The Athiest Regime!

sorry if i double posted, i think this debate may be too broad to focus a good battle on, too many fronts
im going to start a new thread on the Secular Society in the western world hope to see you atheists there guns blazing hehe

Originally posted by Notroh est
Islam is a different topic, but atheism can be judged on its effects, in western society the greatest opposition to overt atheism is Christianity as an ideology not religion

the greek translation of Religion is simply a group of people with a common understanding

yes lets take a look at finland norway sweden japan

all great countries to live in, fairly safe, high standard of universal health care, high levels of universal eductaion, high standards of quality of life

Christianity asks for humility and service toward others, and a moral code that is in opposition to dictatorship accumulation of power and wealth

so where did the fundamentalists go so wrong as a group(the leadership that is)? how about your average christain they dont all reflect this either?

flash cars, big houses(often multioul properties), large bank balances

why do they ask for your money for thier church rather then for charities that help everyone? why do christain charities try to convert people rather then just help them becasue they need help?

Atheism claims to be a non belief and based on rationale, but the effect of this rationale is self worship and supreme arrogance as Stalin and Hitler can attest,

stalin ran a personality cult hitler was considered a christian by him self as well as the evangelic church and catholic church

some atheism leads to self worship, but it really isnt all. thats called selfishness and is found in all walks of life and faiths

are the atheist scientists doing it cure disease for all or just them selves?
do they engineer better food production methods for them selves or people who live in poor farming places of the world?

all opposition must be disposed and uprooted as Mao stated "religion is poison" but it isn’t religion but the ideology that he reviles, as the Tibetans believe in harmony and respect for life they opposed the self deitification that Atheism offers and many were violently destroyed for this belief

mao wasnt an athiest, theres that personality cult silyness again

wanting to be god like isnt atheistic thats power mad delusion

Christ said "if you wish to lead you must serve" and in this form the Christian Civilization exists as it did in Western Christendom before the great schism,

sorry where was this?

the most religeous in medieval europe were the ones at the top of the power structure

the one who did much less of the serving

this Civilization is built on the hearts and minds of its citizens that serve and love each other,

you dont have to be religeous to care or help

just be good for goodness sake, is an often used athiest quote

they are the ones feeding the homeless and poor they are the ones that defend the rights of human dignity in the public arena,

gross generalisation

so no one besides catholics help anyone? run and work in charities? defend human rights?

cival rights for minorities are more often joined by athiests, prop8 for instance the religeous(not all but a large proportion were for it, while athiests again not all but the majority were against it)

the say the lords prayer before service in parliament, military, courts, hospitals, university and schools,

why does a prayer do anything? they would be run as just well without as with

you say that secularism is what you seek but this is false, secularism is a division of Church authority and State Authority which has existed since the schism and reformation but Christianity as an ideology has always been firmly implanted into Western State powers and they are expected to conduct themselves in a Christian manner

not secularism then?

secularism has existed as an ideal but not as a reality, religeous icons of only 1 religeon found in town halls churches courts, prays said to a perticular god said in schools goverment etc

placing god into the pledge of alegance again isnt secular

in a secular world religeous icons would be removed from them

it wouldnt be one nation under god,

its still very theocratic based on one religeon

else all religeous icons would share same space in schools and goverments

still Christianity and State have always been intrinsickly combined

so not secular then

what atheists seek is a division of Christianity and State hence an Atheist State,

no thats a secular state

a blank piece of paper isnt athiestic paper, its secular becasue it shows no bias, that paper can be used for many things but it remains secular until someone writes a form of religeousness upon it

we dont have any symbols, we have a big red A for the atheist out campaign but thats like a pink ribbon for breast cancer awaerness

theres the A surrounded by atoms, but thats actually someone elses symbol so some people borrowed it and it kind of got adopted even though its for an atomic agency

to form an athiestic state we would need a symbol of atheism and replace every religeous icon in state buildings with it

form a set of athiestic ideals we all agree with and say we will follow and then use them to guide the states laws and actions

organising athiests is like herding cats, our only common ground seems to be a)were people b) we dont believe in a god

but the agnostics get lumped in who believe there may be a god so we loose that

our common ground is that we are all people so any ideals would be based on the principle we are all people and all equal but also all quite unique and its this that is so great about people

it would be a little comunistic all people are equal but then the people wouldnt be pressured to conform to 1 ideal so it would end up very different to communism

to be honest with such a wide and varied array of people and thought process's we probably couldnt agree on much beyond the athiest comandments which still arnt universal, its somthing someone came up with and caught on

but the humanistic code is also pretty good so we could probably agree to using both of those ... but thats about as far it would get

a removal of all icons and mentions to god make it secular not atheistic, they are different things

no matter the guise whether it be socialism, communism, nationalism, even democracy, if an atheist state is formed dictatorship is sure to follow

and the same goes for any of those forms of goverment with a religeous twist

they are not atheistic they are politcal ideologies

there is nothing in atheism that preculdes to a fascist or totolatarian frame of mind, in fact it becomes the opposite we view all people as people, not saved and unsaved, religeous and infidel

the Atheist Regime is the worship of self,

i dont worship anyone im flawed so why on earth would i worship me?

i find it ironic how atheists offer an earthly Utopia yet in Thomas Moore's Utopian society the atheist is least trusted for they believe in nothing but themselves and seek nothing but self gratification

isnt thomas moore a theist? peddaling the same name calling and grossly inacurate generalisation you are?

not really so odd then

[edit on 28/12/08 by noobfun]

Remove Christianity from western society and you will have an Atheist State, this is your goal is it not? You wish to usurp Atheist power upon a Nation built on Christian based institution
Finland, Norway and Sweeden are Nations that are strongly based on Christian ideology, and Japan adopted an American (Christian nation) system after wwii
If the populace is leaning toward atheism then soon enough an Atheist State will form and the after effect will be evident

Nationalism, socialism, communism, democracy are indeed political ideologies but they are still ideology as is atheism and Christianity, depending on the form they take they will be labeled political or religious but in reality there isn’t much difference, if a political ideology dictates your life style, what, if or how you worship, then it should be called a religious ideology and Nationalism, socialism and communism certainly dictate ones lifestyle and religious beliefs and these political ideologies were spawned from atheist ideology, the UN is seeking to uproot Christian ideology from western nations and impose its absolute tolerance of sin and multiculturalism, a neutral non belief non sovereign non culture a perfect environment to impose a dictorial power

I fail to see how Hitler was a Catholic or Christian, this is absurd, he exploited the national prejudices of a defeated oppressed peoples, whether cultural, Christian, political or racial prejudice he used it to gain a place on the podium and he went from there
His policies were overtly atheist, social, science and environmental such policies that are beginning to surface in western nations once again imposed by UN agenda, are you forgetting what NAZI stood for Nationalist Socialists
An all powerful socialist state fashioned in Hilter’s desired image
So what if he was baptized catholic, his grandmother was jewish does that make him a jew as well? He destroyed opponents whether German, catholic clergy and especially Jew

You claim Hitler a catholic and Thomas Moore a theist, Thomas Moore the author of Utopia the story of a fictional perfect State governed society, a book which Marx plagiarized much of for his own literature, TM is a Catholic Saint
He was beheaded by Henry VIII because he opposed Henry’s obscene display of self gratification

The fact is and im sure you’ll agree, a perfect society on earth is impossible, for humanity is flawed and inclined toward corruption, as Thomas Moore well knew and so he called his perfect society ‘Utopia’ a word in Latin meaning ‘no place’

But a world with out Christianity will be the same as a nation without Christianity and the Atheist Regimes are the prime example of what will happen

Originally posted by Notroh est
Remove Christianity from western society and you will have an Atheist State,

no you will ahve state devoid of christianity, it will still have buddism, islam, hindusim and a whole host of others

theres no such thing as an athiest state, if your removed all religeon all together it it could be considered atheistic, but still not if other supernatural beliefs still exist

secular is not athiestic, it is secular

this is your goal is it not? You wish to usurp Atheist power upon a Nation built on Christian based institution

it was built upon secularistic notions not christian

thats why seperation of church and state are built into the constituion, its to keep the state free form any and all religeous infleunce for the good of no matter what religeon the follow

Finland, Norway and Sweeden are Nations that are strongly based on Christian ideology,

historically but not no

thier legal system as it is in america and the UK is based on common law which predates christianity

and Japan adopted an American (Christian nation) system after wwii

no not really

If the populace is leaning toward atheism then soon enough an Atheist State will form and the after effect will be evident

we might actually get secualr goverment as it was always inteded to be?

Nationalism, socialism, communism, democracy are indeed political ideologies but they are still ideology as is atheism and Christianity, depending on the form they take they will be labeled political or religious but in reality there isn’t much difference, if a political ideology dictates your life style, what, if or how you worship, then it should be called a religious ideology and Nationalism, socialism and communism certainly dictate ones lifestyle and religious beliefs and these political ideologies were spawned from atheist ideology,

marxist communsim yes it is free of religeon but totally not just secular as atheists wish for, great on paper but get people involved it all goes wrong

nationalism has nothing to do with faith or lack of, it was also disliked by marxists

socialism is the middle ground between capitolism and communism

infact nationalism originated as a by product of industrialism and the most industralised nations at the time were christain

there really is no such thing as an athiest state, becasue to be an athiest state athiesm its self would need guiding rule sets to base the sate upon and woulkd need to be organised and we really arnt

the UN is seeking to uproot Christian ideology from western nations and impose its absolute tolerance of sin and multiculturalism, a neutral non belief non sovereign non culture a perfect environment to impose a dictorial power

ummm dictorial power systems arnt athiestic either, they were around in religeon a long time ago

I fail to see how Hitler was a Catholic or Christian, this is absurd, he exploited the national prejudices of a defeated oppressed peoples, whether cultural, Christian, political or racial prejudice he used it to gain a place on the podium and he went from there

possably because he always claimed to be and practiced catholasism long before he he came close to power

he was raised and lived as a catholic, he was a mad man and a catholic

his religeon helped form his beliefs and his beliefs helped form his religeon

if you cant understand someone bieng a practicing catholic since child hood to the day he died making him acatholic theres something odd

His policies were overtly atheist,

yes like killing the athiest groups, banning any literature that was demeaning to god .... how very atheistic

social, science and environmental such policies that are beginning to surface in western nations once again imposed by UN agenda, are you forgetting what NAZI stood for Nationalist Socialists

are you forgetting to look further?

his socialism was nationalism in disguise, which isnt atheistic as it orginated in religeous countries by religeous leadership

An all powerful socialist state fashioned in Hilter’s desired image
So what if he was baptized catholic, his grandmother was jewish does that make him a jew as well? He destroyed opponents whether German, catholic clergy and especially Jew

it was supposedly his grandfather not mother and evidence is lacking to prove it www.lloydthomas.org...

he was baptised and lived his life as a catholic, when he came to power the small number of german catholics that were persecuted was becasue they had formed an underground movment to smuggle jews out of the country, by and large the evangelic lutherin and catholic church supported it whole hartedly (there were exceptions but they were a small minority)

You claim Hitler a catholic and Thomas Moore a theist, Thomas Moore the author of Utopia the story of a fictional perfect State governed society, a book which Marx plagiarized much of for his own literature, TM is a Catholic Saint
He was beheaded by Henry VIII because he opposed Henry’s obscene display of self gratification

ahh was thinking of a different thomas moore who is thiestic but not of any perticular denomination of faith

The fact is and im sure you’ll agree, a perfect society on earth is impossible, for humanity is flawed and inclined toward corruption, as Thomas Moore well knew and so he called his perfect society ‘Utopia’ a word in Latin meaning ‘no place’

where people are utopia isnt, i will quite agree its human nature rather then religeon as that factor

But a world with out Christianity will be the same as a nation without Christianity and the Atheist Regimes are the prime example of what will happen

you keep talking about athiest regieme

its a thing that to the best of our knowledge has never happened, theres no ideology to promote for it to become athiestic

atheism is a simple disblief in the supernatural, so an athiestic state would exists of a state that that doesnt have fairies unicorn gods santa the mosnter under the bed or any other supernatural ... beyond that there is nothing

you seeing atheism as somthing it really isnt, organised for a start, with political goals and agendas to take power and confrom to its centralised dogma which it doesnt have so cant do any of it

state athiesm isnt really athiestic

state atheism is more like older religeon where people are forced to not believe in the smae way people were forced to attend church

this is where i think your getting muddled, secularism has nothing to do with state athiesm

secularism we want becasue its a good thing for EVERYONE not just us but everyone, you know equality bieng equal for all

state atheism is forced compliance, which is more akin to the values religeon shows and as we arnt all the keen on religeon we dont want forcing of anything on anyone

but please feel free to point me to athiest groups saying we want an atheist state and to ban ALL religeon, becasue you only seem to think its atheism V's christianity ........ which immediatley shows your views of atheism are skewed

athiesm more generally is disbelief in all gods, not just yours

we want a goverment infuenced by no perticular religeon for the betterment of all people of all faiths, the constituation grants freedom of religeon AND FROM religeon





ever read sun tzu's the art of war?

possably because he always claimed to be and practiced catholasism long before he he came close to power

he was raised and lived as a catholic, he was a mad man and a catholic

his religeon helped form his beliefs and his beliefs helped form his religeon

if you cant understand someone bieng a practicing catholic since child hood to the day he died making him acatholic theres something odd




His policies were overtly atheist,

yes like killing the athiest groups, banning any literature that was demeaning to god .... how very atheistic





Hitler also killed and demanded christians be put to death and catholics, if not as many as the jews.

The hierarchy of the OT claimed to be of God too but Christ himself said they weren't. Claiming to be a Catholic doesn't make him one, Hitler was an evil man full of hypocrasy and he didn't even follow christ teachings.

wasn't even close to catholic.

Secularism is church authority and state authority divided (in the west), not the uprooting of Christian ideology and Christian culture from government and state institution, such institutions that in the west were formed from Christian culture

I must admit though from our respective bias, me as Christian and you as Atheist we can argue our own perspectives of history and our different interpretations of ideology and definitions for eternity
Where I see an Atheist Regime you see a personality cult "religion"
Where you see an evil Catholic dictator, I see a self worshiping Atheist

But I am interested then in asking you, if you had come to power and you had to implement your government as an Atheist what policies would you implement?
As for myself I would question any move I made with "is it for Christ's glory or for my own glory?"
As for your self, you have no god so what would govern your conscience?

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

His policies were overtly atheist,

no his policies were overtly insane

you cant have athiest policies until atheism becomes somthing other then we dont believe in god

he had some good economic policies, but the rest were insanse

it was personal insanity and racism further fueled by his interpreation of the bible

in the same way binladen and any other islamic fundamentalist cleric that premotes islam as a means to go out and kill people or kill your self to kill other people is insanity based upon religeous distortion

if they are still labeled muslim by the same methodology hitler was still catholic

many muslims say bin landen and co arnt muslims they are just crazy men, this is exactly the same as your doing with hitler

promoting religeon and attacking any other form of thought is most certainly not atheistic

maybe your warped view of what it is, theres a reason i asked about sun tzu

know your self but not your enemy and your almost ceratin of failure, quite simply you dont understand atheism and what it doesnt stand for

Hitler also killed and demanded christians be put to death and catholics, if not as many as the jews.

didnt i cover this?

the ones that were helping jews escape i cant remeber then name of the movment.

polish/russian catholics were seen as an inferior species so not gods chosen ones despite bieng christian

jehovahs witnesses outright refused to fight so they were persecuted not for bieng christain but for not fighting

he simply didnt persecute christians for BIENG christian. he did persecute athiests for bieng athiests, and communists for bieng communists and most deffinatlkey jews for bieng jewish even if they had changed faiths to christianity

The hierarchy of the OT claimed to be of God too but Christ himself said they weren't. Claiming to be a Catholic doesn't make him one, Hitler was an evil man full of hypocrasy and he didn't even follow christ teachings.

wasn't even close to catholic.

by todays deffinition

lutheran evangelicalism was based Martin Luthers interpretation of scriture and interpretation from greek to german so the masses could read it(his work strongly influenced the KJV bible) and he held racist views against jews as shown in his other book based on biblical scriopture, so it was common teaching in church that jews were all responsible for jesus death

the bible it self has jesus condeming the children of israel(jews) to the great void with a gnashing of teeth

he is considered one of the fathers of protestantism

by early 19xx standards he(hitler) was an average catholic

heres a little about Martin Luther his life his works his belief and what he did for the church as we see it today, without him it would be a very different thing en.wikipedia.org...

youd think if your going to follow a religeon youd learn somthing about its history

p.s. the peasent wars carried out in his name (but not really having anything to do with him) sound an aweful lot like communism dont you think ... maybe thats where carl marx got his idea

[edit on 29/12/08 by noobfun]

As for myself I would question any move I made with "is it for Christ's glory or for my own glory?"

And so it's better to write your constitution on God knowing many don't agree with it? What if you ran a country under God and after several decades your coutnry turned mostly athiest. Would you continue running the country under God then?

See Christianity is huge. No doubt...but the problem I see is Christianity isn't all. How can America be a Democracy when we dont' vote on everything? This Republic we live in caters to the those in power and money. Last I checked Athiests, Pagans, Jews, Mormons, and all sort of others live here as well.

and for the record...

Hitler's own words

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice"

-Kyo

Originally posted by Notroh est
Secularism is church authority and state authority divided (in the west), not the uprooting of Christian ideology and Christian culture from government and state institution, such institutions that in the west were formed from Christian culture

o_0

Its essential principles are three:

The improvement of this life by material means.
That science is the available Providence of man.
That it is good to do good. "Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good"

these are the principles of secularism, while it does have a history of christian influence it is not currently but was at inception secular

while it promotes 1 religeon it is not secular

the idea is not to rip away every shred of christianity, it is to remove ALL religeous icons and religeous practices from goverment, currently the state is not secular it is theistic in the it promotes one religeon follows one religeon

it is an attempt to remove religeous leaning from somthing that is not and shouldnt be religeous

goverment does not handel matters of faith, it handels matters of life and its qualiaties and improvments

if the goverment removed every religeous icon of any form from state buildings stop praying to god it would still function in exactly the same way(for the most part) the men inside would still hold exactly the same faith

saying a prayer to god or allah or any number of gods wont really make any differance to the way its bieng run, but as long as it only promotes 1 religeon through its icon and actions it excludes others

if the goverment ever becasme secular as it supposed to be as laid out in the constitution america would still be a country of predominantley christain faith, there would be just as many churches, infact very little would change in the counrty and how it works

the only thing bieng changed is its promoting a perticular religeon which it shouldnt do if it is by the people for the people to grant ALL religeons equality

I must admit though from our respective bias, me as Christian and you as Atheist we can argue our own perspectives of history and our different interpretations of ideology and definitions for eternity
Where I see an Atheist Regime you see a personality cult "religion"
Where you see an evil Catholic dictator, I see a self worshiping Atheist

maybe look in to what athiesm is would help this

hitler was an evil dictator and a lunatic who also happened to be catholic, if he ahd been jewish he woiuld have used the torrah to confirm his views and used shared faith in that to recruit for the crazy, same goes for if he was islamic or hindu

infact the only faith i know of he couldnt do this with the text is buddism becasue it doesnt have an buddah issued death or punishment by death to warp to fit his crazy

he didnt do it becasue he was catholic, but it helped him do it becasue he had that shared faith with other christians

had he been an athiest he still would have been as equally isnane and probabibly tried to do somthing similar(not sure how he would paint jews as the perticular bad guys though) he would have had a much harder time recruiting the masses to go along with it though as athiesm isnt a shared faith

and theres no perticular atheistic texts to warp to his view of the world

But I am interested then in asking you, if you had come to power and you had to implement your government as an Atheist what policies would you implement?

persoanlly

id remove reference to any 1 perticular faith in goverment, its supoosed to be for all peple no matter the faith or lack of so i would make it so

id put much more money into education, smart kids today builds a better world tommorrow for everyone

radicalise the social and health systems a bit so it works for all not the fews who can afford it

science funding for medical purposes would improve also, they are after all the ones that stop us all dying of horrible things and starving to death

one thing i would do churches wont like is remove state funding and tax breaks, if you really need light shows and great sound systems and billion dollar mega churches to teach gods word your doing it wrong

and that money saved and given by the church would be used to help everyone not just the ones that go to that perticular church

it wont be utopia but hopefully it would be a little bit nicer for everyone

religeon as ive said isnt a bad thing within its self so no censorship required and its a terrible two edged blade so best left above the mantel piece as decorative rather then functional, and as long as they dont start running around blowing stuff up or each other up theres no problem

As for myself I would question any move I made with "is it for Christ's glory or for my own glory?"

id simply ask is it good for everyone as a person

dont really care if i get glorified for it or not, a thank you card would be nice but any big ceremonies and wot not are a waste of money that could be better spent

As for your self, you have no god so what would govern your conscience?

honesty, caring, love, compassion, ability to make a differance

religeon may pretend it holds a monopoly on these things but they were around a hell of a lot longer then christianity

they happen in nature(thats where we got them from) and ive never seen an elephant or gorilla with a bible

we may not agree jesus was the son of god or even existed but like buddha and ghandi and a whole raft of other peple they said some dam good stuff

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. ~ Mahatma Gandhi

a sentiment i often find my self agreeing with around these forums

[edit on 29/12/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 29/12/08 by noobfun]

The argument I always hear for removing Christian tradition from Government and state institutions is always, what about the Muslims, Hindus, Jews ect ect
If I was to immigrate to a Muslim nation and demand they remove Muslim tradition from there parliaments and laws as it isn’t multicultural, I don’t expect my head would stay on my shoulders for very long
The results of a Christian culture are the States and institutions that stand there of, they are tried and tested over 1500 years of Christian culture in western Europe thru war and conflict, dictatorships, corrupt monarchs and conflicts of ideology and regimes
You can judge the quality of the soil by observing the nature of the tree that stands upon it, and Christian based society still offers the greatest quality of life in the modern world
These peoples of many world religions moved to Christian Nations to enjoy the freedoms offered by Christian Nations, but as conflict between ideologies, has again reared its ugly head most notably in the form of Islamic extremists, and so Atheism offers the solution, a non denominational, non cultural, non sovereign nation, or a multicultural nation
For at least 25 years the UN has pushed for multiculturalism in western societies and the results are evident, apathy toward culture, suspicion toward religion and a general loss of national identity and yes your beloved Atheism has spread rapidly
If we believe in nothing then we won’t fight for anything
It is indeed a great solution to world conflict
I argue that the uprooting of Christianity from western cultures will lead to a new Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany but on a world scale implemented by the UN
You claim Nazi Germany was a result of a Christian extremist I say he used Christianity to seduce the masses to implement his Godless society
Soviet Russia you claim to be a religion and I would agree if you stated it was a Godless religion of man
Communism is based on Lutheran teaching, Marx a Jew by birth converted to Lutheranism and began the manifesto not long after, he borrowed much from Thomas Moores Utopia, who borrowed much from the teaching of Christ
It has been said that Christ was the first communist but more a communalist I would say, the very thing the Russian Revolution offered was a perfect communal society, but later it would prove a Godless nightmare as any opposing authority was snuffed out especially the Russian Church
The very thing offered by modern Atheists, a Christian style society with out Christ

But as you say my interpretation of Atheism must be wrong? Let me share my understanding of Atheism with you then and you can correct me if i am wrong?
Atheism is a critique of reason, you believe in what is rational and physical, tangible or scientifically proven?
Is it not scientifically proven that the universe began at a point of singularity? A point at which the entire universe is compacted into the space of an atom and smaller, at which point all mathematical and scientific laws dissolve and this tiny universe simply disappears? But some laws survive as our reason dictates and mathematics, like cause and effect or X+Y=universe or 0+0=0, 0x0=0, 0/0=0, 0-0=0. Nothing begets nothing
If something exists then something must surely have existed and for eternity
I know the many hypothetical solutions that theoretical science has offered but the answer can easily be found in philosophy as Plato derived from pure reason, if we are, then there must have been for ever, if created then there must be a creator, to create he must have a will, and if a will he must have reason, so it turns out we are in the creators image
This is the reason for my aversion to Atheism, as for your quote from Gandhi there are many examples that would give it credence but there are many more examples that would oppose it.

So here's where I get lost...

This country was supposed to be founded...freedom of religion and yet the State was never supposed to choose an official religion...so how are we Christian again?

-Kyo

The founding fathers were Christians I believe; they wished to escape the madness of the Schism in Europe, and so instituted into state free will they wanted peace and freedom of worship
They reverted back to the words of Christ and acted with Christian intent when forming the constitution

I must point out whether Lutheran or Catholic if one claims to be Christian then one should follow the words of Christ and act accordingly

Originally posted by Notroh est
The founding fathers were Christians I believe; they wished to escape the madness of the Schism in Europe, and so instituted into state free will they wanted peace and freedom of worship

some were christian some were deists and a few by modern standards were athiest/agnostic

They reverted back to the words of Christ and acted with Christian intent when forming the constitution

they really didnt

its founded on shared morality and common law

shared morality comes from just that a mix of the best of everything, not just christain, remeber morality existed long before the bible

common law, was around loing before the bible, if it had been based on biblical law the actual laws in the bible come from 1 or 2 of the ten comandments and then Deuteronomy ...... when everything carries a death setence its really not a moral law system

ill go one further, they actually did everything in thier power to prevent christianity in any form from having govermental influence, america is in terms of religeon the complete opposite of which they hoped to create

I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799

its not one sect that did it but one religeon which is just the same

The 'Wall of Separation,' Again:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808) ME 16:320. This is his second kown use of the term "wall of separation," here quoting his own use in the Danbury Baptist letter. This wording of the original was several times upheld by the Supreme Court as an accurate description of the Establishment Clause: Reynolds (98 US at 164, 1879); Everson (330 US at 59, 1947); McCollum (333 US at 232, 1948)

jefferson loves an atheist (coludnt resist)

america is a nationalistic republic theocracy

it was meant to be a secular republic where no religeon held weight of goverment, where goverment favored no religeon above another, and the people were favoured to hold any religeon they liked as long as they didnt go around trying to kill each other or persecute in any way another person or group for not sharing that belief

god and country gods country, how many times have you seen this kind of thing written or heard it said, it promotes 1 religeon which has mass goverment infulence which is in complete opposition to the intent of the founding fathers

you say atheists want to tear christianity out of america, no just get it out of the goverment and back into church and on the streets where it should have always been

the dreams been broken its time to fix it

I must point out whether Lutheran or Catholic if one claims to be Christian then one should follow the words of Christ and act accordingly

i agree

So big Tom Jefferson himself didn't want one to take over another...seems pretty damn cut and dry to me

-Kyo

Originally posted by Notroh est
The argument I always hear for removing Christian tradition from Government and state institutions is always, what about the Muslims, Hindus, Jews ect ect

how about it was never meant to be this way, the founding fathers did thier very best to prevent it

how about sticking religeous icons and forming the countrys law based on christian values has lead to

one of the most religeous countries of the western world, which also happens to be one of the most immoral, highest homicide rate, highest general crime rate, one of the lowest education standards, one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates, high rates of poverty, low standards of universal health care

the christian majority(generalsied i know i hate generalisations sorry) favours teaching abstenace rather then educate kids in contraception, telling them not to have sex doesnt work so at least teach them how to be safe and not get pregenant while they are still ignoring the abstenanace teachings

lower teenage preganancy reduces abortion numbers, reduces the number of children put in to the social system. i dont think theres many christains that can honesty and morally say that this isnt a good thing reducing the number of abortions, reducing the number of children in an underfunded system so it stops becoming so underfunded and is better able to raise up the children it has not just shove them through the system and spit them out but actually help them

lower STD rates lowers medical expenses as a whole, lowers death rates. how is this a bad thing?

If I was to immigrate to a Muslim nation and demand they remove Muslim tradition from there parliaments and laws as it isn’t multicultural, I don’t expect my head would stay on my shoulders for very long

becasue thier goverment is a thoecracy, which america is but never should have been

had america really been founded on biblical law and morality it would have been similar law system to sharia

it is built in to the countries roots that islam is law, it is built into america that common law is the way and religeon should keep out of politics and do what it should be doing teaching morality and ways to attain an afterlife through that morality

The results of a Christian culture are the States and institutions that stand there of, they are tried and tested over 1500 years of Christian culture in western Europe thru war and conflict, dictatorships, corrupt monarchs and conflicts of ideology and regimes

and america was concieved to prevent just that

while europe were still persecuting and killing each other on the basis of religeous sects, america was to be the opposite where no religeon or sect within held power over another

but even in europe the law sysetms are not based on the bible, the shared morality is shared not biblical

You can judge the quality of the soil by observing the nature of the tree that stands upon it, and Christian based society still offers the greatest quality of life in the modern world

no secular goverment with religeon allowed to do its thing but told to stay away from goverment is what turned europe from the thoecratic bloodbaths into what it has become

becasue somthing has history of christainity it does not mean that it is the way it is because of christianity

These peoples of many world religions moved to Christian Nations to enjoy the freedoms offered by Christian Nations,

secular goverments with chirtianity bieng the dominant religeon

but as conflict between ideologies, has again reared its ugly head most notably in the form of Islamic extremists, and so Atheism offers the solution,

do it how it was supposed to have been done originally thats not offering a new solution thats pointing out youor doing it wrong

a non denominational, non cultural, non sovereign nation, or a multicultural nation

religeon is free to do what it does, culture is a part of that its part of what the country stands for, most cultures has no founding in religeon anyway. its a removal of one relgions influence over all other religeons

the ability to make policies for the good of all not restrict them becasue it doesnt agree with one sides book

For at least 25 years the UN has pushed for multiculturalism in western societies and the results are evident, apathy toward culture,

culture is still there culture is still doing what it does change

it may not be the culture you want but the UN has nothing to do with that, people make culture for them selves based on thier situation and surroundings

pop culture didnt come from the UN it came from changes in music and film and fashions and art its derived from people for people

you cant mandate culture without heavily supressing anything that doesnt fit which is totolatariansim, i think thats a bad thing and from your writings i think youl agree

suspicion toward religion and a general loss of national identity and yes your beloved Atheism has spread rapidly

religeon has built its own suspicion, the more fundamental a religeon becomes the more strange it gets. when it berates known and proven things becasue it doesnt fit its book it opens its self to riddicule, when violence carried out in the anme of peaceful religeon it brings into question its peaceable nature

deffine national identity, it changes as does culture it grows and alters and ebbs, do you mean its loosing its nationalistic this is gods country mentality? nationalism is still big its still there people still love america because its america, its not a loss of national identity its a loss of religeosity and replaced with somthing real pride in the country becasue of the country

its not gods country, if god made the world every country is gods country

and atheism is on the increase becasue its harder to shut us up now we cant be imprisoned like it was in europe, we cant be classed as mentally ill and sent to asylums anymore, we cant be subjegated and persecuted as freely although it still happens, with new communication we can find each other and realise we arnt such a minority we arnt just 1 or 2 people in the country

this realisation there is more of us then anyone thought has allowed us to stand up and say hey were here, and has allowed others to realise its ok to not believe in god. the more people that stand up the mre people are honest with them selves and stop playing along becasue they dont know what else to do or just keep quiet becasue they are the only 1 they know

If we believe in nothing then we won’t fight for anything

well atheists believe things, most of them exactly the same as you, we just dont believe in god

we have plenty to fight for cival liberty, freedom of speech, freedom from religeous bigotry and persecution, theres plenty of thing to fight for and worth to be fought for, we dont need to call someone an infidel and go campaigning aginst them becasue its not in our book to find a worthy casue to champion

look at whats happened on youttube, many christains censor comments to prevent athiest replying they see censorship as a legitimate argument, but when christain videos were bieng banned for bieng against islam suddenly they start calling for support against censorship, spot the irony?





dispite thier censorship they were supported

It is indeed a great solution to world conflict

so is love thy neighbour, if only more of it was spread around and it actualy went further then next door in practice

when we stop hitting people over the head with religeon and classing people as saved and unsaved, godly and satanic its a hell of a lot easier to accept people for what they are people just like us

I argue that the uprooting of Christianity from western cultures will lead to a new Soviet Russia

you mean stalinist russia, and i agree. which is why were not trying to tear out christianity were just telling it to do what it should be doing teaching morality and ways to use it to reach the after life it belongs in and stop trying to control goverment so it conforms to 2000 year old rules

no one wants to ban religeon, thats persecution. and silly for us to switch form the persecuted to the persecutor

we would just like it to be a bit more sensible

or Nazi Germany

got mit uns?

You claim Nazi Germany was a result of a Christian extremist I say he used Christianity to seduce the masses to implement his Godless society

his godless society was based on and populated by christians, for christians

read mein kampf written 10 years before he came to power,i have a wealth of historical documents and speeches to back it up from before he ahd power to when he was in power.im not speaking from opinion, or wishing to distance hitler from my religeon im using historical facts and quotes and his own words and writtings

www.nobeliefs.com... this points out why what your saying has no foundations and is pure speculation to distance him from shared faith

www.nobeliefs.com...
www.infidels.org...

and even if he were just a crazy thiest and just pretended to be an actual christian where does the blame lie that christianity couldnt tell the differance between fake and real faith and followed it anyway?

if he was athiestic then why persecute the athiests? go after the communists the gypsies the jews and just ignore the athiests having them around later would help his cause if he wanted to remove christianity

why carry on after he got in power and got the war rolling thier was no need to keep declaring faith he could have just carried on and lessened his reference

[edit on 30/12/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by Notroh est
Soviet Russia you claim to be a religion and I would agree if you stated it was a Godless religion of man

thats exactly what a personality cult is

its a quasi religeon that attempts to elevate the leader to demi-god status all powerful all knowing all seeing

its not a denial of gods existance its an attempt to make the leader godlike in power and ability and to command the same love and devotion as exibited towards a supernatural god

Communism is based on Lutheran teaching, Marx a Jew by birth converted to Lutheranism and began the manifesto not long after, he borrowed much from Thomas Moores Utopia, who borrowed much from the teaching of Christ

so marxists socailaism and communism that was spawned from it has its origins in christ then not atheism

It has been said that Christ was the first communist but more a communalist I would say,

to say he was the first is wrong

buddah predates christ and said similar things, infact some buddism was smuggled into the bible and refferenced to jesus saying them, we know buddism was in the middle east at the correct time period so did it influence jesus directly? or influence the later writers of the gospels?

the very thing the Russian Revolution offered was a perfect communal society, but later it would prove a Godless nightmare as any opposing authority was snuffed out especially the Russian Church

it persecuted anyone that it thought was a threat

any politcal or religeous group that held some power were treated equally

The very thing offered by modern Atheists, a Christian style society with out Christ

please stop trying to re-write history

europes laws systems predate christainity in alomst every single case, and where they dont they are borrowed from countries who's did

it was the very act of creating secular goverment that limited religeons ability to go persecute the other sects of christianity and religeon with impunity as it had throughout history

But as you say my interpretation of Atheism must be wrong? Let me share my understanding of Atheism with you then and you can correct me if i am wrong? Atheism is a critique of reason, you believe in what is rational and physical, tangible or scientifically proven?

thats fairly accurate, so how do you get from there to wanting to destroy all religeon and persecute christains? how do you get from there to totolatarianism or communism

science shows were are all the same species the same race homo sapien sapien, we are all unique at the genetic level and in our understanding of things but still the same

if we are all the same then persecution has no logic to it, persecution and censorship becomes irational, theres no basis to force conformity

acceptance of differance and using the greater similariteis to improve for all sounds rather umm completley opposite to what you were saying athiests wanted doesnt it

this is what puts it at odds with religeon, becasue it promotes differance saved/unsaved and promotes what it feels is best for its self and for its own not for everyone,

which is why we want religeon to get back to religeon and leave the day to day running of the world to people who dont use 2000 year old books, the bible promotes slavery, jesus said dont beat them to death and try and be nice to them, but i think we both agree slavery is a bad thing

slavery was abolished not becasue of religeous belief, but by morality found outside the bibles words

Is it not scientifically proven that the universe began at a point of singularity? A point at which the entire universe is compacted into the space of an atom and smaller, at which point all mathematical and scientific laws dissolve and this tiny universe simply disappears? But some laws survive as our reason dictates and mathematics, like cause and effect or X+Y=universe or 0+0=0, 0x0=0, 0/0=0, 0-0=0. Nothing begets nothing

topic jumping?

its based on numerous mathmatical equations supporting it, enourmous amounts of observational data supporting it, and no evidence discrediting it .... what do you class as proven? the fact we dont yet understand every single bit of it means what?

just we have more fun to be had more things to poke prod and understand, the universe is expanding in all directions the logical conclusion is that it was once a lot more compact then it was and originated at a central point or area

the big bang is the best conclusion we have based on ALL the evidence maths and observations, its subject to change and revison as new things are found out but thats a good thing because it gets better not worse

If something exists then something must surely have existed and for eternity

have you existed for eternity? has the computer your typing on exusted for eternity? gross generalisation

even somthing has existed eternally it doesnt mean the state its found in now is the way it has always been

and if somnthing is eternal it doesnt make it intellegent or creative it just means its been there and will continue to be, to assume and gift it with other aspects its flawed

I know the many hypothetical solutions that theoretical science has offered but the answer can easily be found in philosophy as Plato derived from pure reason, if we are, then there must have been for ever, if created then there must be a creator,

there was somthing that created the reaction yes

but it then stops bieng logical if you ascribe that creatorreaction with humanistic personality traits and powers until evidence for this can be derived and presented

to create he must have a will, and if a will he must have reason, so it turns out we are in the creators image

if i fill a vacum flask with hydrogen andd oxygen and apply heat ozone form and water forms and other molecules through chemical reations and applied energy

where is the will? the intellegence? the reason for it to decide what to become?

this reliese on the the principle if i make things through intelligence then i must have been made too by the same method, its poor assumption

you can say god kick started the whole thing designed the system and let it go in a 14billion year old dominoe chain and sat back to watch (if i had a god one who could easily pull this kind of stunt would be one that shows great power and future knowledge)

to say god just stuck stuff together and that was it like a big scientist or mechanic in the sky is kinda weak in comparrison

This is the reason for my aversion to Atheism,

what we want a better world for everyone? a better standard of living for everyone? a better health system and education system for everyone? where no perticular belief is held above another so all are equally accepted and equally allowed to be questioned to check its worthyness for the individual? where we dont think the worlds going to end and jesus comes back so we try and make a better world inthe hope the human race can stick around for a very long time?

i can see why your so aversed to people like that actually having a voice, why the largest minority have a hand in how things get done

its discicable i have to agree ill go change my mind imediatley and start looking forward to the end of the world becasue jesus is comming back when it happens

as for your quote from Gandhi there are many examples that would give it credence but there are many more examples that would oppose it.

i agree there are some very christian chirstians around here and a pile of very unchristian christians too

if religeon ever works out how to breed more of the first type and less of the second opposition to christainity would melt away


[edit on 30/12/08 by noobfun]