Israel feels hurt by global condemnation

Originally posted by ClintK

But Palestinians aren't dying because Isreal says they "deserve" it. The innocents are dying mostly because Hamas uses them as human sheilds. There doesn't seem to be any condemnation of that.

I don't think shooting round after round of white phosphorus into a town is being discrete about your targets.

Also, why did the IDF pack 100 people into a house and say they were helping evacuate civilians, and then go ahead and bomb the house the very next day????



[edit on 13-1-2009 by DerekJR321]

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Quite frankly I don't have a problem with war and I think a full scale "occupation" would be most desirable in this situation. Search every house, school, church, etc; collect as many weapons as possible; arrest or kill hamas leaders and any other terror suspects; then go home....

Yes, let's confiscate all their guns and weapons... oh, and then we could turn around and sell them back to the highest bidder! Brilliant!

Of course, we'd need a Middle Man to do all this hot swapping. Oh hey, let's use the CIA.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
also, they're talking about Phosphorous Bombs being used. This article is all over the place. I don't even know what kind of bomb the image is referring to, or if it was from the attack this week (white powder = black baby?) or in 2003 or in 2006.

Use judgement.

[edit on 1/13/2009 by ravenshadow13]

For your edification.
White Phosphorous (Incendiary Weapon)

Let me also comment.... I've read several threads on the topic at hand, including the flamebait thread of "The Holocaust Never happened."

Here's the skinny on my view...

The Holocaust doesn't matter. People advocate never forgetting something so horrible, that we are required to always remember it and to lend it grave importance.

It doesn't matter if 6m or 3m or 100b died. It just doesn't. Yesterday can't be changed in what we say today. We can't repair, make up for, or ease what has been done. We are powerless in the face of history.

The Holocaust doesn't matter. The dead don't care.

It's the living we should worry about. It's how the living rape the memories of the dead by using them like stallions to carry them to their goals, their wants, their greeds.

People died. 'Nuff said. What's done is done and can't be undone. Nobody gets a free pass.

Not nobody, not no-how.

The Hebrews don't get a free pass. Their past is theirs, it isn't the responsibility or burden of any other individual in the world, regardless of heritage or cultural affiliation.

We are all responsible for the choices we make today. The Israelis are responsible for what they do to the Palestinians. The Palestinians are responsible for what they do to the Israelis.

But I understand from what I've read, and I have seen no Refutation from any of the articles or comments posted by any of the Pro or Anti Israeli group, that The Israelis were depriving the Palestinians of basic human rights and consideration.

The Israelis don't get a free pass for their behavior. There is no Carte Blanche because however many dead people, who are dead, were dead because of people who are dead.

The Israelis are Guilty. The Palestinians, in this particular situation, are less so. Not guilt free... but the measure of difference between the actions and reactions speak for itself.

Originally posted by DerekJR321

Originally posted by ClintK

But Palestinians aren't dying because Isreal says they "deserve" it. The innocents are dying mostly because Hamas uses them as human sheilds. There doesn't seem to be any condemnation of that.

I don't think shooting round after round of white phosphorus into a town is being discrete about your targets.
(/quote]

Can you provide some evidence that they were just shooting randomly? I don't mean a biased new article I mean undisputable factual evidence?

Originally posted by DerekJR321
Also, why did the IDF pack 100 people into a house and say they were helping evacuate civilians, and then go ahead and bomb the house the very next day????

Because the people were gone.


[edit on 13-1-2009 by ClintK]

Originally posted by MilitieTempliSalmo
reply to post by ClintK

 

No... thats how their leaders are like.

Their leaders! Okay! You're not a jew hater, are you? Of course not!

I'm hittin' the sack.

White phosphorus is being used in Gaza, a densely populated area. That is a violation of the Geneva convention of 1980. Israel is trying to skirt that CCW restriction by saying that it is using the WP as a smoke screen. They learned that tactic very well from the US, who used WP in Fallujah:
Here is the double talk that the US used to squirm out of being accused of war crimes:
www.independent.co.uk...

The Pentagon has admitted US forces used white phosphorus as "an incendiary weapon" during the assault last year on Fallujah. A Pentagon spokesman's comments last night appeared to contradict the US ambassador to London who said that American forces did not use white phosphorus as a weapon. Pentagon spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Barry Venable said that white phosphorus - which is normally used to lay smokescreens - was not covered by international conventions on chemical weapons. But Professor Paul Rodgers of the University of Bradford department of peace studies said it probably would fall into the category of chemical weapons if it was used directly against people. A recent documentary by the Italian state broadcaster, RAI, claimed that Iraqi civilians, including women and children, had died of burns caused by white phosphorus during the assault on Fallujah. The report has been strenuously denied by the US, however Col Venable disclosed that it had been used to dislodge enemy fighters from entrenched positions in the city. "White phosphorus is a conventional munition. It is not a chemical weapon. They are not outlawed or illegal," he said on the BBC Radio 4 PM programme. "We use them primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases. However it is an incendiary weapon and may be used against enemy combatants." Asked directly if it was used as an offensive weapon during the siege of Fallujah, he replied: "Yes, it was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants". He added: "When you have enemy forces that are in covered positions that your high explosive artillery rounds are not having an impact on and you wish to get them out of those positions, one technique is to fire a white phosphorus round into the position because the combined effects of the fire and smoke - and in some case the terror brought about the explosion on the ground - will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives," he said. However in a letter yesterday to The Independent, the US ambassador to London, Robert Tuttle, denied that white phosphorus was deployed as a weapon. "US forces participating in Operation Iraqi Freedom continue to use appropriate lawful conventional weapons against legitimate targets," he said. "US forces do not use napalm or white phosphorus as weapons."

Notice how the story changed several times. Israel learned from that, and immediately went to the smoke bomb defense. You see, the US doesn't just give Israel the weapons, it also provides them with the appropriate excuses to use, if they are accused of war crimes.

TheColdDragon has it pretty much nailed. As far as global condemnation is concerned, if I'm considered as part of the global community, I'm in on that. I hereby condemn them. If I hurt their feelings, so much the better. It's the least I can do given the situation. No hatred involved on my part.

You know, with some of the Israeli supporters claiming that anyone that opposes Israel is anti-Semitic, I wonder if all of us would be accused of "hate crimes" if the new Hate Bill introduced into Congress by Sheila-Jackson Kee becomes law.
Kind of interesting how it is timed with the anti-Israeli sentiment going on now.

Can you provide some evidence that they were just shooting randomly? I don't mean a biased new article I mean undisputable factual evidence?

No I can't. Because I don't believe they are just shooting randomly.

However I do believe they are specifically using WP for a REASON. If they are aiming at one building that perhaps ONE Hamas member is in, there is no reason to use a 3-shell burst of WP. They are using it as an incendiary round, period.

Shooting during the day proves they are not using it for night time illumination. And I don't for one second believe that any military would use WP as a smoke screen in an urban environment. It is not effective.

So what does that leave? It leaves the IDF firing WP into a town indiscriminately. I say that because WP air burst is not an accurate round. You can not be precise with an air burst round at all. So why? Why are they using it??

Originally posted by FlyersFan
1 - That's an ISLAMIC paper and the title of their article is WRONG.

At no point in the article does Israel say they are 'hurt by global condemnation'. No where.

2 - All the ignorant and error filled anti-Israel threads like this are going to get ATS listed by the ADL as a 'hate site' .. and that's something that is very difficult for a site to shake off.

Why is it that its Ok to blatantly murder in the name of religion and not OK to post personal views condemning such actions on ATS? ATS is an intelligent, open forum for discussion, of course there will be a vast majority that will appear anti-Semitic due to their posts, why, because once again people are being murdered in their hundreds, in today's allegedly "civilised" world, in the name of religion, it wouldn't matter what the religion is, mass murder is just that, irrelevant of what beliefs instigated the act.

So for the sake of all those compassionate people (not) that don't like anti-murder posts, IRRELEVANT OF THEIR RELIGION, lets pretend that murdering innocent men, women and children is a really good thing and write some special lovely words on ATS, just in case they should be offended by the response of ATS members with compassion over the actions of their religion, whatever that may be.

this link adds a twist

www.globalresearch.ca...

how come the world doesn't cry when gaza is launching rockets into isreal or when hezbola does it sorry i miss spelled it. let isreal defend its self. go get the isreal. go guard a184th

You!

Who is without sin! you may cast the first stone!

I pitty Israel, they are just retaliating to the hamas attacks didn't they?
I mean, cannot you nowadays protect you own?
is it wrong to fight back when you are in danger?
Hamas have muscle and people, instead of crying like babies,
just put together a GENIUS plan to overtake the Israelites?
that would be very logical and practical thing to do wouldn't it?

I will go over to the Police station today and throw rocks at them
let's see if they retaliated or not, Wish me luck guys!

Originally posted by tengkorak
You!

Who is without sin! you may cast the first stone!

I pitty Israel, they are just retaliating to the hamas attacks didn't they?
I mean, cannot you nowadays protect you own?
is it wrong to fight back when you are in danger?
Hamas have muscle and people, instead of crying like babies,
just put together a GENIUS plan to overtake the Israelites?
that would be very logical and practical thing to do wouldn't it?

I will go over to the Police station today and throw rocks at them
let's see if they retaliated or not, Wish me luck guys!

Oh, I see. The Police in your metaphor are the Israelis and you're a stone-throwing Arab.

You left a few things out though. The Arab didn't go to the Police station and start throwing rocks.
The Arab was living in his home when the Police threw him out and moved in themselves, kindly letting him and his family live in the back yard.
Next the Police got their co-workers to put up houses for themselves in your backyard, driving you into a corner.
Then the Police got annoyed at your protests, and built a wall to cut you off from your water tap and your vegetable garden.

Now they are annoyed at you throwing rocks at their window, so they are killing your children.

Meanwhile the Police are still playing the victim card to the rest of the world, hoping no-one will realise they just want to be rid of the Arab family for good and have the whole property, including the water tap, to themselves.

reply to post by dooper


Technically speaking you are correct but we are not talking about a classic war between two countries. Are gaza and palestine seperate, sovereign countries? I think you know the answer to that!

Yes SOME people, within these two REGIONS of israel, immensely dislike israeli jews and fire home-made rockets at random points within the "mainland" so in effect we are talking about a civil conflict, or civil war if thats what you prefer.

If america was fighting blacks within a major city would f-16's be bombing homes, factories, churches, schools or any other building you can think of? Or would they call the riot police and/or at most the national guard to round up any trouble-makers?

I realise the situation in Israel is quite different in that we have arabs on one side and jews on the other and both hate each other but still you don't bomb your "own" citizens for christ sake. Like I said there are many more efficient and LEGAL ways to deal with the situation with far fewer casualties on BOTH SIDES!

I really do think Israel is using hamas, or more correctly LETTING HAMAS be aggressive because that in turn would allow the zionist agenda of EXPANSION to proceed without any hiccups. What better way to camouflague a secret agenda then to say "we are fighting terror"

Anyway one looks at the situation IT STINKS PROFUSELY! It is no coincidence that the world is condeming israel for their poor behavior. A few years ago if you asked me what I thought I could have gone along with "they are simply defending themselves" but such a loopsided casualty ratio and the tactics employed by the IDF smell a hidden agenda.

If this not the case I suggest Israel change their ways because terror will only get worse with these atrocities being committed in gaza. Last year they did the same damage to lebanon but at least that WAS a legitimate war between two countries. A conflict with gaza is a domestic issue and should be treated as such.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


At the end of the day, the hidden and long past reasons for fighting are inconsequential.

Once attacked in any manner, one is free to stop the attacks against his person, his country, his nation.

Once a decision to counterattack is made, it should be a purely military operation. The goal in a military operation is to destroy the enemy.

To not use any weapon in the arsenal is to cause unnecessary casualties for your own side. From a moral standpoint, to use less than everything in your arsenal is a morally wrong decision that works against your own people.

Civilians, or non-combatants have been getting killed during conflict since the first caveman, rared back to throw a rock, and mistakenly took out the back of his buddy's head.

To tell the truth, from a purely military standpoint, Israel is fighting this fight very inefficiently.

They have allowed political considerations to negate the military necessity. Military necessity requires a conclusion. And you can't have a conclusion until you have destroyed the other side.

When Russia entered Berlin, they pursued a purely military approach. Nothing mattered except victory. They quite correctly, destroyed and destroyed until all surrendered and there were no more to fight.

Israel has not elected to do this.

And so this conflict will continue.

And thousands more will suffer for many years to come.

You call that humanitarian?

reply to post by dooper


I am looking at the conflict from a legal perspective while you choose to ignore this aspect. The question is *why*? Do you really think this is irrellevant? Are gaza, palestine and israel truely *seperate countries*?

You do realise that israeli officials may someday face a war crimes tribunal, don't you? Not because they don't have a right to defend themselves but because their methods are illegal.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

I think this is part of the problem. Misunderstanding of principles. An inability to separate military versus civic virtues.

War has no legal perspective. Militarily speaking, anyone that says there are rules in war or fighting are delusional. Rules extend the suffering in numbers and the length of hostilities.

One of the great military analysts Clausewitz wrote:

"Now, philanthropists may easily imagine there is a skillful method of disarming and overcoming an enemy without causing great bloodshed, and that this is the proper tendency of the Art of War. However plausible this may appear, it is an error that must be extirpated . . ."

Marcus Tullius Cicero wrote millennia ago that "Laws are inoperative in war."

But the greatest among the Masters of Warfare (Sun Tzu) wrote: (ways a sovereign can bring disaster to his army)

"By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the condition that obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's mind. Humanity and Justice are the principles on which to govern a state, but not an army; opportunity and flexibility on the other hand, are military rather than civic virtues."

Civic, peacetime virtues are polar opposites from military virtues. On a battlefield, the concept of justice is nonexistent. There is no justice in war.

There is supposed to be only focused destruction, and you are supposed to be on the giving end or the receiving end.

You make up your mind, and you follow through, or you allow a state of perpetual misery to continue unabated.


[edit on 14-1-2009 by dooper]

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by MrVertigo

 

More than a thousand dead. Hundreds of them children.

That's genocide in my book.

Bullets have no names and you have no proof that Israel is solely responsible for all of those deaths. You merely assume and you know what happens when you assume.

Like rockets don't have no name israel do not have any evidence that it was shot off solely by some Hamas members.

Best regards.

Loke.

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by forklift

 

Take the bloody picture off, holy crap these israelis are worst than barbarians.

You have no proof Israel committed this act. Maybe it was hamas with one of their homemade explosives.

You and your "You have no proof the israel did this" or the other famous "Bullets do not carry names on it"....

Stop it already please, most of us has figured out that you either works for mossad or are somehow related with zionist.

Best regards.

Loke.