To staunch pro-lifers : Is abortion always wrong?

reply to post by FlyersFan


I understand what you are saying, and I speak as a scientist here:

The trend is indeed that NICU units are capable of taking care of severely premature babies now, and that limit may continue up to a certain point.

In my personal opinion, I don't think a baby will survive pre-18 weeks. However I may well be wrong, and at that time my views will change.


However at the smallest, most primordial levels, I don't think science will conclusively prove that there is a life force in fetuses. "Life" itself is immensely problematic to characterise... there is a constant debate about life and sentience. We can see the building blocks of life as essentially "living" even by themselves. For example, you could look at a single human cell as containing the potential for life, or as living itself (indeed, via cloning it could be). Thats why at the cellular level, I see nothing special in a fetus.

Its why I will always be firmly in support of embryonic stem cell research, and for the availability of post-conception drugs (morning after pill).

As for abortion, my personal views will keep changing in accordance with new information. My social views will always lend themselves to personal freedom and choice.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
No. It's valid. If she wants to kill herself by stopping her own heart beat - through suicide - that's her body and her choice. But to say that Abortion is something that a woman does to her own body is silly. She isn't killing herself in abortion, she's killling someone else - stopping someone else's heart from beating.

Wrong, until that heart or that body is outside of the woman's body, that heart and that body are attached to her and growing in one of her organs. They are all hers. It's not someone else. It's her. It's all her choice.

It's a little sill to sit here are repeat over and over again that the fetus can feel pain. That doesn't mean anything. Plants feel pain.

And once again: Abortion is not murder. Murder, by definition, is the illegal act of killing someone. Abortion is not illegal, and so, is not murder.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
They are all hers. It's not someone else. It's her.

WRONG. It's someone else's heart. Not her own.
They are not one person. They are two people.
Two hearts. Two brains. Two different people.

sit here are repeat over and over again that the fetus can feel pain. That doesn't mean anything.

:shk: Children feeling pain 'doesn't mean anything'? Thats sick.
And yes, I'll repeat it over and over. If that makes you uncomfortable -
GOOD! Perhaps it will sink in that abortion causes innocent defenseless
humans intense pain.

Abortion is not murder. Murder, by definition, is the illegal act of killing someone. Abortion is not illegal, and so, is not murder.

It wasn't illegal to murder black people during slavery in the USA. But it was still murder. It wasn't illegal to kill jews during the holocost, but it was still murder.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
my personal views will keep changing in accordance with new information. .

reply to post by FlyersFan


It doesn't make me uncomfortable, it makes you sound redundant. And no matter how many times you say it, anything growing inside another person is the property of said person.

Poor baby girl.

Buffalo News

Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy. Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

god gives choice... and you must live by that choice. Only the heart of the person deciding knows for sure. That's their individual right. It's between them and God. Anyone can murder if they want. It's choice and there is only one law. Governments and religions have no place in judgement. So it should be for all things...

Let me put another hypothesis to the so called pro lifers... If the devil raped a woman and the child was destined to become the anti christ. Would she have the right to abortion? Be carefull, you just may help create the destiny of the human race here... It's all about contracts

[edit on 6-2-2009 by spacial]

Originally posted by spacial
If the devil raped a woman and the child was ...

The devil is pure spirit and incapable of procreation with a human.

But since you bring the devil into the conversation -

Philadelphia - the Bulletin

An exorcist authorized to perform exorcisms in several dioceses spoke at a religious ministry luncheon on Sunday, explaining the basics of exorcism and its connection with abortion.

Fr. Thomas Euteneuer, president of Human Life International and an exorcist, spoke at a luncheon hosted by In His Sign Network (IHS). He is an exorcist authorized to perform exorcisms in several states, and highlighted the connection between the abortion industry and demonic influence.

“Abortion is a demonic industry,” he told The Bulletin. “Abortion is blood sacrifice of innocent blood to the devil. The clinics are like temples, the doctors are like priests, the medical table is like their altar. It’s a ritualized sacrifice. They have a dogma called choice, a hierarchy called Planned Parenthood, and guardian angels in the form of police guards that will arrest you if you try to stop them.”

Originally posted by spacial
so called pro lifers

Nothing 'so called' about it. Pro life is pro life.



[edit on 2/7/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by spacial
If the devil raped a woman and the child was ...

The devil is pure spirit and incapable of procreation with a human.

But since you bring the devil into the conversation -

Philadelphia - the Bulletin

An exorcist authorized to perform exorcisms in several dioceses spoke at a religious ministry luncheon on Sunday, explaining the basics of exorcism and its connection with abortion.

Fr. Thomas Euteneuer, president of Human Life International and an exorcist, spoke at a luncheon hosted by In His Sign Network (IHS). He is an exorcist authorized to perform exorcisms in several states, and highlighted the connection between the abortion industry and demonic influence.

“Abortion is a demonic industry,” he told The Bulletin. “Abortion is blood sacrifice of innocent blood to the devil. The clinics are like temples, the doctors are like priests, the medical table is like their altar. It’s a ritualized sacrifice. They have a dogma called choice, a hierarchy called Planned Parenthood, and guardian angels in the form of police guards that will arrest you if you try to stop them.”

Originally posted by spacial
so called pro lifers

Nothing 'so called' about it. Pro life is pro life.



[edit on 2/7/2009 by FlyersFan]

OK good point.

So the devil tempts right???

He can temp men right?

Say the devil wanted to get into the mind of a man and offer him all the riches of the world?

Now say the devil asked the man he must rape a Christian virgin in order for the anti christ to become into being.

Say, Christians had full knowledge through prophets that the ant christ was in fact this to be child and he has come to destroy the world.

In this one case, would abortion be ok for the "no doubt about it, always.... pro lifers"

Do pro lifers disagree with wars like in Iraq because people get killed in wars, lots of children too? Pro life means exactly what to you?

Are pro-lifers vegetarian because animals have lives too? Do they eat eggs??? Tiny baby chickens yet to be born...?

What part of "pro life" do they always adhere too?

That is why i say "so called" because i believe it is not a correct usage of English language and more just a marketing term...

reply to post by spacial


Thank you!

Pro-life is only pro life for what they care about. Most of them are all for capital punishment, against all welfare programs (don't even care about the ones that ARE living), and have no worries about destroying any other form of life on this planet.

[edit on 2/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]

I was nearly an abortion statistic
Interesting article from a fella that's very glad to be alive.

Always wrong.

The only thing that should be aborted is abortion.

If the babies could speak, they would agree with me 100 percent.

Originally posted by Irish M1ck
Pro-life is only pro life for what they care about. Most of them are all for capital punishment, against all welfare programs (don't even care about the ones that ARE living), and have no worries about destroying any other form of life on this planet.

Now, now, Irish M1ck.
Got any reliable stats to back up your pushing of those stereotypes?

As for your claim that pro-lifers dont' care about the people who are alive ... that's hogwash. If people didn't care about those who were alive then they wouldn't be trying to educate them about the downside of abortion. You know .. those things that abortuaries and planned parenthood just love to forget to mention.

BTW - not that it matters - I'm against the death penalty for almost all cases. Only in the matter of self defense - such as if a prisoner was so violent that he/she is a threat to the other prisoners or guards - that's the only time that the death penalty should be used.

But for those that believe in the death penalty - they believe that an innocent helpless baby shouldn't suffer the same fate as a convicted violent offender. There is a difference. The violent offender knew what he/she was doing and knew that they could receive the death penalty for it. However, the innocent baby has done absolutely nothing wrong and doesn't deserve death.

Originally posted by spacial
i believe it is not a correct usage of English language and more just a marketing term...

That's what 'pro-choice' is .. a marketing term. Pro lifers are not taking away a womans right to choose what to do with her body. They are saying that she made the choice when she had sex. They are also saying that the woman has no right to choose to kill someone else - that's someone else's body, not hers.

To say that prolifers are anti-choice is just a marketing term and not correct use of the English language.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well, like I have told you before, you are not typical (and that's a good thing). Most pro-lifers are conservatives. Most conservatives advocate for capital punishment. Most conservatives are against social programs. Most conservatives are not as concerned about the environment, fair treatment of animals, habitat preservation, etc.

You don't fit that, which is good.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
But for those that believe in the death penalty - they believe that an innocent helpless baby shouldn't suffer the same fate as a convicted violent offender. There is a difference. The violent offender knew what he/she was doing and knew that they could receive the death penalty for it. However, the innocent baby has done absolutely nothing wrong and doesn't deserve death.

But, see, many don't view a fetus as a baby. Therein lies the difference. And if you are "pro-life", then you are pro-not-killing, no matter what.

I just have to agree with the previous poster that pro-life is a pseudo-position to take. Pro stopping abortions? Sure. Pro every fetus having a chance? Sure.

And being "pro-life" would have to come with so many more stipulations. You'd have to be pro population control. You'd have to be pro clean energy.

Is killing sperm wrong? Pro-life people seem to think stem cells are children, so why can't sperm be children?

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

If a test reveals that an unborn child has down's syndrome is it unethical to terminate it?

You mean kill it? Yes, it is more than unethical. It is murder.

Originally posted by 44soulslayerI
However let's look at a truly rare case. A woman has just decided to keep conjoined (siamese) twins despite a test revealing that they will be born with two bodies and have only one head. The potential for suffering is immense, while the expected life span is negligible. Read the full story here : news.bbc.co.uk...

This is an easy fix. There is only one person here since there is only one head. The second body must be removed.

There's a video online of teen-aged girls who have two heads and one body. They have to share a body, coordinate their hand and foot movements. These girls will probably never marry, but they seem happy and normal, and I'm sure they are glad to be alive. Life has a value beyond price, and if we value our own lives we will value other people's lives as well, that is if we "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Nobody has a perfect life. This life will never be perfect. Be thankful to be alive and be kind to each other and try to do right. The next life is what it's all about anyway. This life as the Bible says is just a "vapor," a testing ground to see who chooses good and to submit to God and who chooses the dark side and wants to trample on people to get what they want NOW.

[edit on 18-2-2009 by Salt of the Earth]

[edit on 18-2-2009 by Salt of the Earth]

Originally posted by earthman4
Is killing sperm wrong? Pro-life people seem to think stem cells are children, so why can't sperm be children?

That would be too logical an argument for many pro-lifers to handle. They never can answer that question. When a man "let's off some steam" he kills millions of sperm. Millions of potential lives. And yet women get harassed over their decision to terminate ONE potential life.

reply to post by Salt of the Earth


Its not that simple. You cant just chop off the second body.

There is also the issue of which body do you keep? They are two people sharing only one head.

You cut off one body, you deprive it of life. Isn't that murder? Pro-life people always keep bringing up the "beating heart" of a fetus as supposed evidence of its life- why doesn't this continue post birth?

I can understand Flyer's position, but yours is simply bizarre! Its almost as if life is only sacred to you before birth, and after birth you dont care about the person. Seems to me that your opinions are just guided by dogma and brainwashing from some source.