The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Hi Titen-Sxull

"The answers I have come to, as I have shown throughout this thread in multiple posts, is based on my fair share of research. I have shown logically that the Bible cannot be the perfect word of a perfect God, it may very well be divinely inspired but it is still imperfect, flawed, and self-contradictory in numerous ways. I decided, after weighing Christianity with an open and logical mind"

Have you considered that it's maybe not possible with human materialistic logic to figure out spiritual things, and questions of faith and belief ? Do you believe in rational thought, in humans ? Computer's are based on logic, but can they think, outside their programming? Maybe that's what the NWO Big Brother (supposed Satan worshippers) is trying to do with us through his rationalism and logic school, program us up, sit back and relax, another potential revolutionary, silenced within the confines of the brain-wash.

I looked at Christianity with a logical mind I wouldn't want anything to do with it, and I don't. I prefer to disassociate myself from all of the centuries of false-teachings, wolves in sheep's clothing and spreaders of deceptions, setting up counterfeit and fake gospels, denying people the truth, instruments of Satan. I prefer to consider myself a Bible believer and follower of Jesus Christ, not of one of the many denominations jam-packed with the interpretations of Guru's and doctrines of men. Don't just dismiss something because of the people who say they are Christians, the Bible says you can judge a tree by its fruit, eg do those Christians live by what they preach, live in faith, trust for everything on God, or are they following some kind of prosperity gospel, uncovering the magic get-rich-quick-prayer formula?

"Any book can CLAIM to be divinely written, perfect, or the Word of God, but these claims require a skeptical mind to approach them, ignorantly buying into the first answer/religion that comes along (or that you are indoctrinated into from birth) cannot be a good thing. "

That's true any book can claim, and a lot of false prophets have come and gone over time making predictions that didn't come true. The Bible however is the only one that was delivered by God over 1500 years through 40 different people. From start to finish it references Jesus coherently throughout all scripture. There is no other book like it that describes the reality of the human heart, it reveals the darkest secrets of the fallen human nature, and the glorious riches of Gods grace, in that when we were still enemies he sent his only beloved begotten Son to die for us. I don't know about your ''indoctrination'', sounds like you had some rather zealous people around you - they mean well, but it's not the best way to open a person's heart. It's a bit like the childhood story of the bet between the Sun & the Wind to see who's strongest. They decide to settle the bet in targeting a guy walking down the street with a long coat on. The zealous wind thinks he can pull it off with his strong blows, but the guy, just zips up his coat more. The sun shines brightly, and it becomes so hot the guy removes his own coat. A lesson for all zealous religious fanatics, no-one wants your beliefs shoved down their throat.

Just consider these words of Jesus:

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Consider the poor in spirit, do you understand that ?

" I tried to be a Christian but after crying out to God to save me and show Himself to me for years I came up with a big nothing. Slowly the logic, the doubt, .. built up, and the "truth" I was led to believe became fallible and my search for the real truth began."

If at first you don't succeed try and try again. I heard of many people God showed himself to and showed the way, ask for the gift of faith to the real. God

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by TasteTheMagick

 

The Bible is the work of men as is the Torah and the Qu'ran. All three religions are rubbish! More people have been killed in the name of someone else's dog... I mean 'god' due to blind faith, hatred, fear, elitism, xenophobia and fanaticism than anything else. All three books are equally as poisonous!

History has passed it's own unbiased judgment!

Religion = Failure!

IRM

The violence that has happened in the name of religion has got nothing to do with said religion. Mankind is to blame for the violence. we kill over football. should we ban sports? we kill over the neighbours wife? are we not to be interested in the oppposite sex? we kill over jumping a queue. are we not to queue?

the judgement you speak of IS biased. you blame religion for violence over the years, yet it is our own pride, ego & greed that has caused it. until humanity recoqnises that, it always gonna be someone or something else's fault. eh?

wayne

Religion has kept the masses from turning savage. Oh God, if peoples had no laws to govern them, there would be mass murders, raping, pillaging and the like all around us. It's not common sense to be law abiding. We want to be free and act on our impulses. Our impulses get people killed, make us get STD's and many more. The our impluses are treacherous, how do you keep a handle on them?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
This thread is primarily directed at Christians, specifically the ones who believe the Bible is the actual “Word of God” but I welcome the opinions of anyone else who cares to join in…

I’ve been involved in many religious debates, some more heated than others, but no Christian has yet successfully defended from the following:

If God is good, righteous, and holy than why does he smite the first-born Egyptians. Many Christians believe that children were among those Egyptian’s killed. What justification can there be for this? There is no justification, in my mind, for God to kill innocent Egyptian civilians as opposed to, say, Pharaoh himself. It was Pharaoh’s hard heart, if I’m not mistaken, that kept the Hebrews enslaved. A good God would not slaughter children.

There are some who believe the Great Flood actually took place the way the Bible says, surely some innocent children must have drown unless all the sinners were sterile.

In Job, once again, God is killing children (or allowing them to be killed), seemingly just to settle a bet with Satan…In fact Job 42:11 says,
"11Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold."
If the Bible is the word of God than God is not as All-Loving as we’ve been led to believe. Here the Bible itself is saying God is capable of EVIL and these terrible things are brought upon Job, a righteous man.

Many times the Israelites would lay siege to a city, kill ALL the men and take the women and children as slaves.

Certainly you can not, with a clear conscious, and a mind free of Cognitive Dissonance, believe in a God who kills, or condones the killing of, innocent people and yet is equated with Love and Righteousness and Mercy.

The Bible contradicts itself a hundred different ways, God is merciful one minute, and condemning human beings to eternal torment the next. Clearly, then, the Bible is not the work of God but of MAN, a true loving God would not do these things.

I welcome any and all opinions

All quotes are from KJV Bible:

Proverb:14:12: There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

What seems right/just to us isn't always so.

Innocent people? It may seem so to an unbeliever, but if you're a believer these people are far from innocent.

De:21:9: So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.

Are you saying children are without sin? Innocent? Do you have to teach a child to lie or steal or to hide something? I'm not saying I agree with killing children, but who am I to question GOD.

Isa:45:9: Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

I'd like you to show me the phrase "All Loving" in the bible...true believers know the bible isn't all bubblegum and lollipops....

Eph:5:6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Ro:12:19: Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

God is not merciful one minute and condemning humans to torture the next...you have free will, exercise it. But whatever choice you make, you'll have to deal with the consequences (same as robbing a bank).

Read This:
Ac:16:31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Do you believe it? If not you've made a freewill choice to deny it. You'll have to deal with the consequences.

Originally posted by lostinspace
Religion has kept the masses from turning savage.

I think thats hilarious.

Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by lostinspace
Religion has kept the masses from turning savage.

I think thats hilarious.

Actually, it's your implied response that is. The Laws in which the western, at one point, free world, are based on the laws within Christianity.

If mankind didn't fight over religion all the times it has, we would have simply fought over something else instead.

Let's take it from now. Do you really think all the religions, who really speak, and teach respect & peace, were to be done away with, that the world would be a better place? THAT would be hilarious.

It is not religion that tells us to fight these wars. It is humans who pervert the mesage, use semanitcs, and confuse many people, stirring up racial & political anger, and cleverly tieing all that within Religion, a concept folks naturally hold dear.

It's a clever ploy for greedy, evil people. Start be getting people angry over things not to do with religion. Then, the one thing that exists to give them pleasure, a sense of belonging, they use the non-religious ideals to make that seem under threat. So our anger is intensely multiplied, and we are puppets for these scum.

i'm a white muslim convert (though not a practicing one). It amazes me exactly what the heck race & politics has to do with religion. Idiots have amalgamated all the worlds problems into religion, that folks automatically assume it must be said religions faullt. Any religion.

No my friend, mankinds greed, ego, and ambition against fellow man are what the problem is.

Take care
Wayne

reply to post by reiki


ummmmm, actually, Yahweh was the best instructor of pride, jealousy and greed and showed man how to use these attributes to take land right out from peoples noses, and kill the people while they are at it.

Yahweh taught man how to get what they want. Its still going on today, that little story about GOD PROMISING THEM LAND is STILL causing wars today.

Sure, there are violent crimes that have nothing to do with a 'god' but the lord Yahweh came and gave men permission to stamp 'gods' approval on horrid actions.

reply to post by lostinspace


The first laws of 'no killing' ect....existed before 'god' came and gave the law. Well unless we say that Egyptians god or Sumerians god gave the first laws....because there was laws before the time of Moses' so claimed 10 commandments.

Humans sell themselves short all the time in thinking we couldnt be moral without religion and the laws from god.

The true law of the true infinate one is stamped on your spirit, your soul, its a feeling of morality that no one needs to tell you....something is wrong or unjust. We have feelings of regret and guilt for a reasons, its a part of our makeup.

I have met PLENTY of non religions folk that have better morals then most religious people.

We can observe the ancients cared for their people, they buried them with care and spent much time preparing their bodies and places of burial. Im sure there were people that acted impulsively, and mabey even killed a loved one out of a impulsive behavior....but to say that they didnt calm down, then have regrets, because they missed this person or felt bad now that they didnt have the right to take their life.....would be saying we are robots without feelings and we have to have god tell us when to feel bad or regret something or feel guilt.

Just adding thoughts
LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by reiki

 

ummmmm, actually, Yahweh was the best instructor of pride, jealousy and greed and showed man how to use these attributes to take land right out from peoples noses, and kill the people while they are at it.

Yahweh taught man how to get what they want. Its still going on today, that little story about GOD PROMISING THEM LAND is STILL causing wars today.

Sure, there are violent crimes that have nothing to do with a 'god' but the lord Yahweh came and gave men permission to stamp 'gods' approval on horrid actions.

No. What you are alluding to is individual peoples expereinces of what they are interpreting as God's will. This is largely what scriptures are.

Pride, jealously & greed were there long before any person decided to write a book about the term Yahweh. We can't blame anyone except ourselves for our actions.

You can blame UK governement for having no courage, and later, the UN, for creating the promised land issue. Not God.

take care
Wayne

[edit on 1-3-2009 by reiki]

The moment a religion claimed that God had a special people and a special land.....is the moment violence and religion began to sow a bloody quilt.

This is not the Infinite creators fault, it is mans fault for believing the Supreme One would be so savage and hopeless.

The moment man started believing that God needed blood for a sin is another moment in time of man following ways of death.... not life.

Man believes things without using intuition. People say....WHO ARE WE TO QUESTION GOD.

YOUR NOT QUESTIONING GOD, you are questioning the men who say God instructed them to do things. To think we arent supposed to use our intuition in such a matter is accepting blindly mans word about God.

The ONE does not use death, separation or fear to have us seek Thee. These are ploys of man that thought they had wisdom.....they did have knowledge, about things that can give power to man, but they greatly lacked wisdom.

Good lord, what would the masses do if we had no books to tell us about God. Would they still feel God or know God?? Where would they look for God???

They would be forced to look in the original blue print that God intended for them to look....mother nature and within their own spirit. Gods true template is not in a material man made item. Its in something that rust nor moth can destroy.

reply to post by reiki


Which is why I refuse to claim Yahweh as God. Yahweh is not of a divine nature. Yahweh is of a primal nature. The masses are deceived and are still shedding blood for a special land.

reply to post by reiki


I do agree, jealousy, pride and ego were long there before Yahweh....but, to have a book that says...God commanded such things didnt help the matter any.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by reiki

 

I do agree, jealousy, pride and ego were long there before Yahweh....but, to have a book that says...God commanded such things didnt help the matter any.

We're on the same page here bro, for sure.

reply to post by LeoVirgo



star for this post, spot on!

take care
Wayne

reply to post by reiki


I am a miss...*smiles*

My name is a little misleading in my gender, I have been referred to as bro, brother, dude and sir many more times then a female gender.

Its ok....but just for future references....

So anyways....we agree that a god would not use primal ways to reach the people? Is that safe to say?

Which doesnt mean there isnt great truths in the Bible, even the OT....but I greatly have issues with accepting a God that needs blood shed, a special land and special people to reach the masses.

I believe somewhere in Isiah it says....and Yahweh was given his inheritance, by El, which was Israel. Isnt this saying right here that Yahweh was not the Most High? Curiouser and curiouser I think....

Just more thoughts
LV

Originally posted by Bombeni
Today, the only way Bible scoffers can explain away this astronomical probability is to discredit the prophecies in one way or another. Their only alternative is to accept that God is the author of the Scriptures. The Bible is a reliable book of genuine divine prophecy. You can trust it!

The evidence of divine prophecy is just a tiny portion of the proofs available to establish the divine origin of the Bible. Yet, they are more than sufficient to prove the inspiration of the Bible. There will always be men who scoff at the Bible. That, too, was prophesied.

All those "prophecies" could easily be false history. Someone could have added them in the year 1600 and dated it a thousand years before Jesus was born. Just saying.

I predict you will disagree with that being the case.

Also, Melissa, that tomorrowsworld garbage is dangerous stuff. I know, I have some of their magazines. Just because something makes sense in a neat little package doesnt make it truth. They had me for a bit too...

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by reiki

 

So anyways....we agree that a god would not use primal ways to reach the people? Is that safe to say?

If you are suggesting that the concept of God as is propagated for many centuries, is not whom the creative force actually is, i agree.

Though...

The power-brokers within religion needed to make humanity beleive that we were somehow God's favourites. And above all other species, We were the most God was interested in. This made the power-holders in religion even more important. This is wrong. And is down to mankinds greed & ego.

What has been lost is that, really, the creative force does not place us anymore important than any other species. Of course, our ego thinks otherwise.

Our consciousness, our mindset, has a direct impact on our reality. This has been shown in scientific expereiments, whereby scientists can 'direct' the movements of molecules by simply thinking it. We are also directly at odds with nature. And nature is one of the outward dynamic forces which the creative force has placed in motion. Therefore, nature is a manifestation of God. When we go against nature, and recieve something we don't like, it's to be expected then.

leading to my point, and answering your question..religion has become so far removed from the excellant concepts it first had, that God is now explained in some racial, political, and sociological mindset that centres around humans! how vain we are! Hehe.

So, other peoples mis-interpretations about events lead to things being at odds within religion, hence your valid question. My answer is, if a person is aware of what exactly God is, and realises there's a bigger picture than humanity, then sure, it'd be obvious God has no need, and does not wish to use ways to reach out to us.

At all times, our realizations, our chance to really awaken, are totally up to us. We can look at the wind blowing in the trees and see God if we wish. It is up to us. The kingdon of God is within us, and all around us. As someone once said, hehe.

....but I greatly have issues with accepting a God that needs blood shed, a special land and special people to reach the masses.

Yes, i agree. It doesn't make sense. And it's folks ambitious greed, or mis-interpreations in spiritual expereinces by the authors that create this issue for us, free-thinkers in an information age.

I have to say, for a few 100 years (until Constantine started ), Christianity, was totally different. A really expereintal spiritual path, worhsiping God every day, not just once a week. Indication of Gender equality, quite unheard of then also.

Take care
Wayne

reply to post by reiki


Im in agreement with everything you just said.

Well written as well....refreshing to hear likewise thoughts amongst and in between the same ol stalemated beliefs.

My best
LV

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


It's mans book and edited by men and what's in it was controlled by men. There is a lot of outdated laws, views and crap in there that shouldn't be taught to no one!

Having said that though. There are some amazing passages that (as one who believes in god) could only be inspired by god? And the passages in the New testament attributed to Jesus are so amazing that they could be compared to the ancient zen sayings or the best work of literature in my opinion.

In short there is no mother or father nature, or Mother Earth, etc...they are non-living matter created by the one true living God.