Scores killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza

reply to post by GamerGal

Jenin didn't happen. They say it was a massacre. Last time I checked it wasn't a massacre, so the Jenin Massacre didn't happen. Yes there was some action, and some people died, but it wasn't a massacre.

The IDF's invasion of Jenin was a crime under international law, and stands as a crime, whether civilians were indiscriminately killed, whether militants were summarily executed, and whether non-combatants were deliberately killed. If none of these killings occurred, the invasion would still be a crime, because the IDF had no right, moral or legal, to be in Jenin. So how then can killings, carried out in the commission of a crime, be lawful?

If you truly believe no one was killed in Jenin then why exactly was the IDF in Jenin?

Focusing on how Israel conducted itself, and how many people were killed or not killed is simply ignoring the larger issue of whether Israel had any right, moral or legal, to carry out its invasion of Jenin.

If you say no one at all died in Jenin then why would the IDF invade it? Was it a mistaken destination for the IDF? Or did the IDF get there and decide everything was as it should be and turned around and left without firing a shot? Clearly the IDF is not denying it was in Jenin, just exactly what occurred there.

It was still illegal for the IDF to be there in the first place.

The UN report notes:

"Israel's obligations in the Occupied Palestinian Territory are set out in the Geneva Convention...Palestinian residents...are 'protected persons'...which provides they may not be willfully killed, tortured, taken as hostages or suffer humiliating or degrading treatment. Israel has obligations not to engage in acts of collective punishment or reprisals and is to refrain from appropriating or extensively destroying the property of protected persons..."

Israel's actions in the occupied territories are, in the first, a huge campaign of reprisal, collective punishment, and the infliction of humiliating and degrading treatment, the Convention is being ignored in these -- and indeed, in all -- respects.

Israel does not respect the Geneva Convention in deed, it doesn't in words either. As the UN notes, "The Government of the State of Israel has not...accepted the de jure applicability of (the Geneva Conventions)...to all territory occupied since 1967."

So, was there a massacre? That doesn’t really matter, what matters is that the IDF entered and violated yet another Convention illegally and in that act alone violated human rights.

How many covenants do you have to ignore before you're recognized for what Israel is -- a rogue that does what it pleases?

Originally posted by poet1b
Yes, well, we all act like animals now and then, but there are those things we should not due, and randomly firing misile into civilians populations with no military activity are not one of them.

The Palestinians are getting back what they have been giving and then some, as they should be getting for supporting the terrorist policies of Hamas.

Holy fascism!

So the civilians who are clearly trying desperately to get out of this besieged country are supposedly "supporting Hamas and deserve to be caged like animals and bombed"?

How the heck did you manage to twist your brain into thinking people trying to flee their country support the very people who have provoked the response that's causing their homes to be destroyed and family to die?

If the civilians supported Hamas, they wouldn't be trying to evacuate (and getting shot at the border in the process.).

What do you expect them to do? Shake sticks at heavily armed Hamas militiamen?
THEY ARE TRYING TO GET OUT. The civilians know they don't stand a chance against Hamas, Israel, or Egypt, and they are trying to get out!

Instead of thinking what every rational human being would, "hey, maybe we should help get them out so they can set up their lives somewhere else"... no you just want to see them caged in and bombed.

Well... I hope that's what happens to you.
I hope the next time your block has any form of criminal activity, instead of the police letting you leave, they simply fire-bomb your entire neighborhood with you in it... that sounds like justice to me.



Caged animals... exactly what is wrong with your brain, and how can I find you to get you psychological help?

[edit on 31-12-2008 by johnsky]

reply to post by johnsky



The people voted for the group that is in power. They knew the ramifications. Hamas dished it . . . and now they will receive it. That simple.

As for your American/Canadian example . . . Americans are not firing rockets on a daily basis into Canada or Mexico.

reply to post by xxpigxx


And the American people voted for bush... clearly your whole country deserves to face war crime charges for supporting him.


... oh that's right... that's not how it works... neither is that how it works over there either.

How the heck were they supposed to know this was going to happen. Just because you voted someone into power doesn't mean your a freaking psychic and know what they will end up doing with that power.

Or can I chalk you down for total responsibility of what your government does too?

[edit on 31-12-2008 by johnsky]

Yes, well, we all act like animals now and then, but there are those things we should not due, and randomly firing misile into civilians populations with no military activity are not one of them.

They are simply fighting back with whatever they got.
The french resistance use to hide among people to fight with the natzis.
You fail to see the numbers beyiond Israel.
While you talk CNN reports over 150 civilian have died.

The Palestinians are getting back what they have been giving and then some, as they should be getting for supporting the terrorist policies of Hamas.

Due to forcing an ilegal nation on people and telling them what to do.
Israel should not exist, the land belongs to Palestinians and Jewish people and no one is entitled to call it theirs.No one. You can't come and push people out of the way to have your own state.It's something you do not understand I guess.

Certainly Israel could do more to make things right, but the Palestinians need to make an effort as well, and they could start simply by recognizing Israel.

No they don't and that is where you do not understand.Israel is the problem as a state of being.The land does not belong to one group, heritage of generations that came and went should guarantie that no borders should exist and people should form a mixed state, where the police, the army, the goverment is mixed.When you form such a state you push people out of the way it will eventualy create conflicts.

The Palestinians wanted to push the Israelis into the sea originally, so it is very hard to have sympathy for them now, especially when they ended this last truce by firing misiles into Israel.

Yes due to the fact that the state of Israel cause problems and hatred betwen people, It should not exist.It's there for a reason, to cause problems in the ME.Jews are just like arabs, take a look at the spelling of arabic writings and jewish ones and you well notice a stuning similarity in style and how fonts look because the two groups have coexisted and shared culture.

Syria, Jordan, Jerusalem, Persia, India, Nothern Africa, Spain, Serbia, and attempted to conquer Europe, BEFORE Europe started fighting back.
Muslims are still trying to take even more land from India, and are busy conquering Africa.

Except for the Turkis(Otoman Empire) that was formidable in size and power none of them as I know conquered anyone.

Persians may have had an empire but it was well before embracing the fate of Islam.

Do you know why the language that it is believed was spoken by Christ is going extinct? Because when Arabs conquerred that area, they made it illegal to speak the native tongue of Aramic.

Arabs have always existed in that area early before Christ, it's their home.Wars were going on because of the crusades, when the first crusades were caried out in Jerusalim arabs were living there.Jews and Arabs were killed by the crusades.The crusaders slaughtered anyone found it the city at the time.

physics.technion.ac.il...

Jerusalem's history stretches back about 5,000 years. About 2500 BC, the Canaanites inhabited the city. Later, Jerusalem became a Jebusite citadel. When DAVID captured the city (c.1000 BC), the Jebusites were absorbed into the Jewish people. David made Jerusalem the capital of his kingdom, and SOLOMON built the first Temple to house the Ark of the Covenant. In 586 BC, the Babylonian NEBUCHADNEZZAR II destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and exiled the Jews to Babylonia. Fifty years later (537 BC), CYRUS THE GREAT of Persia conquered Babylonia and permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their Temple. Persia held the city until 333 BC, when ALEXANDER THE GREAT added Palestine to his empire. In 323 BC, PTOLEMY I of Egypt took Palestine into his kingdom.

Note. Permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Ohhhh bad persians(iranians)

ALEXANDER THE GREAT added Palestine to his empire. In 323 BC


Hell broke lose when the decision to form the state of Israel was made.
If this were not to happen you would probally have peace in the region
with Jewish and Palestinians living and minding their own bussines.

You can not favor one group while you disfavor another one, and that is just what the creation of Israel did.You can not push people around and expect they will submit.You can't move people from a place that has ties and heritage to them, or make them live under your rules and conditions, if you do that then you are a tirant and an egomaniac control freak.

The state of Israel has no place there, however a state where all the people that have a right to the land can be formed. A state can emerge from that.






[edit on 31-12-2008 by pepsi78]

reply to post by johnsky


I am glad to see that you understand that is Hamas wrong. Maybe you have some sense after all.

The animals reference was made originally by pepsi, you should try and check these things before going into the attack mode. I did not say all of anyone should be caged like animals, or bombed. As I have posted on the board, Hamas should give the women and the children a chance to flee the area if they plan on continuing this war.

Should should try to control your emotions before you shoot off, and satrt making accusations putting words in other peoples mouths.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by johnsky

 

Hamas should give the women and the children a chance to flee the area if they plan on continuing this war.

Hamas isn't the ones who have locked down the border, shut down the airspace, and blockaded the ports... Israel is.

It wouldn't matter if Hamas wanted the civilians to be allowed to flee the carnage, Israel won't let them leave.


Yes, what Hamas is doing defies logic... but what Israel is doing to the civilians defies reason, justice, and basic human rights.
Both Hamas and Israel need to be brought to justice...
and the Civilians need to be let out of that cage!

[edit on 31-12-2008 by johnsky]

reply to post by johnsky

Yes what Hamas is doing is wrong, they should foucus on military targets only.The problem is that the rockets are unguided.Palestinians should not stop fighting, as they do they will lose everything, those that do fight should pick a difrent strategy tho to avoidi civilian casulties.I don't really know how they can fight against fighter jets and advanced targeting sistems since they are pour broke and all they have are fire crackers.





[edit on 31-12-2008 by pepsi78]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


It is extremely frustrating that you keep posting this garbage as fact when it is not. What happened in Jenin varies greatly according to who is telling the story, and no one has convicted anyone of proof of any international law.

Evidence is that the Palestinians faked the Jenin masacre and used it as an excuse to claim all out war, and continue on to use this lie as an excuse to intentionally bomb civilian targets, and kill non-combatants, and any all Jews when the opportunity strikes.

The Palestinians terrorist as well as the rest of Muslim terrorists are far more guilty of violating international law, and and essentially all basic codes of humanity.

The fact that you can back these animals, and yes these terrorists are animals, is amazing. I don't care what your cause is, blowing up innocent women and children, and even innocent men who have harmed no one is wrong. Collateral damage is bad enough, but intentionally killing non-combatants is not acceptable under any circumstances.

reply to post by pepsi78


I agree, Israel should allow the women and children the opportunity to leave Hamas. Threre should be tremendous effort to push for this to happen.

As for the men, no way to tell the combatants from the non-combatants.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes what Hamas is doing is wrong, they should foucus on military targets only.The problem is that the rockets are unguided.Palestinians should not stop fighting, as they do they will lose everything, those that do fight should pick a difrent strategy tho to avoidi civilian casulties.I don't really know how they can fight against fighter jets and advanced targeting sistems since they are pour broke and all they have are fire crackers.

Agreed.

The problem with unguided rockets is just that, they're unguided. Hamas doesn't know what they're firing at once they launch the rockets, they're home-made for the most part.

Then again, they hardly have visible targets to go after... and targeting the fighter jets which bomb them is rather difficult when all you're holding is a rifle and an unguided rocket that looks like a child constructed it.

Hamas is desperate. They know what's coming whether they provoke Israel or not, Israel is coming to take their land, just as they've been doing for decades now.
Hamas wants to inflict some pain to remind them.

The civilians need not be caught up in this. They aren't allowed to fight back, and yet, they aren't allowed to flee either. It's as if Israel just wants them to sit down politely while they drop bombs on them.

reply to post by Majorion


The Christian crusades took place after Islamic began attempting conquest of Europe. This has been pointed out numerous times on the board, and links provided. Why do people keep repeating nonsnse like this justifying Muslim conquest.

Not all Muslims are terrorist. If you think it is all right to murder a non-combatant, and you encourage others to do so, then you are a murderer, and you belong in a prison like all murderers.

If you haven't called for the death of Israel, then you probably are not a terrorist, and deserve to walk around a free man like all law abiding citizens, and none of these things I have said have anything to do with you.

reply to post by poet1b

Not all Muslims are terrorist. If you think it is all right to murder a non-combatant, and you encourage others to do so, then you are a murderer, and you belong in a prison like all murderers.

Not ALL Muslims are terrorist? .. you phrase that in a way to make it seem as if the "majority" of Muslims are terrorists, which is completely false. And no of course I don't think it's alright to murder a non-combatant or any human being for that matter... that's what the Israeli state are doing(killing innocents) and they should be held accountable for such actions considering that they are completely superior to Hamas.

If you haven't called for the death of Israel, then you probably are not a terrorist, and deserve to walk around a free man like all law abiding citizens, and none of these things I have said have anything to do with you.

If you are referring to radicals(extreme minority) who continue to ignite the flame of war for political purposes or otherwise, then I am in agreement with you over the action of fighting THEM but never killing innocent civilians or involving civilians. BTW suicide is forbidden to be committed in Islam if one wishes to remain a Muslim, so that means that whoever kills themselves and others in an act of suicide is NO Muslim at all and should not be considered as such.

Some Muslims are calling for the death of Israel out of hate and anger for all that is happening, but it does NOT necessarily mean that they are "terrorists" poet1b nor does it necessarily mean that they ever intend on acting on such a statement, such is the misconception my friend. And even if someone harbors this opinion.. don't you think it's kinda extreme to put them in jail for hating Israel? .. I notice you and others to be making similar(if not worse) statements about Arabs and Muslims throughout all these threads.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year folks!!

Majorion

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

It is extremely frustrating that you keep posting this garbage as fact when it is not.

Are you saying the quote from the Geneva Convention is garbage? Look it up, he is posting facts, which you cannot challenge, so you divert attention to some irrelevant aspect which has already been answered.

I've noticed this is a common tactic amongst the pro-Israelis throughout these 70 odd pages. Continually ignoring the fact that Israel is ILLEGALLY occupying lands and subjecting an entire population to human rights abuses.

Many of your diversionary side issues would hold some water in some other debate, but COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT when discussing the current Israeli aggression, which is based upon an ILLEGAL occupation, decades of human rights abuse and blatant theft of land, as confirmed and agreed by pretty much the entire world's political system.

Now that's frustrating

Originally posted by GamerGal
reply to post by neformore

 

Jenin didn't happen. They say it was a massacre. Last time I checked it wasn't a massacre, so the Jenin Massacre didn't happen. Yes there was some action, and some people died, but it wasn't a massacre.

The UN said it was a massacre

The UN said international laws were broken

you do not

what others say that doesn`t agree with your agenda , which includes the UN , then you dismiss it as `pallywood` and never happened

well , your wrong.

the UN proved you wrong.

reply to post by poet1b


i have a question for you

why was no IDF soldier convicted when in bethlremehm a US student was shot dead on camera?

i have 1 quesion for everyone:


how many slavs died in WW2 at the direct hands of the Nazi`s?

[edit on 31/12/08 by Harlequin]

Many of you whom back Israel's side claim that Muslims were the ones to initiate hostility and break agreements. Yet the below article proves that the Jews have long been untrustworthy..and would most likely break a peace treaty the first chance they get.

The Jews settlements in Madina There were originally three settlements of the Jews in Madina namely those of Banu Qainuqa, Banu Nadir, ant Banu Quraizah. Every settlement was a stronghold, The Holy Prophet gave them a charter of freedom, whereunder they enjoyed autonomy in the administration of their affairs. The Jews entered into agreements of alliance with the Muslim community and undertook to help the Muslims in the event of any attack on Madina. The Jews, however, did not honor such agreements,

So Muhammad(Prophet of Islam) wanted nothing more than to co exist with his neighbors and live as allies on a single territory, and how did they respond?

When the Battle of the Ditch began, they assured the Muslims that they would stand by them. They, however, avoided active assistance on one pretext or the other. In the course of the battle they acted treacherously. Huyayy b Akhtab the leader of Banu Nadir who had been expelled by the Muslims from Madina approached Banu Quraizah and prevailed upon them to cast in their lot with the Quraish and their confederates who were fighting against Islam.

Source

Originally posted by Harlequin

Originally posted by GamerGal
reply to post by neformore

 

Jenin didn't happen. They say it was a massacre. Last time I checked it wasn't a massacre, so the Jenin Massacre didn't happen. Yes there was some action, and some people died, but it wasn't a massacre.

The UN said it was a massacre

The UN said international laws were broken

you do not

what others say that doesn`t agree with your agenda , which includes the UN , then you dismiss it as `pallywood` and never happened

well , your wrong.

the UN proved you wrong.

Oh, the UN said......

the same uN THAT FREELY ALLOWED HEZBOLLA TERRORISTS TO SETUP ROCKLET LAUNCHERS NEXT TO THEM AND FIRE THEM????, THAT UN

Any non-biased person can see that.

You are quick to condem Isreal, but lets see you condem Hamas for startingt this with over a month of daily attacks.
Oh, did you forget to mention that was the cause???

As far as not opening the border in Egypt, they know that hamas terrorist come in male and female murder's.

They also know that the cowardly Hamas terrorists would try to escape, dressed as women.

Both Egypt and Jordan know this and properly say it "IS" hamas's fault. (Btw, they are both muslium countries, just for reference).,

Let's all take a breather and reflect on the Reality of the situation by looking at this Map:

What does this map say to you about what is happening to the Innocent Women and Children in Palestine?

What does it make you feel?

"Never again"?