Behold,this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom

The verse everyone knows.

Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind:it is abomination.

The verses everyone ignores.

Leviticus 18:3

After the doings of the land of Egypt,wherein ye dwelt,shall ye not do:and after the doings of the land of Canaan,whither I bring you,shall ye not do:neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

Leviticus 18:21

And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire
to Molech,neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God:I am the LORD.

Meaning of the word Abomination.(toevah)

Modern translation:The feeling of extreme disgust and hatred.

Ancient translation:That which is ritually unclean.

If the author wanted to get across that such an act was wrong
no matter where it takes place,the word zimah would have been used.
(an example,in condemnation of temple prostitutes involving idolatry,
"toevah" is employed 1Kings 14:24,while in prohibitions of prostitution
in general the word "zimah," appears Lev 19:29)


This chapter is addressed to the Children of Israel.They are told not to act in the manner of the Egyptians and the Cannanites.They are told in verse 21 that sacred prostitution used in the worship of such gods as Molech,is a ritually unclean practise and they must not immitate it in their worship of the Lord.Leviticus 20:2 states that anyone who gives their seed to Moloch will be put to death.

(according to other chapters in Liviticus eating pork,shellfish,
lobster,eating meat 3 days old,
trimming beards,etc are all abominations too)

Chapter 1 of Romans can be linked to this.

Verses 21-27 talk of how they left God to worship another,and how they behaved when worshiping this god;sacred prostitution etc.Verses 28-32 talks of how they behaved in everyday life.This is made clear in the fact that,in the former verses mentioned,only sexual acts are mentioned.Whereas in the former verses non-sexual acts and emotions are mentioned in abundance.



The story everyone knows;Genesis 19,the destruction of Sodom.

Meaning of Sodomite/Sodomy

Modern translation:anal sex between 2 men.

Medieval translation:various forms of sexual intercourse performed by men and women,held to be unnatural or abnormal such as anal intercourse or bestiality.

Ancient translation:A person from the city of Sodom.


It is said that the sin of sodom was homosexuality.Common sense tells most people that wanting to gang rape a man does not make you a homosexual.Faith wise you have to ask why the city of Gibeah was not destroyed too.

Gibeah,you say?
Yep! In Judges chapter 19 there is an almost identical story to that found in Genesis.An unknown Levite stays in Gibeah.The men of the city wish to 'know' this man.He offers his wife/concubine to them as Lot did his daughters.The men accept this offer and she is raped to death.The city is not destroyed.Instead there is war.Not because of the rape,but because of the gross inhospitality on the part of the Tribe of Benjamin.A small remanent were allowed to survive.

Other verses ignored in connection with Sodom.

Ezekiel 16:49 (homosexuality not mentioned)

Behold,this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom,pride,fulness of bread,and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters,neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Proverbs 6:16-19 (homosexuality not mentioned)

These six things doth the Lord hate:yea,seven are an abomination unto him:A proud look,a lying tongue,and hands that shed innocent blood.An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,feet that be swift in running to mischief.A false witness that speaketh lies,and he that soweth discord among brethen.

Jeremiah 23:14

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing:they
commit adultery,and walk in lies:they strengthen also the hands of
evildoers,that none doth return from his wickedness:they are all of
them unto me as Sodom,and the inhabitants of Gomorrah

The sin of Jerusalem,homosexuality??

Good grief, man! Have you taken leave of your senses? You can't go 'round waving hard, scholarly evidence of Biblical hypocrisy and wicked intentional misinterpretation and manipulation by the Power-Mongers who live fabulously off the backs of their dumb Flocks! You'll upset the Lynch Mob if you shove their bigotry back in their faces.

Most of them still haven't fully recovered from the legalisation of inter-racial marriage, and here you go threatening to take away their last precious bastion of irrational hatred and prejudice.

Sheesh!

Star and whotnot, BTW.

I have always had an idea that sexuality had nothing to do with why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

I always that the two cities were decimated because the peoples there were too wickedly violent.

At least that is what I think, is there any scripture to back it up??

Originally posted by DantesLost

It is said that the sin of sodom was homosexuality.

Common sense tells most people that wanting to gang rape a man does not make you a homosexual.

Excuse me?

What would that act make you then?

Certainly of Homosexual leanings, though of a Violent nature.

I personally believe you are looking to much for proof in scripture especially the Old Testament.

As you state we should all have certain length beards according to some scripture, just like the current Taliban ruling....

As Jesus said about the Healing on the Sabbath etc....

However that is my personal opinion, and I respect you researching any religious texts, though I am totally baffled by your reasoning in the quoted text.

Kind Regards,

Elf

jupiter1uk

Cheers mate!



dalan.

I quoted their sins from Ezekiel 16:49.



MischeviousElf

What would that act make you then?

It would make you a rapist.
Rape is an act of power and degredation,a way of inforcing dominance over another.For centuries it was believed that woman's lives were of little value,that they were far inferior to men and should be submissive at all times.Therefore,putting yourself willingly,or forcing another,into the position of a woman,was seen as a great shame upon the man involved.Rape still has this emasculating effect on men.

I personally believe you are looking to much for proof in scripture especially the Old Testament.

As those who claim homosexuality is wrong use the Bible to back their views up,were exactly am i supposed to look?

reply to post by DantesLost


Ok, I get it now, its a dominance thing.

Kind of like US prisons....

Originally posted by DantesLost

Gibeah,you say?
Yep! In Judges chapter 19 there is an almost identical story to that found in Genesis.An unknown Levite stays in Gibeah.The men of the city wish to 'know' this man.He offers his wife/concubine to them as Lot did his daughters. The men accept this offer and she is raped to death.The city is not destroyed.Instead there is war.Not because of the rape,but because of the gross inhospitality on the part of the Tribe of Benjamin.A small remanent were allowed to survive.

So sickening...

What are you actually saying here?

I read your post twice and still not quite sure what your point is?

Are you implying because of scripture Sodom is a Sister? Was it destroyed because she or the Tribe of Benjamin were not hospitable enough? Maybe they didn't do the anal act and so were destroyed??

for farks sake, totally lost me.

I missed the "trimming of beards"
Where is this please.
Thank you

Thurisaz

What are you actually saying here?

Er,i believe what it says in Judges 19.

22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

The reason i mentioned this is because of its close comparison with the story of Sodom.One city calls down the wrath of God for its iniquities,the other doesn't.One story is used against homosexuality,and the other isn't.Even though both stories contain groups of men who wish to gang rape a visitor to the city.My belief is,that the story in Judges is not used because the men accepted the woman,unlike in Genesis.

Oh,and the title of the thread comes from a quote in the OP,Ezekiel 16:49.It means sister,as in a sister city,not a person.



dalan.

Thats it exactly!



Muundoggie

Leviticus 19:27

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads,neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

[edit on 23-12-2008 by DantesLost]

Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by DantesLost

 

Ok, I get it now, its a dominance thing.

Kind of like US prisons....

Male-on-male rape is very common, especially in warfare. Prison's got nothing on the military! Because it's so taboo it's barely ever discussed, which increases its psychologically destructive power (which is one of the reasons it's done in the first place). Usually it is completely swept under the carpet, but that doesn't stop it happening.

The male victims are badly traumatised by this violent abuse against their persons, and some of them will later commit suicide because they cannot bear the implied loss of power and their humiliation. They usually can't bring themselves to tell anyone about it. The more taboo the subject of male sex is in their societies, the deeper the shame they feel.

Male rape in the US Army has been a problem for a long time, and there's no sign that they're alone. It's been reported in the British army even recently:

www.refusingtokill.net...

As you would expect, male rape victims in the military get as good as no help whatsoever. In fact, if they dare to complain they will be punished and disbelieved. It is rife in the Russian army too, by all accounts, especially against cadets and new recruits.

It was widely reported that the Serb militias raped young males from captured towns and villages to humiliate them, especially young Moslems of fighting age. Many more women were raped too, I might add, but I'm just discussing male rape for the present.

Male rape seems to be OK if you're a very powerful, brutal Alpha-male engaged in the humiliation of subjugate males, and the rapist may often brag about his humiliation to his peers who seem to have no problem accepting this action as proof of dominance, and yet these same people will see no problem attacking or even murdering a male who is suspected of *Gasp* ENJOYING anal sex.

I'm bound to get flamed for mentioning this very inconvenient truth, and I can already hear steam coming out of ears and keyboards being bashed to smithereens by the hordes of self-righteous, but facts are facts.

Originally posted by DantesLost
Thurisaz

What are you actually saying here?

Er,i believe what it says in Judges 19.

er???? like obvious er?

what about: 'der? my point is what it says in Judges 19...'

thanks for expanding, your first post was not very clear.





[edit on 23-12-2008 by Thurisaz]

also....

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

and...

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. what do you think would be a fair price for her?

and this one...

Lev.11:6-8 touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Since when is the OT not the word of God. Either the whole KJV is the word of God and not just the New Testament or none of it is.

Or does just the OT just apply to Jew's?

reply to post by jupiter1uk


Well then!

Wish me luck, I am about to join the US Air Force....

IN THE New Testament ...MEANING OF THE WORD FORNICATION ...
In the Strongs Concordance ...
www.blueletterbible.org...
Mat 19:9
Jhn 8:41
Rom 1:29
1Cr 6:13
ETC ETC ETC >>


1) illicit sexual intercourse

a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

2) metaph. the worship of idols

a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols


So it is mentioned (Not just in Lev and Romans ) under the sins of fornicating ...

This topic comes up atleast 1-3 times every month or so on ATS here...
Use the search function OP!!! Man..
I start getting tired of runing through this whole thing over and over again.
So I won't.. I think the other members here pretty well covered this.
And have exposed the truth to the matter..

Oh Leviticus, how the ignorant dance around your holy flame!!

Leviticus also states that any man that doesnt have long hair is going to hell.
And that NO person should wear clothes woven of 2 clothes.. LOL

How silly is the cherry picking used by fundalmentalist..

Fundies you are some sick puppies.. And things are not going to change any time soon Im afraid.

you people will just nit pick at anything to find fault with God. Your motives are clear as anything.

Can't abomination have a stronger meaning in different circumstances?

some sins are bigger then others.

and also those other cities probably didn't have as much evil in them then sodom since God read hearts. he knows who's evil.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth


you people will just nit pick at anything to find fault with God. Your motives are clear as anything.

Can't abomination have a stronger meaning in different circumstances?

some sins are bigger then others.

and also those other cities probably didn't have as much evil in them then sodom since God read hearts. he knows who's evil.

No one is trying to find fault with God, isn't that an oxymoron??

Anyway, why is it that you always have to explain to the devoutly religious that we just want to understand the Bible better???? I don't see how Christians can find so much fault in people for wanting to learn and understand....

Seriously, its not nit picking.

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!


Explanation:- 1stly the OP states and I quote it directly "Chapter 1 of Romans can be linked to this.

Verses 21-27 talk of how they left God to worship another,and how they behaved when worshiping this god;sacred prostitution etc.Verses 28-32 talks of how they behaved in everyday life.This is made clear in the fact that,in the former verses mentioned,only sexual acts are mentioned.
Whereas in the former verses non-sexual acts and emotions are mentioned in abundance."

This makes no sence as there are 2 instances of the word "former" and these lead to a contradiction and do NOT make an accurate description of the scripture that the OP quotes. To fix this I suggest it be read as follows "This is made clear in the fact that,in the former verses mentioned,only sexual acts are mentioned. Whereas in the LATER* verses non-sexual acts and emotions are mentioned in abundance." NOTE: *= my FIX!

2ndly the OP states and again I quote it directly "It is said that the sin of sodom was homosexuality.Common sense tells most people that wanting to gang rape a man does not make you a homosexual."!!! PROMOTING IGNORANCE WILL GET YOU NOWHERE!!! So to DENY this I provide
the following evidence :
LINK
Evidence from LINK is as follows....
"The earliest discussions of male rape in prison are found in the correctional literature dealing with homosexuality. These works (Buffum, 1972; Clemmer, 1958; Fishman, 1951; Kirkham, 1971; Sagarin, 1976; Sykes,1958) focus on creating topologies of homosexuals. Most of this body of research, like other research on sexuality during this era, employed an essentialist theoretical approach. According to this perspective, sexual orientation is a static and permanent characteristic, and people can be categorized into two dichotomous groups—heterosexual or homosexual (see Eigenberg, 1992). This approach does not accommodate bisexuality, nor does it recognize the possibility of a changing sexual orientation. As a result, most of the early literature on prison sexuality concentrated on discriminating between “true” and “situational” homosexuals"..... Situational or not they are still HOMOSEXUAL!!!

Besides YHVH through Moses isn't ambiguous on this at all:-
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

YHVH certainly doesn't care whether its situational or not or whether anybody enjoys themselves or not or whether they consider themselves homosexual or not. He says if you do it at all ever then you are to DIE! (I have found NO caveats to this in the Old Testament as yet!).

Now I'm not dodging your question so here is my answer " Yes, if I was of the Abrahamic faiths then I would have to question the Gibeah issue and resolve it, but I'm not so I have no need to do this!"

3rdly The OP states and I quote directly "Proverbs 6:16-19 (homosexuality not mentioned)

These six things doth the Lord hate:yea,seven are an abomination unto him:A proud look,a lying tongue,and hands that shed innocent blood.An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,feet that be swift in running to mischief.A false witness that speaketh lies,and he that soweth discord among brethen". Would not a homosexual scriptually be considered to be
"An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations"(i.e. wicked imaginations =practicing homosexuality) whose "feet that be swift in running to mischief"(i.e.mischief= practicing homosexuality) and are "he that soweth discord among brethen"(i.e. by practicing homosexuality!)???

4th and finally the OP asks "The sin of Jerusalem,homosexuality??" and I reply that if you look very carefully at the scripture provided it shows its the Prophets of Jerusalem and the evil doers and not Jerusalem "Herself" that sins and yes the sins of the False prophets and the evil doers could quite concievably include homosexuality!

Personal Disclosure: I have no problems with any legally allowed sexual orientation or with the entities who have such sexual orientations. Do what thou will and HARM NO ONE!

I'll give you the same reply i did in the other thread you posted this in.

This is a lie perpetuated by some Christian groups.

The original meaning of the word (in a sexual aspect) is voluntary sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman.In the Bible that was stretched to include adultery.

It wasn't until modern times that it was stretched even further to include homosexuality etc.

People have changed the meanings of words to suit their own ignorance and bigotry.

reply to post by OmegaLogos

"An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations"(i.e. wicked imaginations =practicing homosexuality) whose "feet that be swift in running to mischief"(i.e.mischief= practicing homosexuality) and are "he that soweth discord among brethen"(i.e. by practicing homosexuality!)???

Talk about ignorance.How the hell do those phrases interpret into practicing homosexuality????

Concerning Romans 1

The verses concerning how they worship.

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

The verses concerning how they behaved in everyday life.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Oh,and i suggest you read the link you provided properly.Firstly,its only the perception of prison officers;their opinion.And secondly,it makes a clear distinction between consensual homosexual relations and rape.




[edit on 24-12-2008 by DantesLost]