Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

What does the ego want? Existence as a separate thing. How does the ego assure itself it "IS?" By struggling against "other." How does this work? Because if there is an "other" to struggle against, there must be an "I" to struggle against "other."

Could one assume then that this idea of a soul is just another way for the ego to escape as a separate entity? To be separate an survive?

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Wertdagf

Could one assume then that this idea of a soul is just another way for the ego to escape as a separate entity? To be separate an survive?

If the soul is considered to be a true individuality, then I would say yes, that kind of soul is the way the ego deals with the unpleasant observable fact of death of the body, and the equally unpleasant fact that even given the "idea" of reincarnation, the "ego identity" is lost upon death. It is a mind that is not completely rejecting observation, but that still requires separateness for itself from "other." No matter how creative the tale must become to achieve that.

Mind you I am not saying that you at your core, as Consciousness itself, does not survive apparent death and is reincarnated. What I am pointing to, but cannot due to the way language itself works say perfectly, is that your soul is not truly separate from THE SOUL of God, or the Divine, or the Universe. You are not the triangle, at your essence, you are the point. As you move forward or backward into infinity, the triangle that you are "seeing" may change, but every single triangle is actually a line that creates a division of something that is fundamentally that singularity.

The idea of continuity of existence of "Self" is not mistaken, if Self is viewed as One thing that contains ALL things. (like the point or singularity in the video contains within it infinite potential for division) Every division in that point down to infinity will contain the One thing in which the division occurs. However each division is not ever truly separate from the One thing in which those dividing lines are drawn, and so they are not "existent as an other."

The egoic mind wants to believe the separation is real, really, really, real, that IT has separate existence, but if you think back to the circle with the triangles into infinity, which of those aspects or divisions was not merely an aspect of that One, the circular boundary? Where is there room in that for true separation? Regardless if the "true separation" is regarded as a physical body or a non-physical soul? For it to be separate, really, it would have to be outside the point where ALL Is. Can that be?

In a fractal such as that, how could one division of something that is One, have more merit or sin than any other? How could one division or aspect of such a thing lack or gain something another aspect did or did not have? The thing I would be trying to say is that no matter what triangle you apparently are, or how many branches of triangles into infinity you care to trace "yourself" your "essence" is that of the singularity in which all apparent division occurs, not the triangles. You are not, nor could you possibly be, separate from that.

What do you think of those that say unless you follow their ways, their ideals and beliefs you will never become enligtened? Is this fair on people to say these things to us? What gives them the right to try and take our connection away from us, I believe enlightenment is available to all not just the select few who think they are "the chosen ones" and unless we follow them we are doomed. Doomed to a life of spiritual darkness.

Enligtenment is inside us all, not just those who think they are spiritual masters full of ego. If anyone trys to tell you they are a master, they are not, spiritual masters are the ones who guide you to find things yourself, they love you unconditionally with no fear. Anyone who trys to tell you other wise is not a master and certainly is not enlightened. Beware is all can say. Beware and just follow your own heart and you will not go wrong.

This thankfully does not apply to anyone on this thread, but believe me they are out there, waiting to jump on your insecurities and willingness to learn and give love. Im just too trusting thats my problem , but how can we even hope to find enligtenment if we dont embrace all?

Sorry slightly off topic rant but these things get to me some times.

reply to post by Mr Green


On the issue of trust ms green, I just go by the thought... well if you´re going to trust a certain person, are you willing to accept the consequences of a possible betrayal of trust?

If you can deal with it then there really isn´t much of a problem is there?

I would just say as always, stay open, listen to your subconscious or heart, etc etc.

anyways..

Originally posted by CavemanDD
MG, if you look buddha boy up on youtube it shows that he has come back. It was actually about a week before I watched that vid that he came back, I found it interesting. He sure looks the same, just a year and half older with long hair.

Hi caveman, yes I think I mentioned in my post he came back just under 2 years later. He is a very interesting case, maybe he would be better meditating somewhere out of the public eye, so it doesnt turn into a circus. I have no doubt hes found some level of enligtenment only few have seen.

Thanks for sending me it, it became very relevant to the thread .

reply to post by Mr Green


Yes its rather amusing how it turned into a big circus. I think thats why he discreetly walked away and just continued meditating in the jungle undesturbed.

A very interesting case indeed, as well as that other guy, i thought that was pretty cool.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


We agree on so much.... Do you know what empathy is? Maybe that would explain my zeal.

We only seem to disagree on my method in this apparent madness. You cant lure people into logic. I find that producing anger in others allows for a more truthfull discussion when it comes to ideals. Its stops people from double wrapping their ego before charging in. How angry should one get when being told they believe lies and are ignorant of reality? If they really know their right what difference would it make?

Originally posted by CavemanDD
reply to post by Mr Green

 

On the issue of trust ms green, I just go by the thought... well if you´re going to trust a certain person, are you willing to accept the consequences of a possible betrayal of trust?

Betrayal of trust, thats a hard one, to give so much trust to another, especially in matters that are so important as enlightenment, love and well ones sanity is difficult when they turn out not to have your best interests at heart.

Yes I must accept these consequences or it will effect my hearts ability to love unconditionally. Unconditional love is just that, so I will love these false masters too...thank you caveman for that. If I turned this into a drama the ego would love that, it survives on drama and upset. So no by accepting this for what it is, watching my egos reaction to it and just watching rather than reacting, my spirit will survive the egos attempt at trying to create a drama. Ego loves life drama. When we feel sorry for ourselves thats drama. Anxiety,guilt, loneliness, jealousy all feelings of drama the ego loves. These dramatic emotions we have are not the real us and until we recognize them as manifestations of the mind we are stuck in the mind.

Thanks DD.

"While I was at UCLA, D.T. Suzuki (the famous Zen scholar, writer, master, etc) came to visit. They set up the Regents auditorium for him. So we were all there, the audience all excited, and out came the head of the Oriental department. The audience all quited down. The Head introduced:

"Here is D.T.Suzuki, world class Zen scholar, writer, master, etc..here he is!"

We all sat in silence. This little guy comes out to the mike. Adjusts a pair of glasses. This is him, we've seen pictures of him before, but he looks smaller and etc. He reaches out and taps the mike.

A hollow ping sounds though the hall.

He says:

"Zen Buddhism, Very hard understand, Thank you" and walks off stage.

www.dk.librarything.com...

So it is with enlightenment, the search is is ecstasy, the result disappointing.

The journey has no end, until we take our last breath.

Might as well go fishing.

H.H.H.Daliamamma

[edit on 033131p://bSunday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

We only seem to disagree on my method in this apparent madness. You cant lure people into logic. I find that producing anger in others allows for a more truthfull discussion when it comes to ideals. Its stops people from double wrapping their ego before charging in. How angry should one get when being told they believe lies and are ignorant of reality? If they really know their right what difference would it make?

How exactly does that work then? Making someone so angry allows a more truthful discussion? Isnt anger just the ego amplified? How do they know they are right? How does any one really know they are right and how can shouting make this more real?

These are just questions to you about your post, they are not AT you. Please dont get angry at me will you, I cant take it

Originally posted by CavemanDD
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Yes its rather amusing how it turned into a big circus. I think thats why he discreetly walked away and just continued meditating in the jungle undesturbed.

A very interesting case indeed, as well as that other guy, i thought that was pretty cool.

Was there any proof he did just carry on in the forest away from all those pilgrims?

Yer the other guy (Prahlad Jani) was interesting but not as convincing as he was walking about and talking rather than meditating. He said he took his spiritual energy through his chakras from the sun, but he did loose weight over the ten days which made the scientist think he did actually eat normally.

Originally posted by Mr Green
What do you think of those that say unless you follow their ways, their ideals and beliefs you will never become enligtened?

I am not sure whom this is addressed to, but I will answer anyway.

I think of those people who say you must do it "this one way" that they may be confused. And that there is the possibility that they believe that completely, and so are honest in that sense. (even though I disagree that there is a one path) The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

I also think that there is the possibility that they know what they are saying is not "true" and they may simply be trying to gain personally from convincing you that it is. You would have to look closely at the individual situation to see which is more likely. In this case, the road to hell may be paved with selfish intentions.

Originally posted by Mr Green
Is this fair on people to say these things to us? What gives them the right to try and take our connection away from us, I believe enlightenment is available to all not just the select few who think they are "the chosen ones" and unless we follow them we are doomed. Doomed to a life of spiritual darkness.

I dont consider it in terms of fair. Its just what they are doing. Some of them are not trying to take anything from you, they have an honest desire to "help" they have just misunderstood why what happened to them happened to them and are fixating on the "rituals" or specifics of it, and not really seeing "cause and effect."

Why rail against it? What does fair have to do with it? If someone is making an honest mistake, how are they to blame even if they are objectively wrong? It just is the case that that is what they are doing. See what they are doing, as clearly as you can, and plot your course accordingly. What else can you do?

Struggling against those who may be mistaken, is still struggling. You dont have to walk down the garden path with them, but you can watch them walking wherever they like, or listen to them saying whatever they like with acceptance. You can even discuss with them what you want. Acceptance doesnt mean you do nothing. It means you do what you do without struggling for a specific outcome. You follow your "intuitive guide" as best you are able, and you let the situation unfold without contributing to the disturbance by struggling yourself. You act, rather than react.

Originally posted by Sonya610

Good description. Mesmerizing is accurate. I only wish it would consume me.
[edit on 25-1-2009 by Sonya610]

But can we allow it to consume us. Can we even really wish and hope for it to consume us? If this were to happen how would we carry on with our life? Ive been surrounded by its mesmerizing presence some times for days, and really it wasnt helpful, I became detached from reality, living in an altered state of reality, consummed willingly by love, peace and bliss. Id love to be consumed by it, I really would but it would have to be a permament state as leaving it and returning to this reality is hard. Thats why I say a point comes where we must accept this bliss but leave its presence and move on. Keep it within our heart safe but move on to live our lives, but live our lives in the knowledge we carry it with us. Does this make any sense?

Originally posted by Mr GreenBetrayal of trust, thats a hard one, to give so much trust to another, especially in matters that are so important as enlightenment, love and well ones sanity is difficult when they turn out not to have your best interests at heart.

Perhaps your mistake is thinking that you need another person. You want to believe there are people, or spirit guides, or some other ego based entities that can show you how to do it.

And whether are telling you the truth, or what they think is the truth, or if they are simply manipulating others because they enjoy it, is not the issue. Even if they are lying to you, it isn't there fault that you listen to or believe their lies.

Buddha said -- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Mr Green


Simply don’t put trust in people, when you put trust in somebody you expect something in return. Don’t expect anything off anybody; it will always end in hurt, lost of trust and even anger, unles they always meet your expectations of them. Sit back and watch how we all give you advice and watch how you judge people e.g. “This person said some nice things about me` he is my friend” Watch as your perceptions create a mental label/Image of the person saying the nice things about you.

Now imagine a few days down the line the person who said the nice things about you is having a bad day. Today this person writes something you don’t like and you take it to heart, watch as your judgment changes, and watch as it now creates a new Label/Image in your mind. Where this nice person now, trust now replaced by hurt, but still you carry on expecting something of them, expecting them fit a label/Image that “You” like.

When people give you advice “Take it or leave it, judge the advice for what it is, and don’t become attached in any way shape or form to the person giving you the advice ” As I say it will end it hurt, but as I always say you can observe what I am saying for yourself. If anyone is telling you what you need to do on your journey they are manipulating you for their own selfish gain. They are trying to make you fit the Label/Image in their own mind, in most cases people don’t know they are doing this; they are lost in their mind clinging dearly to their attachments that make them more fulfilled, in this scenario the attachment would be you and your judgment of them e.g. you trusting them and showing appreciation makes them more fulfilled.

You may think… If I don’t trust anyone how do I know I am on the right path?

Only you know if you are on the right path, anyone trying to tell you different is looking out for their own interests unless they are enlightened, however an enlightened person would only point the direction, you would have to read the signpost and walk the paths yourself.

P81


[edit on 25-1-2009 by psycho81]

There is no right or wrong path, everything we do is in response to something that happened or in hope of something to happen. Right and wrong are terms used in society as methods of control.

Originally posted by Sonya610
And whether are telling you the truth, or what they think is the truth, or if they are simply manipulating others because they enjoy it, is not the issue. Even if they are lying to you, it isn't there fault that you listen to or believe their lies.

I would disagree just on a technicality with the part that seeing if they are lying purposefully or innocently is not the issue. It is part of the issue. Consider from the quote you posted;

Originally posted by Sonya610

Buddha said -- But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

One can logically no more disbelieve as a blanket statement than believe. One really does have to actively engage by closely observing the person to see what they are after. Kind of like a martial artist watches every muscle in their opponent to see what move they will make next. If you pay close attention to what a person is saying you can often discern their motive. Even if they are unaware of their motive, as is often the case. Which allows you to act more appropriately towards them in the moment. If ones mind is just saying, "Im not listening....la la la..." it is as ineffective as a technique as blind belief.

I absolutely agree with your main point, (which is how I think you intended the whole statement,) that no matter what they are doing or why you have to be the one willing to believe blindly. They arent "making" you do anything. Their lying or innocent mistake is not at fault (which is what I think you meant by "not the issue") if you are not paying attention at all and choose to follow blindly.

But, just so the baby does not go out with the bath water, you can gain useful insight that can help you determine your own course of action if you are willing to watch carefully enough to see what they are actually doing. Innocent mistake or deliberate lie. It can help you determine your appropriate action in the moment.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
We agree on so much.... Do you know what empathy is? Maybe that would explain my zeal.

I do think we agree on much, and I do understand empathy. And I suffer from it as well. However, I also know that suffering is not always objectively "bad." I know that I cannot assume I know what is best for a person. Even if watching them suffer causes me to feel suffering with them.

For example, in my case it was my own suffering that created the circumstance in which I was able to have the spiritual experience. It was my suffering that kicked that door open and allowed me to see things a different way. If someone had "saved" me from my suffering, prevented it, maybe it would have been years more until I woke up. Maybe I never would have. I cant know, I can only say that in my case, my suffering was a blessing in disguise.

That doesnt mean I always walk away from another persons suffering, however. It only means I do not always assume suffering is bad. I accept that I cannot know for certain, and I just try to act according to that intuitive sense. Sometimes I walk away, sometimes I intervene. I know I cannot know for certain "the one right thing to do" and so instead I try to do the right thing for that moment, depending what my intuition tells me.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
We only seem to disagree on my method in this apparent madness. You cant lure people into logic.

We do disagree on the issue of technique. Mostly because I do not think it is logical to assume we can know with certainty what the right thing is for another.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
I find that producing anger in others allows for a more truthfull discussion when it comes to ideals. Its stops people from double wrapping their ego before charging in. How angry should one get when being told they believe lies and are ignorant of reality? If they really know their right what difference would it make?

I would say you should look very carefully at the assumption that anger makes one truthful. I have observed people lie quite readily when angry. "no I am not ...." "I never said...." "I hate you...." when yes they are, yes they did say, and no they dont really hate you.

Anger is a self protective mode of ego. It is a defensive posture. If you want something to pass a barrier or defense, is it logical to make the barrier stronger or higher first?

This is not to say it is never the right way, there could well be cases when it just may work. But if you watch what many people actually do when angry, and how the powers that be use anger to manipulate, you might notice that anger tends to make people less likely to use reason, not more so. More likely to dig their heels into their position, not less so.

Most importantly, I feel, when you are convinced that you must convince some "other" of some thing, does that or does that not contradict the idea of the universe as a fractal or singularity that contains all possible division? If separation is not real, but illusory, why is it not a better technique to work the issue through in yourself rather than focus on "others?" Would not a real change in any one presumed "division" reverberate through the whole?

Obviously, if there is no "other" talking to oneself disguised as an "other" should do no harm. All conversations are the Self talking to itself, in that sense. But how silly would you feel yelling at yourself in mirror? Pointing a finger at your image and screaming "dont you point at me you jerk!" when the pointed finger is reflected back at you? Dont you think if one is going to talk to themself they should at least be aware that is what they are doing? And if they want the mirror image to change, dont you think it would be more effective if they realized they had to change their own actions before the reflection in the mirror could change?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Every castle does indeed take differnt tactics to assault. Over the internet people are happy to meet such a challenge, in person such tactics would be counter productive. Everyone who looks at the world from an individual standpoint comes to places like these already equiped in full riot gear.

How much suffering is required though? wouldnt even you sharing wise words potentialy take away from somones learning experiance, even if you do it o so poilitely? As people who have suffered and learned we do indeed face a paradox.

I choose to not let there be any mistaking my intentions.. i will not dance around the inevitable. We are the final product of an intention that brings the only way to understanding reality for what it is. The only way to move forward.

the shadow self will always be my prey, no one else is doing it. So far it has been very effective even if they will never admit it.

Originally posted by Wertdagf

wouldnt even you sharing wise words potentialy take away from somones learning experiance, even if you do it o so poilitely? As people who have suffered and learned we do indeed face a paradox.

We do face a paradox. And yes, there is always the potential that I could be hindering someone from their own learning. (in the mundane view of reality in any event.)

Originally posted by Wertdagf
the shadow self will always be my prey, no one else is doing it. So far it has been very effective even if they will never admit it.

I take a slightly different approach. I am hunting no one and nothing. I am just talking to my Self in the mirror.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]