Why ufological insecurity?

I have noticed that when I have tried to broach considering ALTERNATE explanations of the ufo phenomenon to the "alien" "spaceship" believers, I come up against a -great deal- of -resistance-. Those of you who hate being approached with examining your own staunchness, what is at stake for you. What is it that makes you feel afraid, insecure and hostile. I'm curious. and frankly, you should be too.

I'm not sure what you are accomplishing by alternatives. Alternative explanations for a craft that's that being seen. With the numbers of sightings and the actual circumstances of the sighting, more and more people are learning to call things what they are. Of course there will be mistaken things, but many sightings don't fit those scenarios, and they're not balloons, satellites or birds. Some sightings include psi contact. While impossible to explain fully, you'd know if it was happening. Some sightings involve missing time at the moment, like my brother who was driving truck for my father's farmer's market. He, and his co-partner both saw the ufo dart behind a cloud and emerge a moment later. That moment was a 2 hour missing time episode for both of them, and the truck was 2 hours ahead on the road.

Of course, with sightings others already remember actual experiences. They're not with plasmic gas either.

See what you did? You called it a "craft". You HAVE NO IDEA that it IS a craft.
To quote Bill O'Rilley, "Thats what I'm talkin about!"

I've recalled being an abductee...of sorts. So, some of the other explanations I've already heard over and over. Here at ATS the mention of Mk ultra or an alleged continuation of Nazi experiments has been suggested as well.

That still doesn't conclude mind control 'wasn't' initiated by ETs or 'others' and their technologies either. Whatever it is, is. Don't think you're the first one here to do this.

Here at least, I've seen enough to realize it takes much more than arguing and debate to reveal the truth other than the apparent futility....which seems to be part of 'the process' anyway.

edit to add:
Obviously, some people see what they want to believe they see either way. Eventually they may change their minds if they study enough such as here on this site. Many sightings need to be categorized. Saying there's no such things as alien craft or their technology being used here on earth is narrow minded also.......from my point of view.



[edit on 3-1-2009 by aleon1018]

Because many people can't get their heads around the fact that the universe we experience is less concrete than it appears.

Many UFO researchers are searching scientific / solid proof; their minds are too closed to other possibilities.

Thank you, thank you, lightchild. You are right on. I am trying to get people to see that, like you said, this universe is much less solid than it appears. This means than ANYTHING is possible. It is even possible that some of these ufo "alien" "spacecraft" could have, (especially if they are eons old in advancement,) 'technologically' maneuvered their way out of 3-D, to overcome the space and time and dimensional barriers.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by simonecharisse]

Originally posted by lightchild
Many UFO researchers are searching scientific / solid proof; their minds are too closed to other possibilities.

Since proof is only achieved through tangible evidence and demonstration, what other method are you going to use besides the scientific, to assert this proof?

I think you are confusing research and theories.

Theories are analysis, which offer (hopefully) well founded opinions (a framework) on the inner workings of something.

Theories, as you might know, can be proven false. Research without validity, is not proof, it is opinion.

reply to post by simonecharisse

I have noticed that when I have tried to broach considering ALTERNATE explanations of the ufo phenomenon to the "alien" "spaceship" believers, I come up against a -great deal- of -resistance-. Those of you who hate being approached with examining your own staunchness, what is at stake for you. What is it that makes you feel afraid, insecure and hostile. I'm curious. and frankly, you should be too.

ALTERNATE assumes that there is a mainstream viewpoint. I haven't seen any consensus of opinion about UFOs that comes even close to forming a mainstream view. Some people regard the term 'UFO' as being in interchangeable with 'alien.' Others don't. I prefer to try an establish that the UFO cannot be identified in the first place. If it remains unidentified; the story stops there. Anything else is speculation but speculation can be fun.

You could define your 'alternative' explanation and maybe the 'afraid, insecure and hostile' ATS folk would be more likely to respond?

From what I could always see, from my thirty years of following the ufo subject, THERE IS a mainstream view. Just watch 'UFOHunters' with Bill Birnes, or go to ANY UFO Conference, take your pick, 'The X-Conference', the Crash Retrieval Conference in Las vegas, MUFON Symposiums, and State Conferences, The Roswell festival, the Shag Harbor alien festival, and numerous numerous other alien festivals, 'UFO meetups, ufo get-togethers in general, and THEN there's all those ufo books that come out, and come out, .. etc.,
Negative reactions I have referred to, re. alternative explanations, were not (necessarily) here on ATS, I was speaking in general, per my experiences.
I DO need to simmer down, though, you are right. Jaques Vallee, who I admire, and John Mack would not approach others in an unclear and unprofessional manner.
Point taken and noted.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by simonecharisse]

Originally posted by simonecharisse
From what I could always see, from my thirty years of following the ufo subject, THERE IS a mainstream view. Just watch 'UFOHunters' with Bill Birnes

Bill Birnes is hardly regarded by (serious) researchers, as a critically thinking person. On that very same show, from time to time he spouts out the most outrageous claims without any evidence whatsoever. And one doesn’t even need to mention The Day After Roswell, which he co-authored with Corso.

However, and still using UFO Hunters as an example, the other two ‘sidekicks’ on that show do seem to take a more prudent and scientific approach to the cases and people’s testimony. Not all is lost on that show. But make no mistake about it, UFO Hunters is not UFO research, it is entertainment.

or go to ANY UFO Conference, take your pick, 'The X-Conference', the Crash Retrieval Conference in Las vegas, MUFON Symposiums, and State Conferences, The Roswell festival, the Shag Harbor alien festival, and numerous numerous other alien festivals, 'UFO meetups, ufo get-togethers in general, and THEN there's all those ufo books that come out, and come out, .. etc.,

You lump together many examples that don’t really even deserve to be compared.

Undoubtedly there are many people, even so called researchers, and organizations behind certain events and conferences, that jump to conclusions with really no factual basis to do so; but there are many who don’t.

I would say that, for the most part, MUFON does a decent job simply compiling the data and doing the scientific analysis of it. One good and recent example would be the MUFON analysis of the Stephenville radar data.


I would like, as Kandinsky mentions, if you could share with us on what exactly consist these alternative explanations you talk about, and why should we take them seriously, for the sake of discussion.

Well not only Jacques Vallee's books, such as 'Messengers Of Deception', can you glean where I'm now coming from, but, I had been in touch with -OLD- time ufologist Jerome Clark, who showed me some things he wrote, to present to the scientists of the SSE (Society For Scientific Exploration) per their invitation to him. This treatise presented accounts of people in the 19th century, who would refer to "aeronauts". We all have heard about the "airship" waves, but I HAD NO IDEA, that there were BIZARRE testimonies of these things landing like modern UFOs, crews coming out, going back in, people going with them, coming back; and then Clark goes even -further- back in earlier times, to present the accounts of people who endured abductions, from this world, into the next--dimension--I guess, basically into the world of these gnome-like beings, called "fairyfolk".
It's almost as if there is this mysterious intelligence that likes to play games with us, to mock us, to appear in the costumes of our times. And many ufo-looking things, as they appear -today- , were painted in religious paintings of Mary and Jesus, and 'greys' appear in ancient aboriginal cave illustrations.
This is kind of hard for me to explain, but I am not trying to bullypulpit about how I have found the better explanation than the ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis), I am trying to broadcast that, let us not be banging the drum of demand for---- disclosure of the extraterrestrials and their Bob Lazar-like saucer shuttles, so that we can know about free energy and anti-gravity, ----until; we know more about what flying saucer-type of ufos really are. Ya know, those truly anomalous and otherworldly appearing ones, that cause people to think of alien invasions when they see them. My own personal views are that ufos seem more like ghostly phenomenon than 'First Contact'. I had been trying to get others to consider this, but I'm probably not very good at doing so.
Now, I allowed a misunderstanding to occur, re. my views toward scientific investigation. Scientific empirical results are a MUST within ufological research, because scientific investigation is applied to non-ufo paranormal research, such as ghosthunting, (for example the infrared cameras) and I am a billion percent FOR being scientific toward the pursuit of the unknown.
I am -extremely impressed- with James Carrion. Did you see his Mexico investigation? It made me think of (I think Shakespere's) saying about "not suffering fools gladly".

Originally posted by simonecharisse
I have noticed that when I have tried to broach considering ALTERNATE explanations of the ufo phenomenon to the "alien" "spaceship" believers, I come up against a -great deal- of -resistance-. Those of you who hate being approached with examining your own staunchness, what is at stake for you. What is it that makes you feel afraid, insecure and hostile. I'm curious. and frankly, you should be too.

Well I don't have UFOLogical insecurity, however I do believe that there is "something" out there that isn' t us!, that is why I started this (failed?) thread here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Assumptions on Aliens we need to discuss"

Whether we have actually been seeing anything extraterrestial is another question.

< Continuing from my previous post P L E A S E R E A D this link I'm going to provide, because Jacques Vallee describes where I'm coming from, better than I do.
By the way, I don't mean to sound anti-disclosure, it's-just-that, scientific investigation if it's honest, in ernest, and with resources behind it, can disclose to us a better idea about what ufos are.
Here's my aforementioned link.

Well, this forum won't let me put it, so try this. Bring up google and put Jacques Vallee Daily Grail. Then see, Messengers Of Deception.

Originally posted by simonecharisse
I am not trying to bullypulpit about how I have found the better explanation than the ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis), I am trying to broadcast that, let us not be banging the drum of demand for---- disclosure of the extraterrestrials and their Bob Lazar-like saucer shuttles, so that we can know about free energy and anti-gravity, ----until; we know more about what flying saucer-type of ufos really are.

OK, I think I’m finally understanding what exactly you mean. I understand your point, and I’m completely on your side in regards to “let’s find out what UFOs really are”.

I also believe that’s really what most UFO researchers want, certainly, what the serious, and worthy of the title, researchers want. I’m also aware that certain ‘researchers’ would like for things to be kept in sort of a non-factual/non-tangible/non-provable way, so they can keep selling books and DVDs of their theories. The only way to fight this behavior is to keep the approach to the UFO subject as scientifically sound as possible.

This is one of the reasons, I think, the ETH is also the most widely regarded hypothesis on the nature and origin of UFOs.

Even though lately science has been showing a lot of promise in regards to the possibility of extra-dimensions and even multiple Universes, I would point out that, among all these possibilities that are tentatively explanations for the UFO phenomena, the only one that has some observable evidence is the ETH. And why do I say this? Because we exist. We are the proof, the observable evidence, that intelligent life exists in the Universe.

Does that mean life must exist elsewhere in the Universe? No, but it is certainly an indication that it could and undoubtedly increases the odds. Unfortunately, at the time we do not have sufficient evidence to suggest that other dimensions or other Universes exist, or even that intelligent life could exist/live there.

Please note that I’m not rejecting the possibilities. No! In fact, I believe the answer to the UFO phenomena is most likely more complex and exotic than just alien beings. But I have to recognize that the ETH, from a strictly scientific perspective, holds the most water in light of what we currently know.

Ya know, those truly anomalous and otherworldly appearing ones, that cause people to think of alien invasions when they see them. My own personal views are that ufos seem more like ghostly phenomenon than 'First Contact'.

I know what you are talking about, and I’m sure everyone who has studied the field has inevitable come across cases and accounts of things that don’t seem to fit into the alien scenario.

I would argue that it is impossible for us to imagine ― assuming alien beings are visiting us ― just how advanced they, and their technology, really are. Could their existence and/or technology be so advanced that it could leave the impression that they aren’t even the physical world? Could their intentions, motives and agenda be so ‘alien’ that we can’t even grasp them? It’s a possibility.

Another possibility is that they really aren’t from the physical world, or perhaps, this physical world.

Also, what exactly does ‘ghostly’ mean? And what is the nature of ‘ghostly’ phenomena? I think you have to recognize that we simply just don’t know. For all I know, they could even be related. Or they could be entirely different and unrelated phenomena.

This is why I believe (emphasis in believe again) that there could be many sources, nature and origins for what people perceive as UFO and/or UFO related phenomena.

Perhaps one man’s ghost is another man’s grey. Perhaps what is a spaceship to some, is a spiritual vessel or something to that effect, to someone else. Or perhaps that one person really saw a ghost, and the other one really saw an alien.

Bottom line is that I think we are dealing with phenomena of various natures, and I think it would be foolish to say “it must something else besides aliens because not all the cases fit that explanation”.

We simply don’t know, and if someone says they do know for sure, they are either lying and/or deluded, or they are selling something.

I am -extremely impressed- with James Carrion. Did you see his Mexico investigation? It made me think of (I think Shakespere's) saying about "not suffering fools gladly".

You are talking about the one on the Discovery Channel show, UFOs Over Earth, right? Yes, I did. I also enjoyed his position very much. And on the other episodes as well.

Originally posted by Davood
Well I don't have UFOLogical insecurity, however I do believe that there is "something" out there that isn' t us!, that is why I started this (failed?) thread here.

Don’t feel bad Davood, most people don’t really like to question their perception of things, and that is certainly true in regards to the UFO subject as well.

Another reason is that, there are so many threads, the grand majority a rehash of things already discussed, Youtube videos, outlandish/unfounded theories etc, that some threads get lost amongst the bunk.

I have come to grips that the people who enjoy an intelligent discussion, a serious and rational debate of these matters, get tired of the subject from time to time. It’s impossible not to get tired in light of how much bunk, misinformation and disinformation is out there.

Yes, there are a lot of different ufo phenomenon. And the ufo researcher's task has been made much much more difficult, due to the giant black triangles, at least some of which I am convinced are the military's.
Jerome Clark was trying to describe to me, a theory he came up with that goes something like, that there is the ufo phenomenon that might be alien, but some kind of parasitical phenomenon attaches to it, affecting the witnesses perception and experience with the primary phenomenon. I'm sure if Jerry was in this chat forum, he could make it sound more sense-making than me. Anyway, if some outer observers had been popping in on folks throughout all the ages, and this parasitical trickster as well, it could account for aeronauts and gnomes and faries. the more I think and write along these lines, it makes me feel like I'm sinking into an Alice-In-Wonderland mirror.
You SURE are right, that this phenomenon is more comlex and exotic than we have any idea, I'll bet.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by simonecharisse]