I belive now

After reading countless reports of near death experiences, I now belive in God.

Even the athiest experiences have encountered God or Hell.

I'm not trying to sway your views, just wanted to post a link for anyone who is interested in reading these reports.

www.nderf.org

I used to be Agnositc (i belived its not possible to know untill it happens.) Now i have faith in Jesus and God.

Well then I'm happy for you. You've came to this decision and it seems you believe. My problem is that any man or woman can say what they want about God/Jesus and it comes from them and their experience. I guess I'm needing an experience of my own, or a conversation etc...

I mean what makes these certain people better than me or you that they get to see God or to hear him. Near Death experiences could be a dream experience or something your brain will do with lack of oxygen etc... But I'm truly happy for you and your decision and I wish you the best in all you do in life.

God bless man. And I hope your spirit continues to grow. Just remember couple of things. The bible is the word of God. You would know Jesus without it. 2 you need to get baptize (fully under water). And mostly you need a personal relationship with God. That means you pray and talk to God. And you let God talk to you. Which means you read the bible. God bless Ill pray tonight that he'll continue to watch for you.

Question, even if you believe those near death experiences are some how attributed to god, why do you feel it must be the abrahamic god of the bible?

Out of all the faiths out there in the world, you chose Christianity because? - It would appear your will to believe in god was inevitable, it only took a slight conviction of something as mundane as near death experiences (that of which can be explained rationally as hallucinations) to eventually come to the irrational and illogical conclusion of god.

If you sincerely were at some stage an agnostic you’d need more then near death claims as proof of god. I’m sorry but all you’ve really done is illustrate how week minded you are


[edit on 3-1-2009 by andre18]

Who of us would not appreciate finding evidence that helps us gain some insight into the big questions in life? Surely we all have these questions, at least in the back of our minds. Is there a purpose or a meaning to conscious existence? Am I more than a material object? Is life just one big guessing game, or maybe there's no meaning beyond doing what feels good?

Some people, at some point in their lives come across something that totally challenges their fairly fixed view of the world. Some people don't want to give it much thought. Some people prefer to mock someone who is open-minded enough to reevaluate their presuppositions, especially if they eventually declare that their outlook has changed.

I have to say at this point that I applaud Solarskye's reaction: 'I'm not at that point myself, but I wish you all the best...'

Additionally, it is widely-held that the only acceptable POV is 'you can't ever be sure about the big questions, and if you are you are to be pitied'. Such an attitude gives those who espouse it a feeling of superiority. But those of us who have found answers simply smile calmly. We have nothing to boast about. Noone works the answers out through superior intellect or anything else that deserves merit. The answers have come to us through no merit of our own. Rather they are a gift from God himself to those who simply seek and ask in sincerity. And frankly the process normally begins even before that - when something unexpectedly crosses our path that opens our heart and our mind to things previously unknown.

I grew up with no knowledge of God, for instance. It was only when someone introduced me to the New Testament that I first began to have an inkling of why some people believe deeply. It is not my purpose to discuss the specifics at length here, although it might be of interest to some to see that the New Testament is a historical record of great value.

Hardcoremusiclover has come a different way, at least partly, but our disparate paths are converging. He's starting a journey to which nothing else compares: the life of faith. He has put himself on the line by being so open, and he has shared a site that might stimulate debate and interest. He's thereby earned my respect, and doubtless that of many others, such as slymattb.

I too have gained a great deal by looking into and discussing issues relating to NDEs. While my faith in no way rests on them I believe they do serve as a wake-up call to all of us - 'what lies beyond' is often what is furthest from our minds. Could it be that in seeking to satisfy our every physical need we have lost touch with the search for the sublime, the eternal; the answer to who we really are, why we are who we are, and where we are headed?

Quo vadis?



As a supplement, here are a couple of thought-provoking threads that offered good opportunities to explore the issues that surround NDEs:

Near-death experiences are real

Ponderings/questions about life after death

Originally posted by andre18
Question, even if you believe those near death experiences are some how attributed to god, why do you feel it must be the abrahamic god of the bible?

Thats a very good question-why not Zeus,Odin,Rangi,Akna,Ja, Aesculapius or Osiris?

Or of course none of them may be right.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12

Thats a very good question-why not Zeus,Odin,Rangi,Akna,Ja, Aesculapius or Osiris?

Yes, I agree.

I've never taken much stock (believed EVERYTHING) in the reports that people make after their "N.D.E.".

Lazarus had nothing to report to us (via Scripture). And Lazarus was clearly DEAD:
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Most (if not ALL) of the "Near Death Experience" folks seem to report something that doesn't quite jibe with Scripture. I just don't take much (if any) truth from them. I think they can be freely ignored when they don't report the same thing the Bible says.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


As you, I don't believe in NDE's because your spirit can't leave your body seeing that you must transfigure to become spirit. I do believe this experience may be a number of things.

1. Satan as an "angel of light" as the scripture puts it, influencing this person to be a false-doctrine following christian... which fit's into satan's plan to decieve the world.

2. Unconcious but seeing visions in this state in which God communicated with this person, thus, a legitimate claim but being wrongly called NDE.

3. God allowed this "vision" or "dream" to happen in order to use this person in spreading the word of God.

One thing is for sure, this OP needs to be sure he/she is researching the correct doctrine of the bible and I can promise it's neither catholic or protestant. The Old Testament must be used as doctrine as much as the New Testament unlike some christians who ONLY refer to the New Testament for their beliefs.

reply to post by hardcoremusiclover


To the OP, please research carefully and don't follow some church that is trying to influence you. Read the bible from Genesis to Revelation for yourself... using a reference bible. NOT A STUDY BIBLE which uses opinion as much as fact. Use a center-column reference bible and learn how to use that for a study guide. The bible defines itself. Also, I recommend the New King James Version because it reads in modern english but is on point with the original KJV with many corrections in translation errors. Also, get a bible dictionary. I recommend the "Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words" which can be bought for about 20 or 30 bucks. It will give you the hebrew or greek words and meanings to many words in the bible which are normally mistranslated like the word "hell" which doesn't mean a pit of fire in which souls burn for eternity... If you have questions, I can give you some insight, though PreTribGuy doesn't agree with a lick of what I believe. I want to say congrats on your decision to turn to the Lord and His Son. God bless you.

Its a great shame there is not a scepticism vs religion forum on this site to balance out all the conjecture,speculation,heresay,rumour and guesswork masquerading as fact.

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation:- Just wondering how the OP reconciles their new non-agnostic belief (based Not on the bible or personal experience but on reading about NDE!!!) with this biblical scripture concerning "the state of the dead".]Ecc 9:5 KJV blueletterbible For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Personal Disclosure:- Promotion of Ignorance will get you NOWHERE! Especially when references the OP relies on DON'T back them up!!!

Oh and well done PreTribGuy, a star for your post on Lazarus!


[edit on 4-1-2009 by OmegaLogos]

reply to post by OmegaLogos

Just wondering how the OP reconciles their new non-agnostic belief (based Not on the bible or personal experience but on reading about NDE!!!) with this biblical scripture concerning "the state of the dead".] Ecc 9:5 KJV blueletterbible. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I would like to reply to this point as it is very significant.

This verse is a favourite of pseudo-Christian sects/cults who use it to confuse people who are ignorant of Scripture. (I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it does anger me when I see Scripture being misused.) Were it to mean what it appears to mean at first glance it would contradict the entire, clear teaching of the Old and New Testaments.

In order to spread their unbiblical doctrines these groups select verses out of context and use them without a grasp of the purpose of the book as a whole. In this case the context shows that here, as in countless other places, their teaching is the exact opposite of what God has said.

The book of Ecclesiastes is a type of discourse. In it the writer (generally believed to be Solomon) speaks about how people try to find fulfillment in material pleasures. He himself had all that a man could ever desire in this sense:. But with God's help he sought through wisdom to discover whether this really brought ultimate satisfaction.

I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under Heaven...

Eccl. 1:13

This is wisdom literature (a specific biblical genre), much of it written in poetic form. It has great depth and requires careful study.

What the careful reader recognizes very early on is that on the surface there appears to be frequent, blatant self-contradiction, and this continues throughout the discourse. This ought to alert the reader that statements cannot be simply taken at face value; the writer intends the reader to reflect on his statements until his underlying message comes home.

There is a key to grasping what the writer is getting at. It is that some of his statements portray the perspective of a believer in the God who reveals Himself through Scripture, while others portray the perspective of a person whose outlook is determined by what their senses can fathom.

Not surprisingly the author does not simply leave the reader guessing, although continued study of the book does make it quite plain which statements reflect which attitude. The phrase to look out for is 'under the sun'. When the writer uses this phrase he is speaking from the perspective of a non-believer and speaking of things that perplex those who are unaware of what God has revealed. I invite the honest enquirer to read the book of Ecclesiastes and see for themselves that this is, in fact, the case.

Now we return to the verse quoted in support of the unbiblical notion that those who are dead are not conscious. Here it is in context:

For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing.
And they have no more reward.
For the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything under the sun.

Eccl. 9:5&6

This is the perspective of a worldly person whose attitude to life is determined by the belief that there is no life beyond the grave.

According to the teaching of the entire Bible such an attitude is foolish, and it leads people away from spiritual realities.

Not yet convinced? Let's look in more depth at the context. Here are the verses that follow:

Go, eat your bread with joy,
And drink your wine with a merry heart;
For God has already accepted your works.
Let your garments always be white,
And let your head lack no oil.

Live joyfully with your wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in your labour which you perform under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

Those who know the Bible will instantly recognize the affinity of this passage with a well-known passage in the New Testament which equates such an attitude with not believing the biblical teaching that all men and women will one day rise from the dead and stand before their Maker, with being deceived and with having no knowledge of God:

If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" Do not be deceived: evil company corrupts good habits. Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15:32b-34

This was written to those who claimed to be believers, but whose failure to believe what the Bible teaches about life after death equated to shameful, sinful lack of knowledge of God.

During Jesus' earthly ministry he often encountered people with the same attitude: the Sadducees.

For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection...

Acts 23:8

The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said...

[they proceed with a trick question about several men dying after all having had the same wife - and asking who will be her husband in the resurrection - trying to ridicule the idea that life after death is biblical and is real]

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are greatly mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God... But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken of to you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Gospel of Matthew 22:23-24a,29-32

This unequivocally lays to rest the false teaching that people do not continue their conscious existence after death. The very basis of Jesus' argument is that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive in God's presence when He spoke to Moses several hundreds years after they had all died! (And noone can argue this was only after the resurrection of the dead, which has still not taken place!)

There are so many other Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, that say the same that we could quote them ad infinitum. But a few examples will do.

"I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold..."

Job 19:25-27 (OT, written thousands of years before Christ, but speaking of Christ, the Redeemer)

One of the two criminals crucified with Christ said:

"Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Gospel of Luke 23:42-43

We walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:7&8

And as if any further proof were needed, we can add one more passage of Christ's teaching: The Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. Its very purpose was to warn those who had no idea of the reality of the danger of not sincerely preparing for the life to come that they were in for a nightmarish surprise, whereas those who have humbled themselves before God, accepted his self-revelation in Christ and become his true disciples will upon death be taken immediately into God's presence.

The whole passage is found in the Gospel of Luke 16:19-31.

The whole parable reads like a near-death experience in which the one who was not prepared begs to be allowed to go back and warn his family of the reality:

...Then he [the unrepentant rich man] said, "I beg you therefore, father [NB - he is addressing Abraham who is already enjoying God's presence], that you would send him [Lazarus, the forgiven sinner]to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment." Abraham said to him. "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent." But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be pursuaded though one rise from the dead."

Gospel of Luke 16:27-31

Christ here demonstrates that after death people are alive, conscious, and either tormented by their guilt before God, and separated from him - or have previously found forgiveness and are enjoying His presence.

We must all chose: do we believe and follow Christ and the teaching of the entire Bible, or do we go the opposite way and deny the reality of continued, conscious existence beyond the grave?

Originally posted by pause4thought
We must all chose: do we believe and follow Christ and the teaching of the entire Bible, or do we go the opposite way and deny the reality of continued, conscious existence beyond the grave?

I think in salesman terminology that is called an inverted tie down.

Heres an interesting defintion:

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Or as one of America's finest authors Mark Twain put it:

You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons,
sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky,
people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive
stories, and you say that WE are the ones that need help?
Mark Twain

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by pause4thought


I don't think the Ecclesiastes verse is meant to be taken as a view of a carnal man, but truth. Of course there is life after death, but it takes place at the resurrection, which has not yet taken place....

1CORINTHIANS 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

The passage above shows the dead are still in their graves, just as Peter made mention of King David in Acts 2. Until then Genesis says what happens to the dead....

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return.

When we are dead, we do indeed know not a thing, but our next waking moment will be the resurrection. Now 2Corinthians 5:8 (We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord), simply is talking about those redeemed from the earth to Christ in the resurrection to immortal life, since at that time you no longer have a physical body, and the physical lusts and sins etc that come with it. This is what Paul is talking about, and what he would rather have. He doesn't say that the moment you die you are with Christ, even though, from your own personal perspective, it will seem like that, even if you had been dead for thousands of years.

reply to post by doctorex

When we are dead, we do indeed know not a thing, but our next waking moment will be the resurrection.

I think you are talking about a type of "soul sleep"? (Which I happen to agree with!)

It is interesting (to me) how many times the word "sleep" or "sleeping" is used in the NT to describe those who...are asleep right now.

Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping:

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

I dont think we should question why he believes in God and Christ now. The fact is he does. And if you take the NDE away from him, he might not believe in God and Christ. Let him believe until he can grow in the spirit. Not all of us believe in God and Christ on good standing.

This thread has me quite baffled. Most people after having NDEs do describe entities and stuff, but usually always hear a voice calling them toward a "light". Maybe the people that believe in God or something have a preconceived idea of what the afterlife is like. Therefore, in their experience they'll experience God, Heaven or Hell. I guess that is only if the person with beliefs in Christianity (or the sceptics that have always been aware of the concepts) percieve "the end of their life" to be like this.

I'd say it probably is different for everyone. With the OOBEs I have had I do feel that there is more to life when we perish in this life, but when I had them, I didn't come across any entities or voices, just the physical world around me. I guess that's probably a good thing, I probably would have freaked out otherwise. Still though, my point is that reading about NDEs shouldn't really affirm your belief of the Christian God. If you do feel inclined to want to feel other sensations of life outside of your routne, try having an OOBE or something.

Why do I recommend you try to have an OOBE? Well, I guess it's the nearest thing to an NDE, and you don't have to almost die. There are a lot of guides on how you can go about it, and if you feel up to giving it a go, you could read some of the guides there. I'm not that great at actually getting into that state, but I think I might have a fair idea. U2U me if you want my version of how to get to this state. I'm not exactly the OOBE professonal, but I can lend you some tips if you'd like.

Sound's like paganism of the sort. Meditation to speak to nature? That's what it sounds like. Not bashing you but the OP probably being agnostic... had a notion of the christian/jewish God but wasn't 100% sure weather to believe it or not. Now that he had some sort of revelation/NED, he is convinced that this God does exist. You go on talking to trees and rocks and the wind, and let the OP talk to the Abrahamic God. To each his own.

reply to post by doctorex


You can lay in the grave for hundreds/thousands of years but I feel if you do die then you will instantaneously awake not even realizing you've been asleep or dead in the grave. Does that make sense? Only the living sense time but the dead will not. Thanks everyone for all the thoughts and discussion about God and the bible. I'm always willing to read and learn but I still keep " belief " out of it until I know for sure.

I'm still happy for the OP and his decision to discuss this with us. It's an amazing world with an amazing abundance's of life. The stars, planets and all the rest keep me wondering how?, why? and where if anywhere are we going?

I feel that since the "dead know nothing" while they are dead, the next known memory for a person will be at the resurrection. That's why the theif was told "today you will live with me in paradise" because when the man died the next moment to be remembered would be his resurrection. The bible doesn't give a notion that a person lives on outside of their physical body after death. We are told that the body turns to spirit at the first resurrection. We are told that even Jesus remained in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights before resurrecting and that He never even went to heaven until 40 days later. It's called "transfiguration" and it's a transformation from body to spirit and the only human to experience this to date is Jesus Christ. The bible says so.