Question on OT Law, body piercing, tattoos and homosexuality

I am a homosexual man and I wanted to ask, in all sincerity, why it is that body piercing and tattoos are so widely accepted in the Christian church and yet homosexuality still gets such a bad rap...It seems pretty clear to me that if you are going to use OT law to condemn homosexuality you must also condemn body piercings and tattoos.

Leviticus 19:28 (New King James Version)
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.

My ex-bother-in-law just sent me a post on how homosexuality is a sin and should be condemn. He is covered in tattoos, almost head to toe, I find this hypocritical.

Any thoughts...?

[edit on 7-1-2009 by archetype_one]

Originally posted by archetype_one
Any thoughts...?

Here are my thoughts. It sounds like you're either looking to get back at your brother or seeking a cheering crowd to tell you how right you are that Christians are hypocrits. I'd say ask your brother (if you haven't already) the same question. If he doesn't have an answer, I'd be glad to help. My recommendation would be to talk more about how much you care about your brother instead of broadcasting what you perceive his sins are. I didn't hear him come onto ATS saying "My brother is homosexual, don't you think he's a sinner?"

[edit on 7-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by archetype_one


I have tattoos and when I became a Christian and got saved, I started covering them with band-aides.
My step-Dad offered to get laser removal for me and when I looked again, my biggest one was scabbing up and the color was coming off. This HAD NOT happened before.
So, I took it that God would remove them if He wanted to.
I would never cut myself and get more.

Originally posted by Clearskies
I have tattoos and when I became a Christian and got saved, I started covering them with band-aides.

Quiz time!

1.) What exactly are you saved from?

2.) How do you react when you realize you're sinning?

[edit on 7-1-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by archetype_one
I am a homosexual man and I wanted to ask, in all sincerity, why it is that body piercing and tattoos are so widely accepted in the Christian church and yet homosexuality still gets such a bad rap...It seems pretty clear to me that if you are going to use OT law to condemn homosexuality you must also condemn body piercings and tattoos.

I wasn't aware of that admonition against tattooing, etc, but seeing as your bro-in-law saw fit to enlighten you on the subject of gender and the bible, it only seems fair for you to return the favour. Should make for an interesting dinner conversation.

Fact is, these folks cherry pick the scriptures to back up their particular prejudices (prejudici?). Born-again types will tell you that Christ died to superceed the OT, therefore Leviticus no longer applies. So your in-law is allowed to tattoo, but you can't kanoodle...but because Christ says so now...sort of.

You know, if you can stand the cold, move to Canada. We just don't care as much...

reply to post by archetype_one


I will make Saint4God happy and say that it is because Christians who do that are hypocritical.

And, I will say that he should have actually answered your question if he was going to respond to your thread instead of just throwing a pity party for Christians.

Not ALL Christians are hypocritical though. I know many who do not JUDGE the actions of others, but rather focus instead on the beam in their own eye.

I hope your brother in law doesnt bother you too much. I have had both well meaning and not so well meaning people offer me help that actually hurts, and I know it places you in an uncomfortable position. Just thank him and let him know that you have it under control and really dont need his help that you and the Divine will sort it out without his help. That way if his real motivation is to fight with you about it you diffuse it. And, how can he argue with the assertion that God can handle you on his own?

Good luck.

reply to post by saint4God


Saved from my old sin-nature and living death.


When I realize I've sinned, I repent and ask forgiveness from God.
God gives me Sweet Peace.

...........and you?

Originally posted by Clearskies
Saved from my old sin-nature and living death.

When I realize I've sinned, I repent and ask forgiveness from God.
God gives me Sweet Peace.

...........and you?

I'd say saved from being judged by the Old Law (John 3:16-21, Revelation 20:11-15).

Repenting isn't a word we use often these days, many think it merely means saying "I'm sorry", but isn't the case at all:

"1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life" - www.merriam-webster.com...

So yes, saying sorry is the first step, but to be repentant, it means to turn away from that sin. At the point you'd asked for forgiveness Clearskies, you were forgiven of that sin...there's no need to try to hide or cover it up. God sees all, He knows your heart, and you are forgiven from that very point forward. If a person continues knowingly in sin, then they're not really repentant by the definition of the word itself.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


Yeah, I know, but I didn't want kids and old ladies looking at me and Going.
"What?" Influencing them in a bad way, or me looking like a harlot.
You know?

reply to post by archetype_one


I have piercings and tattoos and I do not believe they are widely accepted in the church. I am a Christian too Its one of [many] reasons why I wont attend church because I refuse to be negatively judged on that - by people who are far from perfect themselves.





[edit on 1/7/2009 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by archetype_one
Any thoughts...?

Here are my thoughts. It sounds like you're either looking to get back at your brother or seeking a cheering crowd to tell you how right you are that Christians are hypocrits. I'd say ask your brother (if you haven't already) the same question. If he doesn't have an answer, I'd be glad to help. My recommendation would be to talk more about how much you care about your brother instead of broadcasting what you perceive his sins are. I didn't hear him come onto ATS saying "My brother is homosexual, don't you think he's a sinner?"

[edit on 7-1-2009 by saint4God]

Both your assumptions about my intent are wrong. I was not attacking anyone - I clearly stated that I was seeking sincere feedback, not cheering crowds (from either side of the fence) and I didn't say my ex-brother-in-law was a sinner, I believe the OT law was abolished through Christ, so IMO his tattoos are A-OK!

My intent is to understand by what means certain Christians justify the application of certain Biblical laws and not others. I simply mentioned the incident with my brother-in-law as an example.

If I were attacking him, or his reputation, there are better way than ATS!

I am not seeking to argue - I'm asking for meaningful, and thoughtful input on the subject.


[edit on 7-1-2009 by archetype_one]

Originally posted by Clearskies
Yeah, I know, but I didn't want kids and old ladies looking at me and Going.
"What?" Influencing them in a bad way, or me looking like a harlot.
You know?

Yep, you want to set a good example and be a rolemodel. But, if a person refuses you because of your sins in the past and not who you are now, then they've already missed a very large part of Christ's message to mankind anyway.

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." - Matthew 6:14-15

"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." - from John 8:11

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by saint4God

 

Yeah, I know, but I didn't want kids and old ladies looking at me and Going.
"What?" Influencing them in a bad way, or me looking like a harlot.
You know?

You should NEVER feel that way!!
First off...tattoos do not equal a harlot...

Second, I have a daughter and she sat with me when I got my latest tattoo. I find nothing wrong with kids seeing tattoos. It is art IMO. If she wants one as an adult, so be it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with kids seeing and being around tattoos. Again, it is art IMO. And she is more well adjusted and behaved them many kids of over religious fanatics I grew up around.

Eh. To each their own.


[edit on 1/7/2009 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Clearskies
Yeah, I know, but I didn't want kids and old ladies looking at me and Going.
"What?" Influencing them in a bad way, or me looking like a harlot.
You know?

Yep, you want to set a good example and be a rolemodel.

Ah yes, because certainly nobody who has tattoos and piercings can set a good example

I think before anyone tells me (or anyone else) what is and isnt a role model and good example, they need to make sure their life is perfect

Originally posted by archetype_one
Both your assumptions about my intent are wrong. I was not attacking anyone - I clearly stated that I was seeking sincere feedback, not cheering crowds (from either side of the fence) and I didn't say my ex-brother-in-law was a sinner,

You asked for my thoughts, and my feedback was sincere.

Originally posted by archetype_one
I believe the OT law was abolished through Christ, so IMO his tattoos are A-OK!

Then why post the topic? Why is he being hypocritical if it isn't a sin?

Originally posted by archetype_one
My intent is to understand by what means certain Christians justify the application of certain Biblical laws and not others. I simply mentioned the incident with my brother-in-law as an example.

If I were attacking him, or his reputation, there are better way than ATS!

Everyone on this thread knows your brother-in-law is Christian and has tatoos. So either people reading it are to think he's a hypocrite and/or sinner. You even lead the forum with the declaration "I find this hypocritical" so it seems like your mind is made up on the matter and there's no further options other than agree or argue. Sounds like an offensive to me. Just wish your brother-in-law were here to testify for himself instead of having other people do it for him.

Originally posted by archetype_one
I am not seeking to argue - I'm asking for meaningful, and thoughtful input on the subject.

I'm doing my best and seek progression in a discussion.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by archetype_one

My intent is to understand by what means certain Christians justify the application of certain Biblical laws and not others. I simply mentioned the incident with my brother-in-law as an example.

Back to the topic.

I believe because it is human nature to abide by or break the rules (laws) that you like or dislike. They hypocracy in the church is a HUGE turn off for me. And I grew up in the church, my father being a pastor.

reply to post by greeneyedleo

I didn't say tattoos=harlot.
What I mean is the older generation,(where I'm from anyway) used to see women with tattoos as 'loose' or 'fast'. Also, if they wore pants at church.
Only sailors, marines or army men normally had them. This was 15 years ago.
Things have changed a little in the backwoods churches.
At any rate, NOONE TOLD ME they were wrong, but in my reading of the Old Testament, I saw that God forbade it as 'heathenish'.
I would never do it again.
No cutting on me, if I can help it!

I also had to drink(a lot) to get them.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by Clearskies]

If you don't believe in Christianity, just point out his hypocrisy in judging you, when his lord taught that one should not judge, and when he is also disobeying the bible. Or perhaps you'd do better to just smile and tell him you love him whatever his beliefs are.

If you do believe, then you must also believe you are made in God's image, and that God is good. Therefore you do not need a book to tell you what God is like, you can look into your own heart to see what goodness is.

Do you believe the ultimate in goodness would hate you responsibly sharing physical love with a man you are drawn to?
There is no record in the Bible of God expressing disapproval toward David and Jonathan.

In my experience God can be a loving friend, who never judges you, who will help you in anything you want that is good, and who will always love and understand you perfectly.

Treat people with care and respect.
Try to do less harm and more good.
And love whoever you love with your whole heart.

Originally posted by Clearskies
What I mean is the older generation,(where I'm from anyway) used to see women with tattoos as 'loose' or 'fast'. Also, if they wore pants at church.
Only sailors, marines or army men normally had them. This was 15 years ago.

And this was 15 years ago? I just have to ask: Where in the world are you from?

Originally posted by archetype_one
I am a homosexual man and I wanted to ask, in all sincerity, why it is that body piercing and tattoos are so widely accepted in the Christian church and yet homosexuality still gets such a bad rap...It seems pretty clear to me that if you are going to use OT law to condemn homosexuality you must also condemn body piercings and tattoos.

Leviticus 19:28 (New King James Version)
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.

My ex-bother-in-law just sent me a post on how homosexuality is a sin and should be condemn. He is covered in tattoos, almost head to toe, I find this hypocritical.

Any thoughts...?

[edit on 7-1-2009 by archetype_one]

One (the law that forbids homosexuality) is for all mankind to recognize with the difference between mankind and beast.. being able to control desires and make rational choices concerning nature. It is to recognize that we can be led by reason rather than our inclinations.

The other one is dealing with the law of seperation from the world.. a sign of holiness both inside and outside the body.

The first is applicable to all of mankind (though no one can force you) in that we should all see the beauty in making rational choices over following inclinations.

The 2nd is applicable to those who wish to take part of the covenant with G.d.

Hope that helps!! (oh.. one more point... here are some that you could use for your brother in law since the tattoo one really isn't applicable and is merely splitting hairs without a purpose)

Does he worship jesus as G.d? He has broken the first of the universal laws.

Is he assured that the animals that he has eaten have been killed in a way that was not cruel? If not, then considering the way they slaughter animals for food these days , chances are he has broken this universal law for mankind. (this is again, to seperate *us* from the beasts).

.... Homosexuality *is* found in the animal kingdom naturally but it makes little sense other than to satisfy a desire... beast or rational man? I am not calling you a beast.. PLEASE don't walk away assuming that. I am just telling you WHY this was a law of G.d. It was NOT to condemn you to hell or to be used as a way to make another superior over you.. your brother in law has broken the spirit of the law by trying to make you feel shame when he should have explained to you that the law was merely a way to separate ourselves as rational from the beasts who simply work off desires.


Edited to add: In Judaism, the original religion from which christianity tried to build itself, we do not believe that one is going to hell for homosexuality. It is your choice if you want to be led by your brain or your inclinations. Christianity is wrong in that they have condemned homosexuals to hell... they have created hell in their minds and being co creators with G.d, they could have created their own destiny. This was not the fault of the Jewish people, G.d, and hell is not the punishment for not obeying the Laws of G.d.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by justamomma]