proposal for "burden of proof"

this subject for this thread was inspired by my travels through the forums here on ATS, i have felt that many of the threads i have read and some i have participated have lacked one crucial element. proof. many of these threads amount to 'i say, you say' or 'prove me wrong' satements which aren't proof of anything really except a lack of understanding of 'burden of proof'.

i propose a 'burden of proof' requirement for those seeking to make a claim. i have already started and i would like some input from others as to what additional requirements should be included ? i am still working on phenomena (god / ghosts etc) and land (dumbs / labs) but need some help in these areas.

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burden of proof.

STOP!!!!!!!!
before you post that youtube video link or picture or your witness testimony...
have you satisfied YOUR burden of proof ?

YES! the burden of proof is on YOU to factually prove your case! the burden is NOT on those that dont believe you to disprove it. extraordinary claims absolutely require extra-ordinary levels of burden of proof.

so how do you satisfy your burden of proof ?

below are the minimum requirements that you must meet and the documentation you must provide for your claim(s) to be considered authentic.

videos / pictures / images must be accompanied by at least two reports (from the appropriate authorities) that confirm its authenticity and validity to prove that it hasnt been altered in any way or hoaxed. one of these reports must be indipendantly reviewed by a reputable third party.

witness testimony must be accompanied by a police report detailing your statement and any follow up investigations conducted. preferably you will have at least two other indipendant witness statements (witnesses that have no connection with you) and reports if your sighting is in a city. in the case of alien visitation / possesion / contact of some sort, both a psychological / psyciatric and medical / doctors examination report must also be provided to prove mental stability and the collection of any physical biological evidence.

anonamous sources such as whistle blowers or people claiming contact with, for example aliens / reptilians, can remain anonamous as long as they can be verified as a credible source (e.g. position in company / access to documents can be verified) and questioned in person over their statements / alligations by anyone who requests it.

objects or physical evidence must be accompanied by at least two reports (from the appropriate authorities) that confirm its authenticity and validity to prove that it hasnt been altered in any way or hoaxed. one of these reports must be indipendantly reviewed by a reputable third party. these objects must also be available for testing, without conditions, by those that request access.

equipment such as video / picture cameras, mobile phones and other recording devices must be tested, to confirm that the device is operating within the design specifications, by the appropriate authorities. these test results must be provided.

documents must contain the appropriate letter heads and signatures which are verifiable (example signature is of someone who's position can be verified and authenticated as theirs). these documents must be accompanied by at least two reports (from the appropriate authorities) that confirm its authenticity and validity to prove that it hasnt been altered in any way or hoaxed. one of these reports must be indipendantly reviewed by a reputable third party.

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any comments or ideas ?
when its completed should we have it stickied or or ask that it be added as part of the T&C ?

lol. Am I the only one that sees this as a little one-sided? I used to always frequent religious threads, but instead of getting frustrated at them, I just stopped going. I realize those are good rules to abide by, and search for a truth with. Do two people saying they saw an angel prove it exists?
If not, then since we have no physical evidence of them (or aliens or ghosts), according to your requirements, we could never begin a post to have seen a ghost(etc.)?....if that is the case, I don't think your requirements are going to add much, if anything, to finding truth for people. Just my opinion.

Let me clarify. If we had available to us all possible ways of measuring and documenting all possible scenarios in the universe i would agree with you 100%.

Aww shucks. That means people can no longer post evidence. If everything must carry proof then my participation here will cease immediately.

After all, I don't come here for math lessons.

You can't prove anything in a medium like this.
Nothing.

Except math.

I'm actually surprised this thread got even one flag.

[edit on 27-12-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

im all for a serious discussion on these topics. but a discussion isnt a claim of proof. ats is supposed to be a place where people can come to have a serious discussion about this. or at least that appeared to be the aim of the site which is why i joined. not to waste time running down unproven alligations that wind up nowhere because most sources cant be verified or authenticated. and i dont think what i am asking for is unreasonable.

Hi optyk phyba

Originally posted by optyk phyba

YES! the burden of proof is on YOU to factually prove your case! the burden is NOT on those that dont believe you to disprove it. extraordinary claims absolutely require extra-ordinary levels of burden of proof.

so how do you satisfy your burden of proof ?

Who says that the "burden of proof" is on the person claiming to have seen something? And what kind of proof do you expect for "I saw flashing lights cross the night sky at an impossible rate of speed"?

ATS is an internet forum, not a court of law. And much of the time what is shared here is experiences, which are by definition subjective.

It is up to the reader to weigh the testimony they find here, not for those posting claims, and certainly not for the ATS administrators. They will shut down a thread or mark it [HOAX] if they have solid evidence that the person is knowingly posting fake claims, and that person can be banned from the boards.

But most of what is posted here, no matter how obviously false it seems to others, is genuinely believed by the person who opens the thread.

below are the minimum requirements that you must meet and the documentation you must provide for your claim(s) to be considered authentic.

videos / pictures / images must be accompanied by at least two reports (from the appropriate authorities) that confirm its authenticity and validity to prove that it hasnt been altered in any way or hoaxed. one of these reports must be indipendantly reviewed by a reputable third party.

This is one of the reasons to post pictures or videos on ATS, though: to bring them to the attention of people who have experience in verifying these things.

And who exactly are the "appropriate authorities"? Please do keep in mind that ATS is a conspiracy web site, so "authorities" are perhaps harder to agree on than most places.

If there has been a systematic cover-up of UFO phenomena and extraterrestrial encounters, for example, perpetrated by the most powerful of the world governments over the course of a half century, who do you recommend looking to for unbiased authority?

witness testimony must be accompanied by a police report detailing your statement and any follow up investigations conducted. preferably you will have at least two other indipendant witness statements (witnesses that have no connection with you) and reports if your sighting is in a city. in the case of alien visitation / possesion / contact of some sort, both a psychological / psyciatric and medical / doctors examination report must also be provided to prove mental stability and the collection of any physical biological evidence.

You have got to be kidding.

I'm sorry, but if you were out in the middle of a field alone and a UFO buzzed by, would you call the police? What would you expect them to do?

And are you seriously suggesting that we have to undergo (and pay for) both medical and psychological testing before we can tell ATS that we saw something? And submit our medical records for posting on the internet?

anonamous sources such as whistle blowers or people claiming contact with, for example aliens / reptilians, can remain anonamous as long as they can be verified as a credible source (e.g. position in company / access to documents can be verified) and questioned in person over their statements / alligations by anyone who requests it.

It just gets better and better.

Perhaps you need to check the dictionary for the definition of "anonymous".

If a person's position in an organization can be verified and they can be "questioned in person" by "anyone who requests it", that is not anonymity.

objects or physical evidence must be accompanied by at least two reports (from the appropriate authorities) that confirm its authenticity and validity to prove that it hasnt been altered in any way or hoaxed. one of these reports must be indipendantly reviewed by a reputable third party. these objects must also be available for testing, without conditions, by those that request access.

Again, authorities? Available for testing by all?

How are you going to manage that? When thousands of demands to see an artifact flood in, will you organize a tour for the artifact? Or just use the honor principle to trust that each person will send it on to the next person on the list?

I highly recommend thinking through the things you post before posting

equipment such as video / picture cameras, mobile phones and other recording devices must be tested, to confirm that the device is operating within the design specifications, by the appropriate authorities. these test results must be provided.

At your expense, I assume?

documents must contain the appropriate letter heads and signatures which are verifiable (example signature is of someone who's position can be verified and authenticated as theirs). these documents must be accompanied by at least two reports (from the appropriate authorities) that confirm its authenticity and validity to prove that it hasnt been altered in any way or hoaxed. one of these reports must be indipendantly reviewed by a reputable third party.

I don't really think ATS is the place you're looking for.

Maybe it would help if you think of ATS as a clearinghouse – everything comes through here, and it's up to us as members to pick out the gems. Our tools in this are stars, flags, and posting.

When a particular thread has a particularly strong claim to "verifiability", measures can be taken to bring it to wider attention. But you're asking ATS to be the final presenters – that's not our role.

any comments or ideas ?
when its completed should we have it stickied or or ask that it be added as part of the T&C ?

No.

Look, I wish that people would stop posting claims that evidence is proof. I wish people would stop claiming that if I just see this or that YouTube video my understanding of the universe will be changed forever.

But the problem with those claims isn't whether or not there's proof, or even whether or not they're factual; it's that they follow the current media practice of making grandiose stories out of mundane information, in the belief that quantity of attention is more important than quality of attention.

When something claims to be 100% PROOF of whatever, just ignore that claim and evaluate the evidence on its own merits.

If the claim is personal testimony, then use your knowledge of the poster's history, and how they handle their thread, to help gauge their sincerity.

If you don't like wading through a bunch of nonsense to get to the gems before the rest of the world, then don't bother.

reply to post by optyk phyba


well - where's the fun in that?

I'm not sure you get what's happening here

we ask stuff, wonder about stuff, share stuff, discuss stuff - argue about stuff

we amuse and are amused - by stuff

are there maybe people you can prosecute on the outside?

you know - to get it out of your system?

anyway - all the arguing is only fun if you get to bully people for evidence

it's all spoiled by making it your only way into the game

reply to post by americandingbat

witness testimony must be accompanied by a police report detailing your statement and any follow up investigations conducted. preferably you will have at least two other indipendant witness statements (witnesses that have no connection with you) and reports if your sighting is in a city. in the case of alien visitation / possesion / contact of some sort, both a psychological / psyciatric and medical / doctors examination report must also be provided to prove mental stability and the collection of any physical biological evidence.

You have got to be kidding.

I just thought that was funny

What? Are you serious, burden of proof. Wow, dude if you are looking for proof you are in the wrong place. This site is about personal experiences and theories. And discussions by like minded individuals. Besides that what is proof? You can never prove anything to a skeptic so certifiable proof is useless.