Hamas Vs. Israel. Who is right?

With all of the events that are unfolding in the recent days there has been a rift of who is in the right in the Hamas-Israel conflict.

The answer is simple. Both sides are wrong.

Both sides are committing murder.

Both sides claim justification in their action.

Both sides give into hatred for the other, to justify taking the lives of innocent people. The 300 people that have died in the past few days were people just like you and me; Sons, Mothers Fathers and Daughters. Does anyone deserve less for being Arab, Jew or otherwise?

Violence leads to more violence. Retaliation turns into escalation.

The end will only come when both sides realize the answer has been inside of each person all along. The ability to love and to forgive. It takes a much stronger person to look a murderer in the face and forgive them, than it is to raise a pistol to their forehead and pull the trigger.

This is my first post on this message board. I am not trying to sway any opinion, just thought I'd share my own...

Bill

The answer is simple!
Israel has more guns so that makes them right.

both sides are clearly wrong

murdering ppl is not excusable with vague blanket statements about the past!

IMO the goal of this war is to make us all so sick of hearing "he started it" over and over, that we either accept their destruction - ie- accept more wars

OR convince us this "national soverignty" thing only creates wars therefore roll out the NWO world govt!

i can see the PTB profiting from either way u take it...

As far as I'm concerned they are both equally guilty. The whole middle east has been behaving like children for decades... possibly centuries. The only reason you hear about the Israel retaliation on the news now is because the muslims protest louder and burn stuff.

Israel is wrong for the reason that they did come in in 1948 and kick the Palestinians out. That's a fact. I would be angry if my land was confiscated for somebody coming in from another country. No matter how Israel likes to spin the reasons why they are entitled to that land they did remove the Palestinians from their homes. More settlements, home demolition, arrests, air strikes, and checkpoints within Palestine states that the Israelis think the Palestinians are second-class citizens.

Palestine is wrong because they made this an ethnic conflict instead of a conflict based around equality. When Palestine retaliated against the Jewish immigrants they quickly made it out to be a free for all against the Jews -any Jew, stacking Arabs against Jews. The original problem -the theft of property- became background noise to an ethnic conflict. Random rocket strikes and suicide bombings against civilians doesn't make for a good argument.

For the time being, each group is so ideologically entrenched in their ways that they deserve one another.

To me, killing people is not the solution to anything, weather it be religious or political, killing people is just plain stupid.

On the other hand there is long history there, but a Tool song comes to mind......


"Monkey's killing monkeys, killing monkeys, over pieces of the ground....silly monkeys give them thumbs they forge a blade and where there's one they're bound to divide it...Right In Two.

Imaginary lines in the sand is all these wars and conflicts are about.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
"Monkey's killing monkeys, killing monkeys, over pieces of the ground....silly monkeys give them thumbs they forge a blade and where there's one they're bound to divide it...Right In Two.

Imaginary lines in the sand is all these wars and conflicts are about.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I do not like this road we travel. The lines between right and wrong have blurred and blended to the point where I can no longer distinguish the two. How can a person stand up for what is right anymore?

This conflict has been raging for quite sometime. However, does anyone else feel like this time around it will not be ending well for anyone?

Bill

Originally posted by BillyumH

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
"Monkey's killing monkeys, killing monkeys, over pieces of the ground....silly monkeys give them thumbs they forge a blade and where there's one they're bound to divide it...Right In Two.

Imaginary lines in the sand is all these wars and conflicts are about.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

I do not like this road we travel. The lines between right and wrong have blurred and blended to the point where I can no longer distinguish the two. How can a person stand up for what is right anymore?

This conflict has been raging for quite sometime. However, does anyone else feel like this time around it will not be ending well for anyone?

Bill

In the reality of things these conflicts have never stopped occurring, really nobody will win, and the end most likely means some form of large scale destruction, whether atomic or humanitarian loss. NOTHING good will come of this, they're damned if they continue and damned if they stop. War is an ugly paradox.

Ever wonder why aliens haven't come down and said hello? It's cause the only thing we've ever been good at is killing eachother and trying to own things that are bigger than our comprehension.



[edit on 12/28/2008 by tothetenthpower]

The idea that killing is never right is naive. If someone comes into my house intent on killing, raping, etc my family then violence is an excellent solution. People make this into an issue of two people killing for ideological reasons, but that totally ignores the bondage the palestinian people are living under now. They are under complete israeli occupation and control. For almost a month now they have been completely cut off from electricity, food, medicine, etc... who would live under these conditions without violence for long? YOU?
This is not two sides fighting for dominance...this is Israel fighting for more land and control, and this is palestine fighting for BASIC SURVIVAL, for food, for medicine, and yes, for self determination. All of gaza and the west bank have armed Israeli soldiers at checkpoints regulating all that palestinians do, even whether they are allowed to live with spouses or not.... WHO among you would willingly live under such conditions, seeing your family and friends slowly dieing of starvation and lack of medicine, and not try to do all you could to change the situation?? In the international arena no one denies that zionism is a racist and nationalist ideology, only here in the US where any criticism of israel is verbotten. They are a living example of the truism "beware lest ye become that which ye hate most". Even the majority of their citizens protest their governments treatment of palestinians, with many of their public speakers and professors comparing palestinian living conditions as reminiscent of the Ghetto's and concentration camps of germany. Dont believe for an instant that the only people killed in palestine are targets...their citizens are abused and murdered by jewish settlers as well as soldiers on a regular basis.

Originally posted by pexx421
The idea that killing is never right is naive. If someone comes into my house intent on killing, raping, etc my family then violence is an excellent solution.

Excellent point. However, if someone came into your home, killed and raped your family and you responded by blowing up their house and family, is it justified?

Many should never suffer for the actions of the few IMHO.

It seems like many are suffering for a childish "they started it" type conflict.

While I am not a religious person, I believe the decisions we make during our time here will stay with us not only throughout our lives but beyond. I would rather die myself than live with the fact that I willingly chose to take away an innocent persons life for ANY reason.

Again, not trying to sway opinions, just voicing my own.

Bill

Valid point, and there are two points of view i would reply to that, neither mine, both theoretical.
First being, if someone came into my or anyones house, raped or murdered their family, wife, children, etc, then it is not uncommon, as a human, to have no values or reason left in life but to seek revenge upon those who did it. Not judging whether its right or wrong, just saying that its average human nature to be deranged and irreperably maddened by such an event, to such a degree that it can usually be somewhat reasonably expected.

Second being, the assumption in your statement is that the crime has been done and these people are lashing out in retaliation. I would put forth the idea that for many people still in palestine, they are trying to lash out BEFORE their family has died, due to actions the israelis are taking that can reasonably be concluded to lead to their deaths, and in that vein, yes, it is reasonable for these people to use force to protect their families, as nothing else so far is shown to have a reasonably fair chance of success.

This demonstrated principle is not only limited to palestine. In columbia, the FARC was criticized for a long time for using force as a method of social change, for fighting for what they believed. The US demanded they put down their weapons and join the political government process if they wanted recognition....which they did. Within 2 years 5000 ex farc government officials were assassinated....which demonstrates what happens in situations where one side is allowed to use force and another is not. Im sure many people could see the message from that period of events, and see how it applies in other situations, ie in other american proped up dictatorships.

Originally posted by BillyumH

Originally posted by pexx421
The idea that killing is never right is naive. If someone comes into my house intent on killing, raping, etc my family then violence is an excellent solution.

Excellent point. However, if someone came into your home, killed and raped your family and you responded by blowing up their house and family, is it justified?

Many should never suffer for the actions of the few IMHO.

It seems like many are suffering for a childish "they started it" type conflict.

While I am not a religious person, I believe the decisions we make during our time here will stay with us not only throughout our lives but beyond. I would rather die myself than live with the fact that I willingly chose to take away an innocent persons life for ANY reason.

Again, not trying to sway opinions, just voicing my own.

Bill

Yes i can understand that point as well, if somebody did come into my house with the intent to kill my first priority would be to stop that person, it would not however be to kill him in return, there are such things as appropriate force, i don't believe my life is worth more than anybody elses. Will i protect that life from other people, YES. And i known the history behind Palestine and Isreal.

But the more us humans attempt to justify conflict, we simply give future generations the same excuse we used to kill and murder millions of people for as i said, imaginary lines drawn in the sand. There needs to be a new way to resolve conflict. Funding both sides of a war as people have been doing, not only with this conflict, but every other major world conflict in the last 200 years, is not the way to solve the problem, your just sweeping it under the rug, hoping the guy with more guns will stop the guy with less guns.

I could have told anybody months ago that the cease-fire would have been broken, but i don't believe it was broken by either of those two countries. other countries *cough* love to stage false flag operations in other countries to fuel they're war driven economy, and i'm not just talking about the Unite States, the UK has been doing it for centuries too.

In any case, i bet you any money we'll see a public debate and politicians will try to get people to support a small march of war to help out whichever country they deem more important.

Why does somebody always have to be "right" in every conflict? Sure dividing between good and bad makes things easier to comprehend, but there is no black and white in the real world. Many conflicts, especially those concerning land and historical disputes have no right and wrong - they just have bloodshed.

I must disagree. As with you, i may not kill to protect my own life...perhaps i will...however i would definitely kill to save my family from rape or torment. Further, as to the use of necessary force, well in todays world of bullets and bombs, force goes from none to total in a fraction of a second, and if you are not willing to go all the way first, your family may be the one to pay the price.

I am a buddhist, and i understand the ideology that violence begets violence and such, the problem is that in our world we have an inherent system now setup, whereby if the better man continues to choose nonviolent conflict resolution, then they are setting the stage for the most greedy and corrupt to take power all over. Our ideology of pacifism and nonviolent protest is allowing our whole world to come into the hands of people who hold nothing but greed and acquisition up as the highest values, while we sit on the side and do nothing but hold on to our ideology.

I would posit that while it is not right to respond to conflict or difficulty or misunderstanding with violence, pacifism needs to take into account the fact that by not standing up to bullying and aggression and conquest with force, we are giving in to those very values anything they want, the world on a platter, as we sit by with our values and let others pay the cost of our inaction.

Maloy, that is not entirely true. Nowadays in most wars there is one side which is clearly the oppressed, which are fighting for their very lives, and the other which is clearly the oppressor, which is fighting to expand control. You can see it in almost any conflict you do a study on, due, most likely, to the fact that few people choose to get into conflict they believe may be difficult or close to even. Most often you can tell who the oppressed is by the massive imbalance of casualties tilted to their side. You can see it easily in instances such as vietnam, Iraq, palestine, sudan, panama, the philipines, many other wars we have had over the last 2 centuries.

Originally posted by maloy
Why does somebody always have to be "right" in every conflict? Sure dividing between good and bad makes things easier to comprehend, but there is no black and white in the real world. Many conflicts, especially those concerning land and historical disputes have no right and wrong - they just have bloodshed.

This always boils down to some old guy on either side stirring the pot of hate and resentment and young people die!






They always die.

You can try and hide behind the old and tired view of an eye for an eye.
But I like many who have watched this situation go on now for over 50 years get tired of this old news

Both sides are acting like children. Color it any color you want it's still Immature and People die!

They are both wrong. If they both launch rockets at each other instead of being adults and working together to stop the violence then they both deserve what they get. It's sad that innocent kids die from an adult dispute but that's war for ya. It seems that dirt is more important than a human life.

P.S. The ones who start the wars are always the ones still alive in the end 99 percent of the time.

[edit on 12/29/2008 by Solarskye]

Ah, so tell me then, what happens when one wants to try discussion, but the other only wants to perpetrate violence? Is the peaceful one supposed to remain peaceful in the face of continued murder? Just stand there and be killed? I understand that this is how the US wants the people it oppresses to behave, but that doesnt mean that THEY have to buy that BS. Our whole system in the US is set up to teach people NOT to defend themselves, NOT to fight for what you believe in, NOT to lift your hands to prevent others from doing wrong....therefore, all the power lies with those who perpetrate the crime, and none with the victim, and that is the way they like it.
Dont give me all this garbage about antisemitism, when you never see a single newscast in the mainstream media depicting the situation that palestinians live in, you must search to find that. You never see anything criticizing Israel in the MSM despite the fact that the majority of the world condemns them, the UN regularly condemns their actions, and the majority of Jews disagree with their own government about how palestine is being handled. You never see Obama, or Bush, or any other american elected official offer anything remotely close to criticism for Israels regular human rights violations, for depriving a whole people of the basic necessities of life. This is blatant anti arabism. Its a media blackout which completely invalidates any form of democracy in our country. Controling information is the same as controlling peoples right to vote. Almost everyone i know who knows anything about the israel palestine conflict started off supporting israel, because the only side you hear in the US is israels, but as they learned more, became interested, and paid attention more, almost all become supporters of palestine as they seek out info of the true situation going on. It is a progress of revelation, and as any of you seek out the truth of the israel palestine conflict, not just what you are spoon fed in the MSM, im sure you will change your ideology to some degree as well.

Well to answer to OP over whose right, technically Hamas is fighting for the greater good. An opressed and under-prilvileged people will always resort to violence to quell that opression. Hamas doesn't have any other playing cards.

They can't plead they're case to the UN, because as far as they're concerned HAMAS is a terrorist organization, same with the US and most other 1st world countries. They only countries that side with the palestinians at the moment are countries like Egypt and Iran, and we all know what our leaders think of them.

Is wrong? Yes. Is it gonna get better? Not before it gets worst. Not to throw religion in this thread's face but even the bible predicts the fall of Israel at some point. War within these 3 or 4 countries is inevitable, and thats what happens when one country decides that it can re-draw the lines in the sand whenever they wish.

reply to post by GreenGlassDoor


you have to learn some history before writting things you dont understand