling dogma.

It is like attempting to understand God and why he seems so imperfect. It is certainly what HE seems to want us to think. Why?

If we keep visible this: "elephant in the room" in our spiritual eyesight, we will not be duped, or trapped.

I have no idea at all what you mean by this. Care to explain?

The obvious: the Bible is used as a tool to divide and not to unite. But the sanctimonious religious groups and individuals, use this tool as was expected, to control and manipulate the masses, and it's worked...up until now.

It is a symbolic elephant that is obviously very alive in the building, that is causing uproar, and yet no-one can see him! But many like myself are starting to.

If we keep in our minds the dysfunction of the Bible we will remain awake and will look for its gems that most cannot, or will not find. It is the whole purpose of it!

It would separate those who comply, from the searchers. Make sense?

You last attempt at humor.... But I liked kailassa's illustration, thank you very much!!

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I starred you because of your last comment! Very true!

still - I don't follow through in my reading of Gnosticism because - well, it's unsettling

maybe because it's always felt familiar - but, there are other reasons

Gnostics are wanderers in a wicked and doomed world...

it's like the wild west of spirituality - I feel like I should carry a gun

I have studied a lot on the Gnostics and some of my thinking goes along with theirs. I DO feel that there is special knowledge that only some are privy to. But they go into typical religious avenues that Christianity (Paul) actually ran with!

Ie: an evil God that runs this world, whereas I used to believe that, now I think he plays an important illusion in the role of duality. I have come to believe that all the Gods are on the same team. That duality is just an illusion that fulfills an important aspect of the Game.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Psychologically speaking much of the atheist movement is nothing more than a reaction to extreme fundamentalism.

As so often in life, a counter-movement becomes just as extreme as the movement it was countering.

Again, we totally agree. IMO real spirituality is very freeing. It is open to much interpretation which gives us more room to breath and to learn.

Some people say "God is within me!" I say; "The essence of God is within me, but God is still a separate entity, if I choose to address it. Or, "I can access his spirit or tap into his spiritual flow that is outside of me." I don't think either group us has a monopoly on how it all works, and does it even matter? That is the beauty!

Atheists are not free! Neither are the religious IMO. If we look at both groups; they are both boxed in by perfectionism. 2+2 must always equal 4. But spiritually it may not. That creates too much uncertainty and anxiety for most. So they all need to set limits! If we can keep knowledge and experience boxed in, WE feel WE are right.

reply to post by MatrixProphet

I have studied a lot on the Gnostics and some of my thinking goes along with theirs. I DO feel that there is special knowledge that only some are privy to.

But they go into typical religious avenues that Christianity (Paul) actually ran with! Ie: an evil God that runs this world, whereas I used to believe that, now I think he plays an important illusion in the role of duality. I have come to believe that all the Gods are on the same team. That duality is just an illusion that fulfills an important aspect of the Game.

:-)

so much - so much to say...

my head is spinning - and I'm afraid I don't have the time to say as much as what I really want to say right now

I can hardly call myself educated - in most things, but certainly not in religion

however, out of the things I've read up on - there are two "established" religions/philosophies that have somehow managed to sink their teeth into my skin

Buddhism and Gnosticism

there are things that ring true in both of them that were true for me before I really knew anything about either of them

but - I don't find anything in Buddhism that troubles my mind the same way as does Gnosticism

and I suspect that says something - even if it only says something about me

in any case - since I don't have the time to write the paper I feel like writing right now - I have to say:

I think it's all tricks and irony - deception to prove a point

we want the truth? We can't handle the truth

:-)

I see you've started a thread - on Judas - which I'll check out later on

this is one of those "discoveries" that just made my head hurt - having been raised in the absence of religion - Christianity was for me something I visited like you would visit the zoo

the only time I ever went to church would be if I stayed over at a friends on Saturday night - and occasionally on Easter with relatives

I always suspected the Judas story was a ruse - even at the age of 12 - and that a magnificent point was being made in that story - and entirely missed

the whole thing is maybe just a riddle - and we've all been set up :-)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

However no amount of reading about honey equates to tasting it, and many of these great thinkers appear to me to have not tasted the honey at all.

this is really nice - and I think that sums up why this is such an issue for so many

It's also like hearing the Pope pontificate on the evils of sex not aimed at reproduction.

there's no way to deny what you feel for yourself - but also - no true way to explain it

A word has been used for that feeling: the Numinous.
- Which I take to mean the experience of life/reality as a miracle.

and our own experience is so present with us that it makes it impossible to understand what it would be like without it

I can't imagine facing the death of ones loved ones or oneself without this knowledge.
I've seen atheists coping with these things, and they have shown incredible courage.

I don't think it even makes a difference what we may have believed either way before we believe what we believe in the present - the memory of that becomes something intangible and unreal in the presence of what we actually know and feel now

Sometimes, living too much in the numinous can make it difficult to keep up ones responsibilities in the "real" world, as it becomes steadily less real.
I admire those who work steadily in the material world and take care of all their responsibilities.

the thing is - this works in every direction - and on every level - for the faithful, agnostic and the atheist

if we're a believer (regardless of the specifics of our belief) the beliefs of others seem - at the very least - incorrect

It was six men of Indostan, to learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant, (though all of them were blind),
That each by observation, might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant, and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side, at once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk, cried, "Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal, and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands, thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand, and felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like is mighty plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most; deny the fact who can?
This marvel of an Elephant is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun about the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail that fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right, and all were in the wrong!


So oft in theologic wars, the disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant not one of them has seen!

... god walked with me through the forest every day, playing games with me, ...

this is something I can relate to - a very similar experience to mine

It's also an accepted experience in India, where it's believed Krishna befriends lonely children and plays with them as god played with me.

...The minister's face got redder and redder, ..."

how could you feel anything other than pity (if you're capable of moving past anger) for someone like this? No matter however else one might look at this man - all I can see is how lonely and afraid he must have been

It was his terrible emptiness that I felt. And till then I'd thought it must be wonderful to be a minister, being special to god and being close to him all the time.

but I like hearing about strong little girls who aren't afraid to say what they mean to say

I was always more stubborn and stupid than strong.

reply to post by Kailassa

It's also like hearing the Pope pontificate on the evils of sex not aimed at reproduction.

don't get me started... :-)

A word has been used for that feeling: the Numinous. - Which I take to mean the experience of life/reality as a miracle

I've learned a new word today - and as it turns out - one that actually means something to me - thank you

So oft in theologic wars, the disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant not one of them has seen!

enough said

It's also an accepted experience in India, where it's believed Krishna befriends lonely children and plays with them as god played with me.

my childhood was neither as lonely or harsh as yours - so in that way I can't really know what it was like for you

I spent most of my childhood and young adulthood outside in the hills and fields and woods - and I have to say - I learned a lot out there - on my own

but - I have to add - I always had a very real sense that I wasn't at all alone

the places my mind went in the company of who knows what showed me things I had no business knowing on my own - if you understand what I'm saying

I have no explanation - and past that - I can barely even offer a description of what I mean

so - this is where it all gets tricky - if I can't explain things to my own self - trying to share them with others is going to be just that much more difficult

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
so - this is where it all gets tricky - if I can't explain things to my own self - trying to share them with others is going to be just that much more difficult

It takes courage to wear the unknowing and simply accept your experiences as they are, not trying to categorise or quantify them.

I grew up in the Australian forest, often hiding out in the mountains. I believed the trees cared about me and communicated with me. When I realised I'd been born to my family, not dropped off from a spacecraft, I adopted the mountain ash (huge straight and strong eucalypts in Australia, not related to the trees called mountain ash elsewhere,) as my parents.

Trees are Earth's way of making love to the sky.

At times I felt there were dryads around, the spirits of Aborigines. And they seemed to want me to die in the bush, to be a playmate for them forever.
I had to be careful when they were around.

So it would not surprise me what kind of spirit beings may have been in the woods with you, wise, kind, playful or mischievous.
- Or companions from a more heavenly realm.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I believe the truth lies in all religions and philosophies. The difference is: we need to put on the right reading glasses!

Some information is meant to instruct and some is meant to deceive. It means gaining the wisdom to know the difference.

We DO have the capability of seeing the difference. We just need the desire, and temporary teachers. I asked for teachers to be put into my life and received knowledge when I needed it.

I am now a spiritual teacher also, but not a cult leader. It is a: take what you want and leave the rest - program. Which is as it should be,

I am constantly told; "You are saying exactly what the Bughwan (sp? hehe) says! You are naturally saying what Eckankars teach! Buddhism teaches some of the very things you say!" Yet, I don't ascribe to any. Nor do I do any rituals. Aspects of religion ring true, while most does not, to me!

This is the point! There is a universal language that is being spoken, and it is spreading! But if we stay out of all religion IMO, we grasp knowledge quicker. Religion is a filter, a dysfunctional one.

reply to post by Kailassa

...I believed the trees cared about me and communicated with me. When I realised I'd been born to my family, not dropped off from a spacecraft, I adopted the mountain ash (huge straight and strong eucalypts in Australia, not related to the trees called mountain ash elsewhere,) as my parents. Trees are Earth's way of making love to the sky. At times I felt there were dryads around, the spirits of Aborigines. And they seemed to want me to die in the bush, to be a playmate for them forever. I had to be careful when they were around. So it would not surprise me what kind of spirit beings may have been in the woods with you, wise, kind, playful or mischievous. - Or companions from a more heavenly realm.

all this was worth repeating - just nice :-)

also worth further discussion

I used to think of myself as a foundling child

and again - not because I lived in unhappy circumstances - just a very strong feeling I had

I never did understand it

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

Buddha

but - this requires a certain amount of self awareness - and brutal honesty

for me it's easier to believe nothing - it's harder to believe something

I have to trust my own common sense - but also my own suspicions

this is where the trouble starts....

Skyfloating - I don't know if this is where you meant for this conversation to go

but as far as Non-Christians for Creationism goes - it looks like you have plenty of evidence that they exist

even if there are a thousand suspicions and no one is clear on a single one of them

:-)