If mankind is to survive, then religion must continue.

reply to post by Alienmojo


Ok I am gonna try to be nice and not sound like a knowitall but I really have to get this off my chest.
The problem in the world is the religious.Why do people get so mad at religion??
Well first of all the religious groups are the first to tell you that you need to be saved.Lots of talking...they are about as saved as you are and still need to blab on.Religious people talking like they actually know when they know as much as anyone else on the planet.
Second is that it is false identification of yourself....I am INSERT GROUP.Its group thought which is very dangerous.Don't be led...you have the GOD given ability to think for yourself without GOD getting pissed off at you.Its the group that gets mad if you don't conform to THEIR standards.

Third I could go around the world and help people without a title or a cause.I don't need to be religious to do it.It should be human to want to help...religious groups love to take credit for that.The old look at me look at me...I am doing something good,please take note that I am INSERT GROUP.
Fourth.How many wars have been fought bcuz of religion?
I don't have those fights bcuz I don't as an idividual care to hear about someones beliefs...if they actually believed it then they wouldn't have to try to convince me,or if they are trying to convince me it is bcuz they are pompous people who think what they think is better.Either way its obvious that the believer doesn't really believe what he has read in their teachings.If he did then he would shut the hell up and live what he has been taught.
The shallowest waters can sometimes make the most noise.
To me its obvious that there are two problems in the world....MONEY and RELIGION.

Go do a bit of research on how many wars have been fought on this earth and how many were based on religious hatred.They go to war thinking god is on their side.I thought killing was wrong??Hmmmm
I think religion is pure ignorance.

I didn't reply to the other thread as I saw that as a given.I wanted to reply to this thread partly bcuz I am blown away that there are still people on this planet that can't see what the finger is pointing at...all they see is the finger.
Sorry if this sounds mean or harsh...I don't mean to offend.

Originally posted by Alienmojo
If mankind is to survive, then religion must continue.

MY OPINION - if mankind is to survive then 'religion' must end and SPIRITUALITY must continue (or be born) - it must overtake organized blood thirsty religions.

the problem isnt people believing in zeus or whatever

the problem is that when a ORGANIZED INSTITUTION is formed, it almost invariably is used as an umbrella to hide behind while you commit crimes

look at the different forms of institutions we have, and you see the same sorry tale

govt religion charitys corporations etc

they are just tools used to Protect sin and promote it

they are not the cause , the cause is human nature

Humans suck, they are jerks, its our nature .

reply to post by Alienmojo


Is there a particular reason you are intentionally plagiarizing this thread?

Your post is almost 100% verbatim what the OP wrote in his/her thread, with the excpetion that you take the opposite opinion. If you disgaree, fine, but at least have the decency to write your own post and not copy and paste a member's post from another thread and try to pass it off as your own with a few sentences changed.

You beat me to it. I was about to say this thread is 100% lame if only for the fact that you totally copied it from someone else and changed a few words around. Plagiarist.

Why does the Opening Post sound very much like this one?.

Surly your opposing views should be stated in the thread I have just given rather than starting an entirely new one. It is plain to see you are already aware of the previous thread since your Opening Post is worded very similar.

This is nothing but a cheap shot in capitalizing on the interest generated from this thread.

Opps, Freenrgy2 beat me to it.

[edit on 24/12/2008 by Freelancer]

This world would be far more harmonious if religion had never existed. Religion is twisted spirituality. If people were more spiritual and less religious we would be in a completely different world.

Double post. Opps.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by tigermoff]

reply to post by tigermoff

Well said.
Religion can and is corrupted, spirituality can not be corrupted.

reply to post by Alienmojo


Has anyone else noticed a drastic increase of response topics to highly provocative other new topics?

anyway, im not here to bash the OP. It seems that my post in the original post of this topic (that you're [OP] responding to) has overlooked my response. So I'm here to not only re-post it, and hopefully get some sort of acknowledgment, along with correcting some misinterpreted bits i've read in your first post.

heres my original post

Im an Atheist and i am not really against religion per say, but what it has become. Having something to believe in is fine and even a nessisity for some people. Some people just just think that "without enforcement of 'law'(gods word/hell) there would be chaos" and all that. Some people need something to prey for to get that insperational boost they need to get through a tough time.

However, (in America/Canada mostly) corruption in religion is an astronomical problem. Most people don't know what any of their own religion means and stands for. They don't know why there is Christmas, why their is Easter, and so on because its been manipulated by corporations and society in a form that does in-fact brain was people (in a sense).

But! that doesn't mean that religion is wrong and not needed. Many religions stand for great good, "believe in your fellow man" "love your neighbor" and so on. But there is also the great negatives of scientific illiteracy, ignorance, wars... However, all these negatives would still exist with-out religion. The lack of all religion wont solve any problems, just as is with everyone being religious. Both of them have very strong negative points.

And on to some of the misinterpretations i see in your OP.

In generalizing an example of yours to why religion can better a person, you say that many religious people go out of their way and use their time and money to help others. which is correct, however its not as if you need a religion to do these. I myself am volunteering to help breed an endangered species on the cayman islands next month for around 3 months (i am atheist, to remind you). Bill Gates donates Billions of dollars to help find cures for things like Aids and Malaria. here's a more detailed list

en.wikipedia.org...

The Gates Foundation has quickly become a major influence upon global health; the approximately US$800 million that the foundation gives every year for global health approaches the annual budget of the United Nations' World Health Organization (193 nations) and is comparable to the funds given to fight infectious disease by the United States Agency for International Development.[16] The Foundation currently provides 17% (US$86 million in 2006) of the world budget for the attempted eradication of poliomyelitis (polio).[17]

The Global Health Program's other significant grants include

The Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization
The foundation gave The Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization a donation of US$750 million on 25 January 2005.[18][19]

The Institute for OneWorld Health
The foundation gave The Institute for OneWorld Health a donation of nearly US$10 million to support the organization's work on a drug for visceral leishmaniasis (VL).

Children's Vaccine Program
The Children's Vaccine Program, run by the Program for Appropriate Technology in Health (PATH), received a donation of US$27 million to help vaccinate against Japanese encephalitis on 9 December 2003.[20]

University of Washington Department of Global Health
The foundation provided approximately US$30 million for the foundation of the new Department of Global Health at the University of Washington in Seattle. The donation promoted three of the Foundation's target areas: education, Pacific Northwest and global health. The foundation also lead a study to increase access to high education globally.

HIV Research
The foundation has donated a grand total of US$287 million to various HIV/AIDS researchers. The money was split between sixteen different research teams across the world, on the condition that they share their findings with one another.[21]

I believe Gates is Atheist as well.

You don't need god to find good in this world.

As much as i would like religion to further ones esteem in humanity, the vast majority of followers do not. in fact 90%-92% of all prisoners in the states are Theists.

I am really sorry to here that without religion you would be so much worse off. I am really truly sorry to see that many religious people believe that without the thought of a god, man kind would run through chaos.

I'm sorry if this sounded like an attack, But there are a few things that bugged me in that OP of yours.

reply to post by Freenrgy2


Hi. Seeing as that other thread has been on the front page for some time most people would have recognized this as satire as soon as they saw the title. And seeing as the OP has actually stayed with the debate, whereas the OP in the other thread opened by saying he'd put anyone who disagreed with him on 'ignore', I say Alienmojo has proved his mettle.


reply to post by chapter29 & Daniem

Religions are fairy tales...

When it comes to fairy tales, atheism makes Alice in Wonderland look like a treatise on reasoned extrapolation.

The evidence that God is real is there every time you open your eyes and see order and the laws of physics and chemistry at work in the world and the cosmos, every time someone takes the trouble to ponder the biochemical marvels that sustain life in a single 'simple' organism (not to mention the human body) - far more complex than anything billions of intelligent humans could ever put together.

Believing inanimate rocks and elements somehow came together by chance to form billions of life forms infinitely more complex than all the world's computers put together defies maths, logic, and, frankly sanity itself. But no worries - we can't see who did it or even conceive a conscious Being great enough to conceive and then put together an entire universe, laws and all.

...So if we can't fathom it, we don't believe the evidence. That is the logical fallacy of atheism. Well, only one of them, if we are to be honest. Then there is the suggestion it is possible to be sure about a negative - 'There is no God' - (espoused by some, not all who don't believe) or the fallacy that chance mutations could lead to exquisite designs from the fish that bejewel coral reefs to birds of paradise to Queens of Sheba.

For Christians there is the evidence God personally stepped into history in the form of a man, having foretold the same over the course of several millennia. The incarnation. ("They shall call his name Immanuel, which means 'God with us'." Happy Christmas.)

Evidence abounds.

What is not there is total, seeing-is-believing proof.

Which is where faith comes in. And those without it ought to realise faith in God can be based on pure logic alone. Mocking it all too often belies a hatred towards it, the God who is it's object, or the people who espouse it - whether irrational or based on awareness of personal moral shortcomings.

Contemplation of and yearning for the sublime, the ineffable, the Infinite Originator Himself has brought mankind many of it's greatest heights of literature, poetry, philosophy, morality, integrity and inward beauty.

Charlatans, rogues and wolves in sheep's clothing only serve to emphasize the truth of the True Light.

Ridding the world of religion would open the door to a never-ending spiral of egotism and consequent conflict, not to mention brutality at all levels of society.

Think 'Lord of the Flies'.

It is often knowledge of a higher intelligence and moral authority that has kept the world from descending into a never-ending succession of brutal, unjust dictatorships.

It cannot be denied that particular people/groups have sought to justify all manner of evil on the back of their religion. But when you look at the broad swathe of history religious beliefs have brought social cohesion, social and legal justice, individual responsibility, emancipation, honesty and selfless personal integrity to the world.

It is hypocrites who are the problem.

All religions, at their heart, are honorable, moral and peaceful. It is through the selective interpretation people take of the Bible, the Koran, etc, that leads to confusion, hate, destruction, and bigotry. Religion is not the problem. Those who distort its message are. I think so many people around the world nowadays have given religion a bad name, they are a disgraceful example...but pure religion, being a faithful servant to whichever God(s) you believe in, having compassion and tolerance and love for others and a willingness to live a moral and just life, can never be a bad/wrong path to follow.

Originally posted by Alienmojo

First, if you think religion should be continued, then flag and star right now.
I'm not going to post links and sources, because this is just a statement that I firmly believe in.

I just sat and watched the Bill Maher movie "Religulous" about religion, and although I know he hand picked the wackiest of all people to put in his film and did some creative editing to boost the point, the bottom line is that Bill Maher is using a satiric movie to bolster his anti-religious rheteric.

War, Policy, and pretty much everything else that effects the growth of man as a species is driven by people who don't use religion to direct them(Unless you are speaking of some mid-eastern countries, of course). I don't see President Bush or the PM of England using religion to direct anything they do. The idea that they would is just fanciful whimsy.

Religion must continue, end of story. Logic and common sense are fine when you are faced with a problem, but when religion is used correctly and sincerely it can greatly help with life's problems and how one deals with them.

Oh and guess what, logic tells me I just got a whole bunch of people angry... or at least one person in particular. I, unlike some, have no problem discussing this with anyone... after all this is a forum if I remember correctly, not just a place to spout one's illogical ideas and then run away. Disagreeing with people is fine as long is it is done in a logical and respectful way.

So If you don't like what I have to say... that is fine because that is your God-given right.

I'm sorry if some people hate religion because they didn't get that red tri-cycle they asked God for when they were 8. I will be the first to agree that many people use religion to benefit their own ends. However... when used correctly and sincerely religion actually helps the world. Let's give some examples that my friend didn't bother to include in his rant.

Missionaries, church goers, and others who give of their free time and money to help others who are worse off then others. Good Samaritans who help others less fortunate in their God's name. Yes, I know there are those that kill in their God's name.. but that is wrong. I'm talking about the good people who do good because of what they believe in.

What I truly feel is occurring here is that people are using religion as a scapegoat for their problems. WTC? Religious fanatics. Our countries' financial crisis? Must be those religious nuts again.

I'm here to tell you that the basis of all religion is the betterment of one's self through the helping of others. This can lead one to heaven, nirvanah, or whatever you wish to call it. When religion is perverted it is used as an excuse to terrorize and hurt others. Those people are wrong, of course! However, it is my contention that religion, in and of itself, is a good thing.

So all I ask is not to persecute all religious beliefs. I know mine are quite simple and it actually hurts to hear people hating religious people so much. Without religion I would not be the caring and helpful person that I am... and humble (LOL)... sorry, trying to make a point here so I am putting humility aside (I'll be the first to tell you that I fail at being good quite often... but I keep trying).

[edit on 23-12-2008 by Alienmojo]

1. Religious belief has caused more fragmentation and conflict than any other ideology…Christianity alone has 34,000 different sub groups( Source: World Christian Encyclopedia)
   
2. Religions condition people to feel guilty for natural inclinations, each claiming to offer the only path to forgiveness and salvation.
   
3. Religion creates nothing except intangible emotional solace for those who require it.
   
4. Likewise, dominant worldviews, such a theistic religion, operate with the same social irrelevancy. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and all of the others, exist as barriers to personal and social growth, for each group perpetuates a closed worldview…and this finite understanding that they acknowledge is simply not possible in an emergent universe.
   Yet, religion has succeeded in shutting down the awareness of this emergence by instilling the psychological distortion of Faith upon its followers, where logic and new information is rejected, in favor of traditionalized, outdated beliefs.
   
5. A cursory glance at the suppressed history of religion reveals that even the foundational myths themselves are emergent culminations, developed through influence, over time.
   For example, a cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith is the death and resurrection of Christ. This notion is so important, that the Bible itself states: "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain"(1 Cor 15:14)
   

Funny how I watch people cling to religion when they are going through hard times, or are getting old and only worry about going to hell.

It's the fact that Reality is so powerful, it's too powerful for people to face, so Religion offers them an escape from reality. It is Religion that provides this escape for people, just to make someone feel like they been forgiven by this unseen force.

While others will use to to be rewarded after death. Is this not selfish?

Religion causes war and division upon human beings upon the planet.


I beg to differ, If mankind is to survive, then religion and the monetary institutions must cease to exist. Because we've had Religion for centuries and look where it has lead us.

The true divisiveness of the Cosmic Creation is why you are here. We are all part of the life force and we are destroying ourselves because of Nationalism, Religion and Monetary systems that divide us and cause constant conflict's with ourselves.

People search their entire lives looking for "GOD" when they don't even try to understand themselves.

Look within and the true god of this cosmic creation will find you. Your reality is based purely on what we have shaped society into for centuries.

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. -J.Krishnamurti


[edit on 24/12/2008 by TheInfamousOne]

[edit on 24/12/2008 by TheInfamousOne]

[edit on 24/12/2008 by TheInfamousOne]

Originally posted by pause4thought
Hi. Seeing as that other thread has been on the front page for some time most people would have recognized this as satire as soon as they saw the title. And seeing as the OP has actually stayed with the debate, whereas the OP in the other thread opened by saying he'd put anyone who disagreed with him on 'ignore', I say Alienmojo has proved his mettle.

Sir, I was never arguing any of this. My comment was based on the intentional plagairizing of the OP from the other thread. It struck me odd that he couldn't come up with his own thoughts and had to borrow almost word from word (i.e. cut & paste).

I enjoy how you gleaned so much more from my post than was clearly stated.

Originally posted by Alienmojo

First, if you think religion should be continued, then flag and star right now.

I stopped right there. No Star/Flag.

If you rely on asking such before the argument is made, it is not a valid argument to make, IMO.

Stars and/or Flags should be made on the merit of the post put forward, NOT the opinion of the OP.

reply to post by FlyersFan


FlyersFan, I rarely agree with you on other issues, but you took the words right out of my mouth....or keyboard, as appropriate.

With all respect to the OP, 'religion' is the problem, as has been pointed out in the preceding pages --- not the 'beliefs' that inspire.

A belief or 'faith', if you prefer is fine. It is each individual's inalienable right.

It is ONLY when ONE GROUPS' beliefs begin to infringe on anothers', that conflict begins to ensue. Why is this?? Well, notice I mentioned 'GROUP'....that being an assembly of (mostly) like-minded 'individuals' who wish to get together and proclaim to others how They (the others) should Feel, and Think, and Worship. Sounds rather dictatorial to me.

Taken to the extreme, that sort of religious 'fervor' has, in our Human past, indeed resulted in untold tragedies of Human suffering. I don't think anyone can deny this?

I don't proclaim any answers....but I am reminded of a term...."Blind Faith". I take that to mean a 'faith' that is resistant to any evidence that contradicts its core 'belief', no matter how compelling that evidence may be. And, I know this might bring trouble to my doorstep, for saying so....but the general lack of scientific knowledge by the majority of Humans on this planet is symptomatic of our inability to move forward in these discussions.

To summarize, building on the OP's point: I disagree with the premise of 'religion' being a necessary requirement for Mankind (Human) survival. At this juncture, Humans must learn some humility (that includes understanding that until some incredible advancement in Space Travel technology) this is the ONLY planet we can live on.

This Planet has seen a lot of dominant species come-and-go, and Nature wouldn't shed a tear if WE disappeared, because life goes on.....

(Hmmmm.....what sort of 'religion' will the NEXT sentient species invent? )

(Second hmmmm.....do ALL sentient species in our Galaxy invent 'religion? OK, discuss!)

reply to post by pause4thought


Sanity...interesting you used that word...

For a moment, let's look at this from another angle...

How about recognizing that something, be it a her/him/the all-spark/ george burns, other than an omnipotent being put everything in motion...?

We are just part of the petri dish and I have no problem with that 'possibility'...the 'possibility' I do have an issue with is the one where the individual must adhere to dogma, put into place by those that do NOT have my best interest in mind, before the reward...

You want to go through life with the blinders on, be my guest...but, if you ever choose to lose those shackles and take the journey without the crutch - then I applaud you, for the journey can be lonely and bitter at times; but the pay off is ten-fold as I know what's coming, where you are gonna be let down something big...





content edit!



[edit on 12/24/2008 by chapter29]

The.Man.Called.Gilgamesh

First off alienmojo, you straight up took robwerdens post idea. for shame for being unoriginal.

www.geocities.com...

theres a list of biblical contradictions and failed prophecies that i have myself verified to be accurate.

also, anyone calling themselved the "chosen people" is bunk. if god created all humans, that would be like your parents telling you they love your sister more than you. rubbish

eventually your abrahamic propaganda will be right next to Odin and Zeus in the museum ... cant wait for they day.

live your life by philosophy and not myth, critical thought and not opinion.

happy festivus

Originally posted by Alienmojo
Many people view the Old Testament that way and I completely understand what you are saying and why. I however, completely disagree with it and I'll tell you why.

Remember, the Old Testament God WAS vengeful because the people of that time needed a vengeful God. After Christ came the time for a vengeful God was over with. Now God showed his Love for mankind by sending down his only begotten son. Mankind had matured to the point that they didn't need to be punished to learn. Look at it like we were children learning from our Father in the Old Testament and as children we were punished. Then as we grew more mature and older we no longer needed punishment to learn and thusly we could learn thru love.

I hope that helps a bit.

[edit on 23-12-2008 by Alienmojo]

The logical conclusion to this is, being that today we don't need Jesus - what next? God in the OT has its day, Jesus has had his - what next?

Do we already know the next part and deny it for being blasphemy, and outcast it's beliefs? Would people witnessing Jesus for the first time, endorse him? Oh wait - they killed him.

hrmmmmm....

One thing I've gleaned from the study I've done is that most religions teach that God is to be feared, that God is vengeful if one does not follow that religions teachings. Fear and vengence are human traits are they not? Why would God have those traits? Putting "Fear of God" in the minds of humans does not seem like a trait of an all loving God. Religions have been corrupted by mankind to suit its' purposes of control over the masses.

"You will burn in hell for eternity" is not something that an all loving God would do. But that is what many religions teach. God does not shun you, it is man that turns his back to God.