Mithras, the real Jesus Christ?

Originally posted by Sapphire

Originally posted by Revebo


Hehe and you are wondering why I am not wanting to rush to Egypt right away?

Originally posted by Sapphire
Lots of Important information about our history has been ignored or covered up. Very good links you've posted btw. Here's one i have and thought i'd share it along with the other links posted here.

www.revilo-oliver.com...

by Revilo P. Oliver

Professor of the Classics, Retired; University of Illinois, Urbana

OF THE MANY PROBLEMS that confront us today, none is more vexing than that of the relation of Christianity to Western Civilization. None, certainly, causes more acrimonious controversy and internecine hostility between the members of the race which created that civilization. None more thoroughly counteracts their common interest in its preservation and renders them impotent and helpless. And that is not remarkable: what is in question is the essential nature of our civilization, and if there is no agreement about that, there can be no effective agreement on other questions.


[Edited on 9-4-2004 by Sapphire]

Egypt is the least of my worries right now

[Edited on 9-4-2004 by Sapphire]

Again, Egypt is the least of my worries right now Besides, I'd rather like the danger and suspense of a hoard of angry Maji chasing me thru the desert while on my Quest for Truth

Originally posted by Revebo

Hehe and you are wondering why I am not wanting to rush to Egypt right away?

Originally posted by Sapphire
Lots of Important information about our history has been ignored or covered up. Very good links you've posted btw. Here's one i have and thought i'd share it along with the other links posted here.

www.revilo-oliver.com...

by Revilo P. Oliver

Professor of the Classics, Retired; University of Illinois, Urbana

OF THE MANY PROBLEMS that confront us today, none is more vexing than that of the relation of Christianity to Western Civilization. None, certainly, causes more acrimonious controversy and internecine hostility between the members of the race which created that civilization. None more thoroughly counteracts their common interest in its preservation and renders them impotent and helpless. And that is not remarkable: what is in question is the essential nature of our civilization, and if there is no agreement about that, there can be no effective agreement on other questions.

Wow leveller, you know what is essential and what isn�t. where did you obtain this knowledge? Since it�s a pschyological fact that people tend to stay with what they know I guess I�ll have to see the error of my ways. I�ve always thought humans were capable of
original, unique thought?
�Its doubtful Christianity would have had a single follower...�-pure speculation. Elements that weren�t availible elsewhere? Like what, specifics please.
Generalizations and speculation do nothing to prove your point.
I guess I should have made it more clear about what I meant. It appears that people can be
vicious when dating and questioning the validity of christian artifacts (which they should be). However, these same people look at mithraism and say this is definetely of this date, this is what they believed and these were there ideas. All based on sparse artifacts and artwork. That is a double standard.
Yes the church is drenched in dogma. That doesn�t prove jesus came from mithra though. It only shows that its POSSIBLE that jesus came from somewhere else but it doesn�t show where.
No, I don�t expect the truth to fall into my lap. I�ve searched and I don�t see your �truth�. Just because I haven�t found the evidence doesn�t means it exists either (I will keep searching though). You seem rather sure of yourself. Your already convinced that the
connection is there and anybody that says different is wrong, yet you fail to prove them wrong. Since I haven�t found your �truth� I�m either not looking in the right places or I haven�t looked hard enough. That philosophy is almost as bad as the churches you despise.
Explain how christianity evolved?-This thread is about the possible connection of mithra to jesus and that�s what I will continue to discuss.

Well you still haven't answered the question that I posed to you about what you think happened.

But anyway, have you actually read the link that was placed at the top of this thread? In it, it states that there are many things that Mithras was connected with before Jesus supposedly came along. The link is a reference to the older Iranian cult.

Of course, you can always explain away the virgin birth, the shepherds, the bishops mitre, the baptisms, the rebirths and the rest by stating that all religions contain some similarities, but that really is avoiding the truth. In my opinion, the fact that Christianity contains these similarities is rather a pointing finger.

Let's look at it this way shall we? If I shouted from the rooftops 2000 years ago that I knew someone who had his head on backwards and talked through his feet and a thousand years later someone else comes up with the same claim and yet no proof, isn't it likely that he heard my earlier stories?

Like I said earlier, study history. Look at the faiths, the politics, the cultures, evolution, psychology, symbology, ritualism, nation building. If you can't see a link - that is your fault.

I suppose the complete coincidence that we celebrate Christ's birthday on the same day as Mithras will be totally explainable too? Even though Mithras was being celebrated on this day centuries before Christ was?

As for this comment - Its doubtful Christianity would have had a single follower..."-pure speculation".

Pure speculation? Are you actually aware that Christinity was so fragile that it took over 1000 years after the death of Christ to gain anything like a broad base of followers in Europe? Christianity had a massive fight against paganism as the main religion of Europe - a battle it didn't win until well into the 11th century.




[Edited on 11-4-2004 by Leveller]

Okay, I've have gotten away from my argument and shouldn't have. Leveller, we are arguing 2 diff things. I am not interested in "christianity", even though I did try to argue for it. Christianity is still evolving so I'm sure there will be even more similarities to other religions that will surface.
This thread is called "Mithra the REAL jesus christ".
It is not called Mithra the FAKE christianity. I want to know how jesus is connected to Mithra. There is a lot of evidence that the jewish christian believers did not believe in the virgin birth. They considered him a mere human who was sent by god. Its possible that this is the REAL jesus. Now suppose it is, how do you prove that this same man is connected to Mithra. He came, did some miracles, tried to show us the Way, died on a cross, when he finally did die he was "spiritually" resurrected, afterwards causing a stir. Where is mithra amongst that? That is my question, I do not care anything about the FAKE jesus created by the church; so leave him out of the discussion.
So what , his birthday is celebrated on the 25th. he wasn't born on that day. All you've shown is the figure created by the "christianity" movement has one similarity to mithra (osiris, and a whole host of others). This thread is about the REAL jesus, not the churches supped up FAKE jesus.
No, I will not explain away virgin births, shepherds, etc by saying all religions have similarities. I've already dealt with some of that; I stated that mithra wasn't born of a virgin, didn't have 12 discliples, etc, etc. Do you deny any of that and want to prove otherwise. A scholarly book or some reference to an artifact will suffice, a website with no credits won't.

Originally posted by KSoze
This thread is about the REAL jesus, not the churches supped up FAKE jesus.

Define the "real" Jesus.
If you are talking about Jesus the man, then there could be no connection with Mithras. There's not even a great deal of connection between Jesus the historical man and Jesus the Christian god figure in my opinion.
Jesus the man is not the figure whom the Chrisitians worship and therefore he isn't really relevant to this discussion.
It would be very hard to try to make suppositions about the historical Jesus as there is no solid evidence that he even existed. Jesus the Church figure is all that you've got to play with.
So what you have to do, is take Christianity, look at it's foundations, look at it's history, then throw in a whole host of politics, rituals, symbols, scriptures and other material and see what you come out with.

I came out with the liklihood that Jesus' story is based on previous beliefs in older religions. It's not a unique theory - all religions borrow and integrate from others.

Don't concentrate just on Mithras. You seem to be looking at him as the only contender for Christianity's basis in pagan belief. Read my earlier post and you will see that I named at least another dozen figures who are connected to each other and to Jesus through the similarities of their stories.

www.vetssweatshop.net...

"According to Persian traditions, the god Mithras was actually incarnated into the human form of the Saviour expected by Zarathustra. Mithras was born of Anahita, an immaculate virgin mother once worshipped as a fertility goddess before the hierarchical reformation. Anahita was said to have conceived the Saviour from the seed of Zarathustra preserved in the waters of Lake Hamun in the Persian province of Sistan."

Many over the centuries saw through the self-interest of the priest-class. But only after removing the Christian threat of torturous death for thinking freely, did some speak out against the religion. Fortunately, the US instituted such freedom from its beginning and its early leaders were outspoken in their correspondence.

Eloquently elucidated by none other than Thomas Jefferson:
"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
"Thomas Jefferson," an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and "Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim" by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

Originally posted by Leveller
Sure.

Attis, Buddha, Osiris, Dionysos, Krishna, Zoraster, Iao, Prometheus, Ixion, Alcestis, Romulus, Heracles, Orpheus...... the list goes on.

Agreed Leveller and heres a link that affirms what you have said:
Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth



seekerof

I see Jesus as the only person not to have broken the 10 commandments, especially with the twists he puts on them, hate is like murder, lust is like adultery, ect..

The church has twisted the message to make it appealing to the masses and we all can see how human misjudgement and corruption can spoil a good message.

Most make their own religion some go to church for guidance on their journey, everyone has some sort of idealology and doing whatever it takes(watch out for evil and stealing) to make money is the ones living off is just one ideal. Those living on the good book better have common sense not be out of line with their faith and reconize when they are wrong it is them or their misinformation and false ideals

All religious figures some sort of idol and so is the $$. Worship the idea of God and existance not an idol.
Respect others for what they are and pray for those in need before yourself is all one can do.

Every where there is corruption and living pure is out of the question, working for a living is a great thing. Those in poverty who have to steal to eat should get some mercy. Everyone should be responsible for themselves to make it and not rely on others for handouts, the problem with this working is too many are born into povery with no easy way out. Drugs and addiction can land a blessed person into poverty and crime.

Who was Jesus? Was he even the real deal? If he didnt die can I still meet him? Thats all I wanna know about religion.

As for evidence of his existance Ive found some info supposidly recorded by Phlegon a Roman sjy observer about the darkness that happened durrring his death. What gets me is Passover happens around a full moon and it is written that he was killled durring Passover. The darkness that was recorded could not have been a solar ecliplse by the moon because the full moon is out at night.

Links

Phlegon
The Crucifixion Darkness

Who was Jesus? Was he even the real deal?

A number of writers and historians, etc. have recorded the person of Jesus....Josephus, etc.
The Historical Evidence for Jesus Christ?
Testimonium Flavianum
Historical Study of Jesus of Nazareth - An Introduction

Maybe that might help?
If not, I can provide some further thoelogical/historical source books from the campus library, if so required.



seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof

A number of writers and historians, etc. have recorded the person of Jesus....Josephus, etc.

I used to believe that Josephus was the proof that Jesus existed. But in my research I've come to believe that his comments on Christ are actually fraudulent and were added to his works later.
It's entirely possible that the early Church doctored his works and we know that Paul's pastoral letters also come from dubious sources so there is a track record of tampering with writings.

www.users.zetnet.co.uk...

The main cruncher for me is that there is no evidence of Christ in mainstream Roman, Greek or Egyptian literature. These civilisations were meticulous documentators and it's pretty unthinkable that the Son of God would go unmentioned in any of their historical work.
From what I can find, all of the evidence of Jesus' existence is open to question.

Suprisingly, I do believe that he existed. But probably in a way that was totally unrecognisable to the figure that we have in the Bible.

Does anyone know anything about Josephus being of the Piso family?

I'll try to dig up some links if I can.




1

www.comereason.org...
www.comereason.org...

Christianity did not borrow/steal any idea or concept from any religion, but as some people did not like Christianity (some of its followers) for whatever reason, all kinds of theories were made to question the truth of Christianity, and question Christians in their faith.
This is not the first "christianity is untrue" theorie and it will not be the last either. The time spend investigating evidence to dismiss these theories could be used for better things, but as these theories tend to give a lot of insecure Christians quite a kick in their faith, it's usefull to gather facts and find out why these theories are simply based on lies and false assumptions.

And no, I'm not "blinded by the bible" as some atheist like to yell whenever a Christian has a good point.

I have found a happy home on above top secret!

May you become wiser than me immediately! May you become fairer in form, healthier, more beautiful, and more gracefully attended by boys younger and more fair than my own!

Here's a link to Morals and Dogma, which will give you a great education in a very short time. It was the standard textbook of Freemasons for 100 years, written by the Grandmaster Albert Pike, who reformed American Freemasonry back in the mid 1800's.

Morals and Dogma

Oh yea, it talks about Mithras in there too, He was a sun deity, kinda like Apollo. Lotsa good mysteries in that book. Blows away a lot of myths about freemasonry.

Arkaleus

Originally posted by iceofspades
I've studied this a bit and even presented a report of the fact that Christianity is simply a duplicate of this Mithras cult. Get this, it was at a Catholic school. Ha they ate my words and were speechless...

The Mithras cult were the inventors of the "blood and body" idea, as well as the savior idea. Christianity is nothing more than an elaborate, and rather successful hoax that brainwashed and destroys proper advancement of society.

Read my siggy

I wish I could have been there for your report. When I was in Catholic school I was slapped out of my desk and had it overturned and emptied on top of me by a hysterical shreiking nun because my desk was untidy. The nuns at my school would have dismembered you with their rosaries, then eaten your body parts.

Originally posted by jrod
The darkness that was recorded could not have been a solar ecliplse by the moon because the full moon is out at night.

Links

Phlegon
The Crucifixion Darkness

Actually the full moon can be out at anytime day or night. Research your astronomy, or bother to look up in the sky sometime. I have seen many daytime full moons. Crescent moons do not mean part of the moon is missing, it only means that we cannot see part of it.

[Edited on 5-26-2004 by groingrinder]