Kit Talk, Civilian, Military or Hybrid

Ok when it comes down to selecting kit and equipment systems do you folks have any preferences that sway your decision making processes.

I personally hate the civilian dressed as John Rambo effect.

For example I prefer the low profile look so my clothing is nearly always civilian kit such as jeans, civvy cargos, plain coloured fleeces and waterproofs ( though usually in green or tan), but where military equipment is clearly better suited I go with the military kit, such as footwear. Nearly all of my EDC and BOB footwear is at least mil spec or mil issue, IE my EDC shoes are Magnum Elite Spider 3.0s in black.

My Rucksacks are always in civilian colours from mainstream suppliers again for the low profile effect, but I do have an elasticated waterproof cover in DPM to go over my rucksack when out in ther boonies. I'll wear mil spec or police grade belts simply because they are better quality and better able to carry pouches. I like mil spec compasses because its far more asccurate navigating in 6400 mils than 360 degrees, Daft things like watch straps I buy mil spec ones because they are more comfortable and durable than civvie straps. YET I buy civvilian camping cookers because they are more efficient than hexamine cookers.

So would any of you folks like to go though in depth your kit choices and the reason for selecting them so others can benefit from your experiences.
Kit revues would also be appreciated. Can we keep guns out of this thread though as they normally overwhelm all other issues and tend to ruin a good thread.

Whats your fav kit and why?

In a similar vain, I tend to avoid military issue gear in terms of clothing. But you really cant beat some of the military issued gear like knives, rucksacks and hammocks. All tried and tested for years - so they must have something going for them.

Like you - I cant imagine a fully camo soldier with a wealth of gear obviously strapped to themselves would easily blend in.

Incidently, I just baught something called 'the bush cooker'. It's basically a glorified Hobo Stove. With good reason! It's deadly light and compact, can burn anything from wood to liquid fuels and can get really hot. I had a pot of 900ml water boiling in around 10 minutes on a cold, wet and windy day.
www.backpackinglight.co.uk/product398.asp


I do enjoy the web tex surviva pure water filter canteen. I eagerly awaited the day I could fill up a canteen from 99.9% of all water sources, and literally drink straight from the canteen.

Not only is it clean, but you dont get any of the 'bits' and it tastes 'like standard tap water'. Highly recommended along with some WP pills and water boiling methods in mind. Those three bits of knowledge will take up barely any space in your bag, and will keep you hydrated for well over a few years.
web-tex.co.uk...

I like this thread.. I'll post more when I have some time on me hands

Bigmoose

reply to post by bigmoose


Excellent post, exactly the sort of information we need.
NR



Mod Note: Excessive Quoting – Please Review This Link

[edit on Fri Jan 2 2009 by Jbird]

You guys might want to check out 5.11 Tactical, they have clothes that look civilian but are very versatile.
Another shop with good stuff (including 5.11) is www.entrygear.com.

I hope I could help.

Most of the things in my kit are civilian. Not only for the blend in aspect, but also for comfort and utility. Military stuff tends to be more durable but less comfortable IMO. I think now days they make just about anything you can wear in a realtree or mossyoak design if camo is what you are looking for. Were I in a bug out situation, I would probably be wearing blue jeans for the initial bugout, but once in the boonies I'd change out to camo clothes to better blend in with my environment.

As far as stoves go, I have an 11 oz coffee can in my kit. It is cut so that I can use it as a small stove. I store things in the can that can be easily crushed. That is how I justify the weight of the can. I don't need to carry fuel for something like this either. I guess this would be civilain, but I tend to call it my hobo stove.

Great post. Thanks for making us think.

Spiritowl

Also you might consider getting clothing talor gear..for those days when those nice clothing doesnt quite fit anymore or gets a hole from an adventurous day on the knees looking for stuff or an annoying tree limb that rips through your jacket or shirt.


Cheers!!!!

reply to post by Northern Raider


Kits are tools for uses. The more you have, the better adaptability you have. For outdoor, the military has available a great number of cheap and very well designed items.

Clothing is definatly underthought as a catagory. You cannot blend in walking down the street wearing BDUs. So, having a pair of jeans tucked somewhere is always a good thing. If you decide to pilage, doig so in BDUs will make you a sure target (and you will more than likely be followed back to your safe spot).

I hate Rambo's attire. It makes no sense... No shirt allows for scars and abrasions as you pass through the woods, and a red headband screams "Shoot me here!"

I mainly stick with what I know. I was in the military for more years then not. How ever military gear is not the be all end all, so these days I tend to do a hybrid. We had a similar discussion early on in the survival forums here on ATS. You may want to browse it for some pretty good sources.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I try to get a 'civvie' equivalent or better than a military one if at all possible. There are obviously some items that cannot beat the military ones but in general, the civilian items are far more superior, though tend to be more costly.

So in answer, I suppose I do a hybrid with more emphasis on the civilian end of the market. I do though, go for 'country colours' and not DPM, which I try to avoid. I am not saying I dont have any DPM gear, I just dont wear or carry it - purchased many years ago. Nothing worse than a 40 something running around looking like John Rambo IMO.

The only things I tend to wear/carry that would be recognised as military are British Army Lightweights, British Army water Bottle and French Army Combat Boots - Everything else I wear/carry is civilian in origin.

most of my gear is civilian simply for the matter that it works better for me. I generally will wear bdu pants in either tan or black. Polyester blend will stay warm and dry quick. No cammies for me.

My edc bag is a kfaru E&E which is military compliant but custom made. Coyote brown doesn't stand out too much. I do use a surplus poncho for durability as well as versatility. It may be replaced soon with a version made from sillite if I can find one that fits my need.

The problem is that only the high end civilian kit will hold up to the bush. However this kit is generally smaller and lighter than its military counterpart. If you spend as much time outside as I do you will come to appreciate that. The real question is can you depend on your equipment in a life or death situation?

Military surplus is dead on dependable and durable but generally large and bulky. Until recently most of the special forces used and modified civilian kit for many of their uses due to the weight and size issue. Now many civvy outfits make gear special for the military. Arc'teryx, kelty and others.

I carry gear made by SOG, Chris Reeves Knives, Sierra Designs, Whisperlite, Nalgene and other Kifaru,civvy suppliersIt is generally pricierthan some but for me it is worth the weight and size. It too has similar durability.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

I’ve got a mix of civilian and military kit, all of my clothes are civilian brands and tend to be olive, black or grey so I don’t stick out like a sore thumb in the countryside, I usually go for pants which are light, windproof and quick drying with plenty of pockets.
I’ve also got a few pairs of pants with camo pattern on them and have noticed if you wear a light coloured top it takes away the “military look” and people don’t really notice them, you could then change into something a bit better Camouflaged when you're out of dodge.

My boots are a civilian brand but their getting a bit worn so I was gonna go for a military brand this time round to see how they compare, I’ve used a few different kinds (Timberland and Merrel) and they seem to last a year before the soles start to wear down and the stitching comes away.

My rucksack is a black military issue Maxpedition. I haven’t given it a serious workout like my other bags but I have taken it out on a few long walks and its very light and comfortable, it’s only 50L but I don’t plan on carrying a tonne of gear, however, if I did want to carry more gear it has plenty of straps to attach additional pouches, these pouches could also be attached to my belt if needed.

When I was choosing my equipment I didn’t really look at civilian or military in particular, I chose things that would work best for me personally, my stove is civilian because it beats a hexi hands down, I chose mess tins over a billy can set because all the extra pots and pans are unnecessary and take up precious space and weight.

My sleeping bag is a military brand I think (Snugpak), but I chose that for its size, weight and performance, the same goes for my water filter, I wanted one which was light, didn’t take up space and could filter plenty of water in a short amount of time.

As for knives, I’m not sure what brands count as military issue I’ll probably have a mixture of both (Opinel, Boker, Gerber, Muela), I usually look at the knives Carbon, Chromium etc content when deciding as well as size and sheath and price.

Hope this helps people, don’t get stuck to one or the other unless that’s what works for you. Performance and versatility are the factors I consider when choosing kit that could potentially save you and your families life.

The thing with military issue equipment is that it is generally made by the lowest bidder, and is very often a compromise between quality and weight. This trade-off occurs in civilian items too.

Take sleeping bags for example. Down-filled bags are warm when dry and do not take up much space or weight, however they are useless when wet and take ages to dry. Bags filled with synthetic fibres are just as warm and stay warm when wet, however they are considerably bulkier and heavier.

With regards to clothing, I haven't worn anything DPM since becoming a civilian. In a pre-SHTF situation it actually attracts attention. I tend to go for neutral colours, olive green and grey mainly. Black stands out at night unless you are in really miserable conditions. In terms of brands I have found that Helly Hansen, Jack Wolfskin, Buffalo all very good for cold weather gear. 5.11 also gets a nod for its robust all-weather gear. As a general rule I have found that clothing and equipment designed with mountaineering in mind is very reliable, due to the nature of the lifestyle and the importance of reliability.

Footwear, I work in a desert environment with annual temperature variations from -30C to +50C give or take. I normally wear Timberlands which I have found to be really hard-wearing despite taking some horrendous abuse including the extremes of temperature, being dragged through hard, rocky ground and being covered in oil and diesel. The only problem is that they do tend to stand out in temperate Western Europe. On the easier days I wear a lighter walking shoe by Hi-Tec of the kind you would find in any camping store in the UK.

Without waffling on endlessly about various brands and names, I can recommend Cotswold Outdoor, they have a website here, and they have shops throughout the UK. They have a massive range of kit, books and the staff are helpful and knowledgeable without being pestering salesmen types that you get in places like Currys.

I did my homework long before ever purchasing my first piece of gear/kit. Mine is mostly civilian, but some of it the military uses also, like Camelbak.
What I did is chose the best I could afford for the money I had at the time, and did my research before hand, both on and off the internet.
Just an FYI though, cotton kills. Synthetic fabrics are lighter and dry faster when they get wet. Cotton promotes hypothermia, drys slowly once it gets wet and isn't a good choice for your overall clothing choices in a SHTF situation.
Another FYI, neither a synthetic bag nor a down bag insulates when wet- however a synthetic bag will insualte better when *damp*. A synthetic bag usually dries out faster than down, but a knowledgeable person knows how to dry out their down bag if they own one. Too, someone who owns a down bag usually has a way of keeping said bag dry. A simple trash bag or 2, or what's known as a "drysak" will work to keep your down gear dry. Plan ahead.

I do agree though, running around, looking like Rambo isn't going to be the way to go. The more anonymous one looks, the better one is going to fare, I think. The idea is to blend in as much as possible, to not draw any extra attention to oneself.

Happy Holidays Everyone!
Soul Sista

PS Great Thread by the way!

Awesome thread. Although I live in a warm climate, I always maintain my full dress kit in the trunk. This has been assembled over many years, and lends itself to satifying most situations with minimal modifications. Please keep in mind that in a survival/operational situation, each component of a kit has a specific job. While there are as many tastes as there are people, keep in mind that there are only a limited number of situations and potential problems that one encounters in hostile environs. Individuals do not have the luxury of support lines and airdrops,and should therefore have a limited kit that has the widest range of capabilities considering variables:
tempreature reange from 0-120 degrees
rapid dryin and ease of cleaning
durability
non reflective texture
does not draw attention
easy to remove/don
provide storage for essrntial equipment
conceal equipment when necessary
yet fits closely enough to not snag
relatively fire resistant
some adjustability for bartering
few markings ,

1- Don't laugh- Calvin Klein ribbed boxer briefs ( cotton/ synthetic mix only. Not one or the other)- there is just no better. ribbed boxer briefs last longer than any other. Material blen dries fast after hand wash, wicks moisture, and doesnt chafe or begin to stink from chemical reaction until a week in the bush.

2-Wrangler Brand or Jynco brand jeans, with a diamond shaped piece of material reinforcing the crotch- Both brands use thick yet supple cotton which doesn't restrict movement. Jyncos have extra deep/wide pockets for things like binosand machetes.additionally, the legs are straight or semi-flared to allow you to remove the pants without removing your shoes.

3- The thickest,most expensive a-type shirt available.preferably the yoke type staps-this is going to keep friction to a minimum, provide extra padding for sacks, vests, and bandoliers, while not allowing them to rub your colar bones raw.

4- Highest quality t- shirt available. I prefer a very tight fitting black t-shirt. In the event of dusk till dawn recon and scouting , where not all gear is taken with , you don't want to be caught at sunup in a white t. Also essential while wearing your next item

5- Under Armor/ Nike brand thermal fit breathable shirt ( long sleeved, extra thick- Dark gray is my preference ( doesnt stand out at dusk/dawn, doesnt overheat in sun,easily stainable) these shirts are a little warm in summer, but super warm in winter. The constriction cuts down on muscle fatigue and friction. Unparallelled durability. The only drawback is zero fire resistance.

6-light-dark grey wool hooded sweatshirt- Light colors are easily dyed when rolled in indiginous dirt to match surroundings. No zippers (they break). Highest quality available. the hood may help in disguising. And definitely helps in blocking wind , rain ,sun and airborne debris.

7- two pairs of socks inner wool, outer cotton or synthetic.

8-footwear- bates brand or fort lewis brand "go devil" boots are hands sown the best. Trust me, you do not want army issue boots. Timberland and Sketcher brand shoes are among the most durable footwear available on a budget. Thick soles, lace up, durablecoating. Stitched sole (not glued).as few peices of material as possible. Thick leather only. Laces preferred. Regardless of how comfy they are, you WILL need to buy them a size up and install one to two layers of full sole sports supports . Fells wobbly at first, but adjusts . You'll thank me on that hike from Miami to the Smoky Mountains.

9-Milspec belt. Leather preferably) twoo pronged bugkles last loger and typically dont shift and slide. Especially when supporting oversized/secondhand pants.

10-Ruck- The best Available (black, tan ,or gray only) this thing will be stuffed. Minimize it's visual impact. Check interior for water proof lining. Cushioned, breathable layer nearback, eternal water pocket,chestclip, padded waist strap, badass zipper

No one's laughing at you Anon, you have some good points. However, it is a well known fact now that cotton is not a good fabric to have out on extended or even overnite journeys. Cotton does not behave well when it gets wet. It tends to dry slowly, leaching the heat from your body, creating conditions for hypothermia rather quickly.

Just thought you might want to know that.

Good boots are always a must - your feet are, after all, your foundation. I used to have a pair of Timberland's that I absolutely loved! I lost one though and I miss those boots. I now have a pair of Merrell's that I dearly love. Great, sturdy boots, that are comfortable right out of the box, without breaking one's budget. They also come in wide sizes. (men's and women's) I have a 3/4 height boot of theirs that I find to be perfect for my own needs, and in fact wear them all the time. I got a regular width for daily wear and a wide width for hiking purposes.

I also prefer muted colors for my gear/kit. No sense in advertising to the world just where you are at. Never saw the sense in that. Some of the pack colors these days are absolutely horrid!

For my top layer, I have synthetic long underwear as a base layer, with a long sleeve or short sleeve shirt over that, a 200 weight fleece jacket and a lightweight rain jacket to go over that. If I need anything warmer, I have a nice warm down (waterproofed) jacket to go over the fleece. I also have a warm wool hat with turtle fleece liner and wind/water resistant gloves to round that out. My down jacket has a removable zip off hood and weighs in at less than 2 lbs/1k.(it's black)

On the bottom, I have synthetic long underwear, zip off pants(eliminates the need for shorts seperately), and a pair of lightweight synthetic insulating pants if needed. I wear merino wool sox year round with poly liner sox in 3/4 height Merrell boots. The pants ended up being cheaper than a pair of jeans would normally be-I got them on sale. Lots of pockets too. I do have heavier weight sox for winter type wear and lighter weight sox for summer time wear, but all are merino wool- they work best for me to keep my feet from getting blisters. Every one is different, of course.

I love reading all the responses on gear/kit stuff. Makes me wanna review what I have again, even though I have what I need here. Too blasted cold to hike right now.

Happy New Year's Everyone!
Soul Sista

PS EDIT- Maybe I'll go haunt the military surplus stores this weekend instead...yeah...that sounds like a plan.....heh heh heh....peace everyone!

[edit on 31-12-2008 by SoulSista]

Anyone have suggestions as far as MRE type food for storage?

Brands which are considered good or brands to stay away from?

Obviously, I would hunt for food. But, if you find yourself in a position where you cannot for some reason hunt and or find food, would be good to have a backup. This would be for those of use who have a very remote location to have as a backup.

Sup ppl,
Long time lurker, just thought I'd post a few comments.

As Far as above poser, Good ol MRE's seem to be fine, but can be a bit expensive. The best thing to do is to strip em down, thats where you take out all the stuff and remove all cardboard and packaging and stuff you wont use and repack it down. I used to be able to get 4 mres into the size of one like that. (mostly just main meal and side dish) Also, If youre in cold weather environments, the cold weather MRE is something lots of ppl dont know about, but they are usually white, and have dried food like eggs and more eggs in em. The downside is that you have to use hot water, and I have on more than one occasion been so hungry as to try to just eat it without adding the hotwater, and trust me its not worth it.

As for gear, well, one of these days Ill post some more detail and pics about some of it, but I just seem to have gotten really lucky. I was selected (a couple years ago when I was still in the Corps) to be in some scout skier/ cold weather survival training in bridgeport, ca. My battalion was being used as guinea pigs, and 1 company had normal old gear, 1 had test gear a, and my company has test gear b (a civilian company was aparently trying to sell some new cold weather survival gear to the military and we got the experimental end of that stick, lol)

Anyway, the point to all that is that at the end of it, we all got to keep all our experimental gear, some of which was made just for the test, and Im not sure which elements of which test set made it through, but Ive seen a couple buddies with heavy fleeces that look like the ones we tested.
Anyway, Ive got all kinds of cool gear. My favorite being my snow camo outer suit, a big water resistand and super lightweight upper and lower set of white and grey digi camo that is super big. You put on your rucksack, gear and everything else and it fits over it, we even had a special snow camo cover for our helmets!

Yall wanna hear some more let me know = )

Originally posted by Amaxium
Anyone have suggestions as far as MRE type food for storage?

Brands which are considered good or brands to stay away from?

Obviously, I would hunt for food. But, if you find yourself in a position where you cannot for some reason hunt and or find food, would be good to have a backup. This would be for those of use who have a very remote location to have as a backup.

The succesful propriety brands are as good as any such as mountain warehouse, and mil spec MREs and usually decent quality at decent prices if you can find them. Many mormons buy from selected cannaries you could try asking them whats good and whats not. But whatever you do only buy stuff you actually likr to eat, Thers one muppet I know who bulk purchased a load of Chil Concarne, Madras Beef Currie, Pasta and Ham, and Beef Hotpot, yes ther fool does not like anyone of them.

reply to post by Northern Raider


I found a website that appears to know what they are talking about. They do tell specifically which brands are OK and which ones to stay away from along with reason why deep in this website. The reasons seem legit and and they offer links of where to get the various MRE's.

MRE Info

Hope this helps anyone else out looking for an "emergency" food options when hunting and gathering is not an option.