Does the Talmud encourage and condone pedophilia?

I've run across a couple frightening aspects of the Talmud- if true. As a mother of two children, I hope with my whole heart these claims are mere smears.

www.nytimes.com...

A circumcision ritual practiced by some Orthodox Jews has alarmed city health officials, who say it may have led to three cases of herpes - one of them fatal - in infants. But after months of meetings with Orthodox leaders, city officials have been unable to persuade them to abandon the practice.

The city's intervention has angered many Orthodox leaders, and the issue has left the city struggling to balance its mandate to protect public health with the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom.

"This is a very delicate area, so to speak," said Health Commissioner Thomas R. Frieden.

The practice is known as oral suction, or in Hebrew, metzitzah b'peh: after removing the foreskin of the penis, the practitioner, or mohel, sucks the blood from the wound to clean it.

It became a health issue after a boy in Staten Island and twins in Brooklyn, circumcised by the same mohel in 2003 and 2004, contracted Type-1 herpes. Most adults carry the disease, which causes the common cold sore, but it can be life-threatening for infants. One of the twins died.

If that article wasn't bad enough, I came across this questionable site.

www.libreopinion.com...

15. "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated." -- .9boda Sarah 37a.

16. "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl." -- &ad. Shas. 2:2.

17. "A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat." --Hadarine, 20, B; Schulchan 9ruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348.

18. "A Jew may misuse the non-Jewess in her state of unbelief." -- Maimonides, Jak. Chasaka 2:2.

As an agnostic, I do not and will not take part in a holy war- verbal or otherwise- or even belittle someone's beliefs, but if a religion condones such actions, then there is something very wrong with the heart of the world.

I just really want to know- are these claims true?

... I am by no means an expert.... But, I have read that these types of practices were added to the "Jewish" faith during the Babalyonian captivity...

...So... the website would suggest, that these are actually practices of a much "darker" faith....

The infiltration and subversion of major positive faiths/religions in general

....If I can find the related website,...I will post it

reply to post by cosmokatt7


Very true that is is a darker and ancient, but when children today are dying from Herpes from a Rabi "sucking" blood from private parts...

WTF RELIGION IS THAT?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That sort of circumcision does occur, though not with any real frequency. The reason it was done originally was for hygiene (the rabbi puts alcohol in his mouth and sucks the blood out to prevent infection), not sexual gratification. Not to say some sick wierdo Rabbi hasn't gotten off on it sometime in history, but I can't imagine it's an endemic problem.

As far as the quotes from the Talmud, you have to put it in perspective.

The passage about 3 year old children is..something like 1800-1900 years old at this point. What it says is that MARRIAGE is acceptable. There are plenty of other cultures that marry their children very young, for various reasons. Also, this is the opinion of a scholar, not the word of God...

All that said, I think the protection for religions ends wherever their values conflict with our public health and safety laws.

If a new religion sprung up and their belief system required them to kill babies every full moon, we wouldn't let them get away with it, right? So why should we let some weird bearded guy put his mouth on a baby's junk, when it goes against everything we recognize as decency?

Although it doesn't seem there are very many "credible sources" acknowledged or go without being picked apart on this site, ( certainly a necessity) I did however run across one video that backs up pretty much every claim- including intercourse w/ a 3 year old, amongst other distateful proclamations.

www.youtube.com...

Even as it is an antiquaited belief reaching back almost two thousand years, I still can't fathom such notions! People still live their lives and practice such beliefs to this day, hiding behind the defensive cap of religion.

I'm amazed and disgusted over the actions permitted in the names of religion.

Guess we need one that allows us to print our own money.

On the other hand, I remember watching a true life tv film about a young woman who murdered or helped murder her sexually abusive father. The judge gave her a six month sentence. Why? Based on old jewish "bible" teachings a child was allowed to murder her/his sexually abusive parent.

Originally posted by orderedchaos
As an agnostic, I do not and will not take part in a holy war- verbal or otherwise- or even belittle someone's beliefs, but if a religion condones such actions, then there is something very wrong with the heart of the world.

I just really want to know- are these claims true?

Why are you taking a part of it?

Have you just taken the translators words or have you bothered to extensively research and try to find out the truth for yourself?

"I do not and will not take part in a holy.. " blah blah blah and yet you are.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by orderedchaos
Although it doesn't seem there are very many "credible sources" acknowledged or go without being picked apart on this site, ( certainly a necessity) I did however run across one video that backs up pretty much every claim- including intercourse w/ a 3 year old, amongst other distateful proclamations.

www.youtube.com...

Even as it is an antiquaited belief reaching back almost two thousand years, I still can't fathom such notions! People still live their lives and practice such beliefs to this day, hiding behind the defensive cap of religion.

I'm amazed and disgusted over the actions permitted in the names of religion.

Guess we need one that allows us to print our own money.

The Talmud does NOT condone having sex with a 3 year old child. It is *your* lack of putting words in the CORRECT context.

reply to post by WyrdeOne


So much closer to the truth. It was not condoning having sex with 3 year old girls.

Remember, many jewish families have arranged marriages. It was NOT saying that a child of 3 could get married at 3... and DEFINATELY not have sex at 3 years old.

EDITED TO ADD: it was minimal age for arranging marriages.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by justamomma]

The talmud does NOT condone pedophilia at all. there are a number of web sites that post quotes from the Talmud that are either grossly misquoted or not posted in their entirty. This is an attempt to make the Jewish people look like deviants by a bunch of people who have nothing better to do than to spread antisemetic drivel. Just like holocaust denial sites there are a lot of them. The talmud is available to anyone who wants to read what it really says in a variety of english verisons. I have several myself.

what is interesting about this article and the web site is where in Modern western society has anyone seen Judaism or any quote from the Talmud, Midrash or torah or Old Testament (depending on ones translation)-that would support or encourage anysort of pedophilia...
I have never known a Jew or Xstian to be a pedophile or be of the mind that this is encouraged.
are there pedophiles of every religion- yes of course it is a sickness which permeates all levels and groups of the world.
I am not aware of any group that specifically encourages it or practices it.
certainly not any of the Abrahamic traditions or Buddhism either

Several claims of "misquoting" and "out of context", but no one is showing the correct quotes, or the quotes in context.

Now why is that?

As for sucking the blood, that is true and goes with their tradition. One has to wonder to what extent adults can "have their way" with babies/children. Could a group of adults get together of non-jewish faith, not perform the procedure, and still do their thing on a babies piece? You would think that would be legal considering what orthodox jews do, but that would be pedophilia and they would be jailed.

If "religious freedom" is your answer, then what makes people not just invent their own religion and do something even worse and still be protected? A government can't discriminate between "old" religions and "new" ones, how exactly would it go about doing that? At some point the protection of these babies has to come into play, adults shouldn't be able to do this legally.

Funny how many of these religious groups are all for protecting the baby when its in the womb, but when it comes out, they can't wait to get their hands (and mouths I should say in this case) on the new baby. Reminds me of George Carlin, "prenatal you're fine, preschool you're f*****".



[edit on 13-1-2009 by ghaleon12]

reply to post by sir_chancealot


I explained the context and you ignored it, is that my problem or your problem?



There's no sense in trying to convince people of the truth if they're hellbent on bashing the Joos, but I like to think people are intelligent enough to let sleeping dogs lie, when their own ancient religious texts condone everything from stoning to infanticide. Seriously, Pot, meet kettle.

The Talmud is available online.

Here is an abridged, some have said, sanitized version in English translation:

www.sacred-texts.com...

Here is the Talmud in Hebrew (I believe this is unabridged):

www.e-daf.com...

I haven't been able to find an unabridged English translation of the Talmud.

In looking around the web I have found numerous websites dedicated to exposing teachings of the Talmud. They range from attempts to expose sexual practices which would be violations of what is considered normal and healthy in our time, to attempts to expose comprehensive bigotry toward non Jews and toward Jews who do not accept the authority of the Talmud.

(Note: Although the Torah, i.e., the Old Testament of the Bible, predates the Talmud, Orthodox Judaism puts more emphasis and gives greater authority to the Talmud, which are commentaries and teachings of the Jewish scribes, said to have been written down during the Babylonian Captivity.)

Some of what I have seen quoted from the Talmud, if quoted accurately, is pretty offensive. The Koran and the Bible can be offensive too, but the Talmud, seemed to be extraordinarily refined and detailed in it's capacity to deliver offense.

There are many legalistic prescriptions on behavior that of necessity must refer to numerous varieties of behavior to fulfill the purposes of the authors to govern the conduct of their constituency. This format, one might refer to it as obsessive jurisprudenciality, has a particularly macabre effect when, for example, the Talmud discusses the proper way that females under a certain age must be dealt with in sexual relationships, so as to safeguard their health, etc.

When one is exposed to a lot of passages, one realizes that Jews who follow the Talmudic teachings exist under an avalanche of regulations.

I can't read Hebrew, so I can't judge the criticism that I have read, of the Talmud. If you look through some of the critical presentations though, you will find a certain consistency of content presented from a diverse range of sources both old and new.

In some cases, Jewish Rabbis themselves, in interpreting Talmudic material, give a substantial endorsement to the criticism, insofar as they acknowledge by their own commentaries that the material in question does actually occur in the Talmud. A case in point being the prescriptions on sexual matters pertaining to what we would consider underage women in marriage.

My impression of the Talmud is that it is another example of religious material from an ancient time which is in need of some editing and expurgation. I would include the Koran and the Bible in that category as well. In my view there are appalling things in all of those works. Serious intelligent people, who aren't little children in intellect, skip those parts and get on with getting along with the people around them, like most sane adults do.


[edit on 16-1-2009 by ipsedixit]

reply to post by WyrdeOne


Yeah, right! These post-Redemption books written by Jews with axes to grind against Christians, Romans, Greeks and "gentiles" in general do not bother me at all. What bothers me are the acts of genocide in the OT allegedly ordered by God. And similarly, punishments for women for adultery and being unclean due to menstruation are puzzling. Take also that incident in the wilderness when God allegedly gave them birds to eat which made some of them sicken and die. I wish I could speak or read works by that Vatican priest Bill Maher interviewed in his film Religulous who said that many of the stories in the bible are just that - stories and unfortunately, many people feel they must cling to their stories.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
That sort of circumcision does occur, though not with any real frequency. The reason it was done originally was for hygiene (the rabbi puts alcohol in his mouth and sucks the blood out to prevent infection), not sexual gratification. Not to say some sick wierdo Rabbi hasn't gotten off on it sometime in history, but I can't imagine it's an endemic problem.

I wonder why they don't just dab some alcohol on some cotton wool?

If it was my child, I'd beat the crap out of that Rabbi because regardless of his intentions, that's just deviant.

As for the scripture snippets, I suspect this more a case of people twisting the words of some ancient text, but I'm not Jewish so I wouldn't know.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
reply to post by sir_chancealot

 

I explained the context and you ignored it, is that my problem or your problem?

There's no sense in trying to convince people of the truth if they're hellbent on bashing the Joos, but I like to think people are intelligent enough to let sleeping dogs lie, when their own ancient religious texts condone everything from stoning to infanticide. Seriously, Pot, meet kettle.

You offered no translated text, no links, nothing other than your word.

Bring up the texts in question, and show how they are "mistranslated" and "out of context". You might educate someone.

I haven't been able to find an unabridged English translation of the Talmud.

In looking around the web I have found numerous websites dedicated to exposing teachings of the Talmud. They range from attempts to expose sexual practices which would be violations of what is considered normal and healthy in our time, to attempts to expose comprehensive bigotry toward non Jews and toward Jews who do not accept the authority of the Talmud.

The only unabridged English translation of the Talmud is the Steinsaltz edition. This rendering is the most complete translation in English. Unfortunately, it was not completed. Redacted translations such as the Artscroll/Schottenstein edition are more in favor. I don't think you will find an online version of the Steinsaltz.

Between 1989 and 1999 Steinsaltz published a small number of volumes in English, and while a new printing with a new publisher was planned in the early 2000's, it did not take place.

Steinsaltz on Wikipediia

Here are some excerpts, make of them what you will:

Object of Sodomy. If a boy under the age of nine perpetrated sodomy upon an adult, the adult is not liable for punishment, for the intercourse of a boy under nine years of age is not legally an act of intercourse. Since a child less than nine years old cannot commit sodomy, he can also not be the object of sodomy.

- BT Sanhedrin 54b

This Baraita* supports Rav, for it teaches that if a man engaged in homosexual intercourse with a child under the age of nine, he is exempt from liability

- BT Sanhedrin 54b (* Baraita is the tradition emanating from post-Gemara rulings rather than from the Mishnah)

If you look into the ruling of Rav concerning this law, you will find in Issurei Biah 1:14 that Moses Maimonides upheld this ruling.

There are those that insist homosexual predation is heavily entrenched within the Yeshiva.

Baltimore Jewish Times Editor Neil Rubin knew his paper’s Friday article detailing sexual abuse allegations against a deceased rabbi would be controversial.

Jewish Times

A civil suit was filed against Rabbi Avraham Mordecai Leizerowitz of the Gerrer Mesivta High School in Borough Park Brooklyn. The charges include improperly touching a boy during a one-on-one help session in the rabbi's office in the Borough Park secondary school. Three other older boys have also come forward making similar allegations.

Expose Molesters

Police investigators stunned to find ultra-Orthodox parents ignored sexual abuse of their two children after their rabbi warned filing charges may invoke halachic rule equal to 'din moser'

Jewish World

But what the principal at the United Talmudical Academy did to the boy that day — and several times a week over the next two months — was far from grandfatherly, Engelman charges in a suit he filed last week.

The Jewish Week

This summary was written by an anonymous ultra-Orthodox insider and published as part of an open letter during the first week of December, 2006.

Kolko

The Awareness Centre

We are all aware of molesters in the RCC, but this problem within Jewish Orthodoxy does not recieve the same amount of attention. And the children are paying for it.