Brief history lesson for the ongoing current events happening in Gaza

I find in interesting that nobody decided to do real research to find out where all this started.The current events going on right now are a result
of separating people from their land, or making people live by rules that
other groups insist they have to follow.



Who are the people that truly have the right to the land?

The Canaanites were the first ones living there in the bronze age, so
who are this Canaanites?
en.wikipedia.org...

Canaanite Period (Bronze Age) 3300–1200 BCE
The use of the term Canaanite can be confusing. Archaeologists use it to refer to a long period of time (the entire Bronze Age) and a wide geographical region (ranging from modern Israel to the entire Levant). Thus all of the people in this time and place can be called Canaanites.Philistia,The Philistines(known today as Palestinians) were people who lived in Canaan along the Mediterranean coast at the time the Israelites sought to occupy the land. They were centered in five cities called the Philistine Pentapolis: Ashkelon Ashdod Ekron Gath and Gaza ... and their presence is mentioned in the Bible and Ancient Egyptian texts.[1]

So we see that the true owners are the Palestinian people and that migratory people wanted to occupy the land just like today.
I ask today, what right does a group a people have to decide over the land of others and further more to build a state there.




[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

what right does a group a people have to decide over the land of others and further more to build a state there.

The UN decided they could build a state there and many countries recognized their right to have a state there.

I don't believe the Philistines and Palestinians are the same people. But I will leave that part to somebody else to debate.

Myth #1—The Canaanites were Arabs who already occupied the Land when Jews wandered into Canaan, and that the Jews remained an extreme minority even after the Land was later called Palestine. But their supreme authority, the Qu’ran, proves otherwise.

“We [Allah] settled the Israelites in a secure land [Land of Israel] and provided them with good things.” Qur’an, Sura 10:93, “Jonah”

Myth# 2—The Palestinians are the Philistines that conquered the Land from Israel. Look “Philistines” up in your Bible Dictionary. They temporarily occupied five coastal cities in the south of Israel—a minute portion of the Land. The Philistines sailed from Crete, an isle off of Greece. They did not originate from the Arabian Peninsula. The Philistines were not Arabs.

The Qur’an proves God blessed King David with sovereignty for Israel and David slew the Philistine Goliath and routed the Philistines.

www.bible411.com...

[edit on 1-1-2009 by jam321]

reply to post by pepsi78


Well first, how many countries today have not been created by war and the strong over the weak? That is the nature of the human race.

If you dig deeper you will see that the Brits and French divided up Syria and Iraq into what they are today, and no one is screaming these lands need to be put back as they were. Iraq should be three countries as example, but it is not.

They also took the land where Jordan and Israel is now and created Muslin and Jewish Palestinian states. Jordan is the Muslin state for the Palestinians, and so why are there muslins in a small strip of land in the middle of the Jewish Palestine state? Also, to suggest 8 by 4 mile plot of land that would not be big enough for a summer house for the Saudi royal family be considered a country is ridiculous. Jordan should have taken these people in decades ago, and Egypt should have had given them legitimacy for the decades they controlled the area, but neither did a thing, and we have the situation we have today.

Lines have been drawn a long time ago, and Israel is as legit as any other country, including America.

The UN decided they could build a state there and many countries recognized their right to have a state there.

Well who gives the right for other people to decide what happens to someone's land.Palestinians do not have to reconise Israel.It's their right since in their vision it's an Ilegal state.

I don't believe the Philistines and Palestinians are the same people. But I will leave that part to somebody else to debate.

Well Well Well, the sourced says it all.You give me bias links, I'm sorry but you will have to do better than that.Please find a credible source to provide like the source I have provided for example.
You gave me www.bible411.com... well how nice of you.

reply to post by pepsi78


And what current Palestinian population has in common with those people thousands of years ago? Religion - nope. Traditions - nope. Same location - nope. Only name that is used since Britain created British province of Palestine(20th century by the way).During Turkish rule (until their WW1 loss) it was called diferently.
Even Zionism is older be several decades then term Palestinians as refered to Arabic national movement in British province of Palestine.
So even brief history lesson should be correct one.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Who are the people that truly have the right to the land?

[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

In short: the ones with the bigger weapons.

Truly now, inherital claims only count for so much.

The problem in the case of Israel is that this state was "given" to them because of guilt (over the Evian Conference and the persecution of the Jews)and backroom Zionist politics.

What can you do against that? Build home made rockets perhaps...

If someone stronger claims your land and kicks you out there is not much you can do is there? Especially if "the world" approves.

Noone but a few wanted the Jews in their country so most must leaders must have sighed in relief that they gotten their holy land.

Evian Conference: noone wanted to save the Jews

Well first, how many countries today have not been created by war and the strong over the weak? That is the nature of the human race.

On the contrary, most of the countries created from wars have gain their lands back, and the people inhabiting the land are the right owners.

Further more if you sustain such things it would only be natural for the Palestinians to wage war so they could gain back the land since war makes countries.It would be a noble cause don't you think? for some people to wage war and win back their land, but no one wants them to have their land back.

If you dig deeper you will see that the Brits and French divided up Syria and Iraq into what they are today, and no one is screaming these lands need to be put back as they were.

Because the two countries agreed, but what happens when the true owner of the land does not agree?

Lines have been drawn a long time ago, and Israel is as legit as any other country, including America.

No it's not, North American indians may have complied and it is their choise, but the Palestinians do not have to, it's their right to be there and to do what ever they want with the land.

The matter of the fact is that no one has to agree or reconise Israel, it's not an obligation, as for the sake of good morals if the world was spining like that and since they are willing to die for what is theirs then it would only be in the good spirit to give the people the land back.

This thread was not created to provide laws and so on, it was created to just show who the land lord is and why this war is going on.

It's going on because a bunch of people are frustrated that someone else
is just grabing the land from them.

The state of Israel is a fraud.



[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by pepsi78

it would only be natural for the Palestinians to wage war so they could gain back the land since war makes countries

And what land is that exactly? I am not talking about person X loosing his home/land. I am talking about national identity type of land. Why there was no drive for Palestinian independent entity when it was part of Byzantine? Arab Caliphate? Turkish/Egyptian rule? Even British one. Not to mention parts that Jordan and Egypt occupied after 1948 war.
The simple fact is that Palestinian national movement is direct result of Jewish national movement. It did not exist before and it did not exist where it was not under Israeli occupation. And if someone thinks that rockets will get lands back - it is very very silly. By the way, i also can assure you that if by some magic Israel disappears tomorrow there still will not be independent Palestine - neighbors will eat it very fast. And population will not mind - since it is all about fighting Jews and not about creating their own home. Only if one will look from that perspective rockets could be justified, since it does not help creation of Palestinian independent entity in any way (the opposite actually) but it allows for continuation of the conflict so it will not die out.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by pepsi78

 

And what current Palestinian population has in common with those people thousands of years ago? Religion - nope. Traditions - nope. Same location - nope. Only name that is used since Britain created British province of Palestine(20th century by the way).During Turkish rule (until their WW1 loss) it was called diferently.
Even Zionism is older be several decades then term Palestinians as refered to Arabic national movement in British province of Palestine.
So even brief history lesson should be correct one.

It was the same people as today.

The Philistines(known today as Palestinians) were people who lived in Canaan along the Mediterranean coast at the time the Israelites sought to occupy the land.

en.wikipedia.org...

The name "Palestine" comes, via Greek and Latin, from the Philistines; see History of Palestine

There is no tradition left because they changed religion.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by pepsi78

There were 5 Philistine cities - Ashdod, Ashkelon,Ekron,Gaza,Gath. You say it was inhabited constantly by same group of individuals?
A, ok. Then following has nothing to do with truth then?

When this vast seaport, the last of the Philistine cities to hold out against Nebuchadnezzar finally fell in 604 BC, burnt and destroyed and its people taken into exile, the Philistine era was over.

Or this?

The Mamluk dynasty came into power in Egypt in 1250 and the ancient and medieval history of Ashkelon was brought to an end in 1270, when the Mamluk sultan Baybars ordered the citadel and harbour at the site to be destroyed. As a result of this destruction, the site was abandoned by its inhabitants and fell into disuse.

Or this?
en.wikipedia.org...

In 950 BCE Ashdod was destroyed during Pharaoh Siamun's conquest of the region. The city was not rebuilt until at least 815 BCE. Around 715 BCE, it was conquered by Sargon II,[6] who destroyed the city and exiled its residents. Jewish inhabitants of Ashdod were resettled in Media after their failed uprising attempt against Assyrian dominance.

en.wikipedia.org...

After the Siege of Tyre in 332 BCE, Alexander the Great besieged Gaza, the last city to resist his conquest. Gaza, led by a eunuch named Batis and defended by Arab mercenaries, withstood the siege for two months, until it was overcome by storm. The defenders, most local elements, fought to death, and the women and children were taken captive. The city was resettled by neighboring Bedouins.[11]

So out of 5 cities , 3 at least once had total change of population since Philistine times. As for Ekron/Gath - i do not know but i assume that wind of history probably blew over them too.
Oh, by the way:

Gaza was besieged and captured by 'Amr ibn al-'As a Muslim in 637 AD.[1] During the siege, the city's Jewish community fought alongside the Byzantine garrison

en.wikipedia.org...
Please, remind me how many Jews live in Gaza now?
And a last point - Philistines captured Canaanite lands. So basically it means that Canaanites are true owners of region?

None of what you posted contradict the fact that it's the land of the Palestinian people and that they were the first there, and none of what you show provides evidence that the palestinians did not remain in those areas, it just shows that some cities were distroied and people were pushed aside, it does not state that the whole population of inhabitants were exiled out of what today is that region, they were exiled from cities and that is a whole diferent aspect.


physics.technion.ac.il...

ALEXANDER THE GREAT added Palestine to his empire. In 323 BC, PTOLEMY I of Egypt took Palestine into his kingdom.

What you are showing actualy is showing that there were Palestinians living there and not the other way around.

Since when the jews came back after WW2 Palestinians were there then
there is nothing to disprove that Palestinians were not living there.


In fact under the Byzantine rule.

Byzantines rename the entire geographic area as Palaestina ("Palestine")
The Land of Palestine became part of the Eastern Roman Empire ("Byzantium") after the division of the Roman Empire into east and west (a fitful process that was not finalized until 395 CE).

Here are the facts for you in great colored imaging.


The matter of the fact is that palestinians were always there and the land was refered as Palestine by the romans the bizantines until the modern of Israel state was built.

The Jews belong there too, that does not mean they can push everyone aside and have their state.Todays Palestinians do not have to go along with it, thank god people are waking up and seeing it.People like me who are Christian and people like Jews in Iran and other parts of the world and in Israel are growing in numbers and know that the state of Israel is a fraud.

I bet the Jews and the Palestinians can build a new state ,erase Israel and live in peace.It's the only solution, other solutions will just cause problems.




[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by pepsi78


Or one civilization will conquer the other. All that's left of the Native American struggle is in history books, and one day the palestinian struggle shall have the fate. Sorry.

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by pepsi78

 

Or one civilization will conquer the other. All that's left of the Native American struggle is in history books, and one day the palestinian struggle shall have the fate. Sorry.

Yes I feel sorry for the North American indians, but they accepted it.The whole royal hipocracy is still runing United States, people just don't see it, and it runs Israel too.Evil powers are at work and are playing with crayions drawing borders and then calling it legal.It's still the royality making the calls, Europe rules over all with it's royal blod line.United States is just a pupet for them, but they act humble and let the pupets take the fall and bad publicity while they remain sielent and talk behind closed dors.Israel in just an agenda to cause problems in ME so they can gain control of the whole region.They don't care about the Jews.
The dumb are getting dumber while the other side gets to play comand and conquer.



[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

I'm probably wrong or misinformed but I have heard that the Caananites are the descendants of Cain. Knowing who Cain was is important to the intentions of the Caananites. Also who do you think the descendants of the Adamites are? I don't know but what I do know is that there are disproporsionate numbers of people dying because of an ancient hatred. Maybe an impartial monitoring force would help restore peace. I believe it worked when Canadians were sent to Haiti but I don't think Canada should be involved any more than it should have been involved in Afghanistan. I don't want to see the end of everything ( life as we know it)in my time and neither do the considerable amount of people I know personally.

GOD Gave Canaan To Israel

This after the Exodus From Slavery In Egypt

Originally posted by atoms.2008

GOD Gave Canaan To Israel

This after the Exodus From Slavery In Egypt

That won't cut it for everyone since not everyone has the same religion.
Best we keep religion out of this thread.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

Palestinians are the newest of all the peoples on the face of the Earth, and began to exist in a single day by a kind of supernatural phenomenon that is unique in the whole history of mankind, as it is witnessed by Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist that acknowledged the lie he was fighting for and the truth he was fighting against:

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

www.imninalu.net...

From a former PLO terrorist himself. Of course, I am sure this will be a bias source as well. I can even predict that all my sources will be declared bias.

It's one thing for a guy to become palestinian over night and another to deny and discharge history.None of those articles provide any cover since history has been writen.Look at the picture above and at the name of the land before Israel was there.The work of arhiologists, historians and so on seems to colide when this one guy comes in and states that they are all brand new.If United States citizens were natives but it would still be an emigrant land it would be crazy for me to say that all the people living in that country are brand new.


Here is your source.
www.imninalu.net...

Jerusalem
Jerusalem Webring Homepage - This webring invites whoever believes that Yerushalaym
-Jerusalem- is and must ever be One undivided city under Israeli sovereignity, and that she is the Capital city of the State of Israel. Any website may join, no matter if related to Jerusalem or Israel or not; joining this ring implies full agreement with such statement. Shalom aleichem! Pray for the peace of Jerusalem!

Shalom...
History made by a guy with a web site.A jewish guy that is.


and then he talks about ...and gives some links

I have willingly hosted some friends' websites:

Jew Girl -- A Secret Prayer - by He'elem: A literary collection of prose/poetry depicting the life of Jerusha (character), from birth to womanhood. Inspired by and dedicated to the memory and life of Ofrah Haza.

That is just fantastic.


I can open a web site and write in whatever I want, I can twist history, I can do what ever the hell I want with it, but one thing is for sure, while I do that people will notice that I'm from that group that I am favoring.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by pepsi78]

Here is your hero.
Walid Shoebat: ‘Ex-terrorist’ exposed as fraud

dawudwalid.wordpress.com...

The paper described Shoebat as a self-proclaimed “former Islamic terrorist” who said that Islam was a “satanic cult” and who told the crowd how he eventually accepted Jesus into his heart.

However, Shoebat’s claim to have bombed Bank Leumi in Bethlehem is rejected by members of his family who still live in the area, and Bank Leumi says it has no record of such an attack ever taking place.

archives2008.ghazali.net...

When he was 16, says Walid Shoebat, he was recruited by a PLO operative by the name of Mahmoud al-Mughrabi to carry out an attack on a branch of Bank Leumi in Bethlehem.

At six in the evening he was supposed to detonate a bomb in the doorway of the bank. But when he saw a group of Arab children playing nearby, he says, his conscience was pricked and he threw the bomb onto the roof of the bank instead, where it exploded causing no fatalities.

This is the story that Shoebat, who converted from Islam to Christianity in 1993 and has lived in the United States since the late 1970s, has told on tours around the US and Europe since 9/11.

However, Shoebat's claim to have bombed Bank Leumi in Bethlehem is rejected by members of his family who still live in the area, and Bank Leumi says it has no record of such an attack ever taking place.

His relatives, members of the Shoebat family, are mystified by the notion of "Walid Shoebat" being an assumed name. And the Walid Shoebat Foundation's working process is less than transparent, with Shoebat's claim that it is registered as a charity in the state of Pennsylvania being denied by the Pennsylvania State Attorney's Office.

Shoebat's claim to have been a terrorist rests on his account of the purported bombing of Bank Leumi. But after checking its files, the bank said it had no record of an attack on its Bethlehem branch anywhere in the relevant 1977-79 period.

Shoebat told The Jerusalem Post that this could be because the bank building was robustly protected with steel and that the attack may have caused little damage.

Asked whether word of the bombing made the news at the time, he said, "I don't know. I didn't read the papers because I was in hiding for the next three days." (In 2004, he had told Britain's Sunday Telegraph: "I was terribly relieved when I heard on the news later that evening that no one had been hurt or killed by my bomb.")

Shoebat could not immediately recall the year, or even the time of year, of the purported bombing when talking to the Post by phone from the US. After wavering, he finally settled for the summer of 1977.

The Sunday Telegraph described Shoebat as a man who "for much of his life... was eager to commit acts of terrorism for the sake of his soul and the Palestinian cause."

In that interview he described how he and his peers were indoctrinated as children "to believe that the fires of hell were an ever-present reality. We were all terrified of burning in hell when we died... The teachers told us that the only way we could certainly avoid that fate was to die in a martyrdom operation - to die for Islam."

But an uncle and a cousin of Shoebat, who still live in Beit Sahur in the Bethlehem area, where Shoebat grew up, said that Shoebat's education was rather mild ideologically, and that religion did not play a dominant role.

The uncle, interviewed at his home, said he remembered little about his nephew, because Walid left for America at the age of 16, and because his American mother always kept a distance from the rest of the family. The uncle and his wife both said firmly that there was no attack on Bank Leumi.

When questioned on this discrepancy, Shoebat was adamant that he did carry out such a bombing, and that his relatives deny it to cover up for another cousin who was with him during the attack and still lives in Bethlehem.

Shoebat evinced no particular surprise that his family could be tracked down simply by asking Beit Sahur locals where they lived, even though his Internet site claims that his is an assumed name……

The guy is a fraud.

Originally posted by pepsi78
On the contrary, most of the countries created from wars have gain their lands back, and the people inhabiting the land are the right owners.

Most of north, south, and Central America? You think a surveyor drew the lines in Europe, go back far enough and wars made them. Come to resent times…North/south Korea, if Japan/Germany won how would the world map look? If Russia had its way and had a war with Europe/America how would the world map look? If Iran/Iraq had its way how would the Middle East look today?

Further more if you sustain such things it would only be natural for the Palestinians to wage war so they could gain back the land since war makes countries.It would be a noble cause don't you think? for some people to wage war and win back their land, but no one wants them to have their land back.

Well first, most of the Middle East was nomads hence the reason the Brits and French needed to draw lines, and those countries had little say in what lines were drawn, whether they agreed or disagreed. Jordan and Israel were not created by war but by the stronger power dictating what will be. (I did say war or the strong over the weak)

Sure if the Palestinians feel that way, but then don't complain if Israel wipes them off the map, as a stronger nation could, does, did, will throughout our human history. It just seems every country in the world but Israel is not questioned about their legit right to exist. To suggest the 2 million in the Gaza Strip have the right as a nation when Jordan is their nation as history has dictated, and as most of the Middle East denies Israel’s right to be a nation as all the other Muslin nations are not challenged too is hypocritical to say the least.

Because the two countries agreed, but what happens when the true owner of the land does not agree?

Agree or disagree they had no choice...

No it's not, North American indians may have complied and it is their choise, but the Palestinians do not have to, it's their right to be there and to do what ever they want with the land.

They had no choice..they lost...Egypt, Syria and Jordan lost...once again no choice.

They were nomads and had no nation or borders. This is bull crap to say they have a right to be a nation, or are the true owner of a plot of land and so have all said rights…under what law..BTW. I agree they are screwed for Jordan, Syria, and Egypt have all refused to help them in any way when they are as much part of those countries’ people as anyone in those countries, and Iran just wants to use them as their proxy cannon fodder in a PR stunt against Israel.

So what do we do with them? It seems they do not even want to help themselves. As I said lines are drawn, and to think they would be handed the keys over 5 million Jews and their countries assets is not going to happen.

The matter of the fact is that no one has to agree or reconise Israel, it's not an obligation, as for the sake of good morals if the world was spining like that and since they are willing to die for what is theirs then it would only be in the good spirit to give the people the land back.

Wow, "no one" is a lot of countries...as I said...If...anyone...sees...Syria...Iraq...and most importantly Jordan as countries then Israel is a country.... enough said on that.

BTW what land are you talking about?

This thread was not created to provide laws and so on, it was created to just show who the land lord is and why this war is going on.

It's going on because a bunch of people are frustrated that someone else
is just grabing the land from them.

They are frustrated because they have no home, and the Muslin countries all around them do not want them to have a home. They are nomads with no place to wander and no place to go and Israel is stuck holding the responsibility on their fate when they want to do nothing for themselves and no one else wants to either.

Who is grabbing what land?

The state of Israel is a fraud.

Ok, I guess you run out of ideas. I guess 5 million jews are a fraud..what do we do with them?

Should we reset everything over there back into the Ottman Empire and then give the Jews Egypt since that is where they came from? Jews been there a long time too you know...



[edit on 1-1-2009 by Xtrozero]