California Check Points with Military Happening

Oops, sorry....pteridine I thought you were pd417, who earlier said they worked for a large law enforcement agency. Because both your screen names started with "p", I got confused. My apologies. I think I have been debating with 2 people, thinking you were the same person/law enforcement person.

He/she was the one who said it was completely usual for joint training to take place between the military and the police, not you.

My mistake, and I completely and totally apologize for directing the rant about the police towards you. (Unless you actually ARE a police officer or associated with law enforcement in any way...LOL!)

However, thank you for coming up with that source, as asked. I don't believe a word they (the military) say about them being there for only observation, but I appreciate you coming up with a source.

But, about your other argument. Earlier, you said if the Marines were there to arrest only Marines, and not regular citizens, it would be ok and completely legal. I still disagree with you on that one.


[edit on 21-12-2008 by nikiano]

[edit on 21-12-2008 by nikiano]

reply to post by nikiano


No apology needed. With all the posts, it is easy to confuse content.

As to Marines arresting Marines, that is legal, as far as I know. Maybe a law enforcement or JAG officer will comment.

www.thirdreich.net...

“You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to “go out of your way to make trouble.” Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

“Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, “everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, “It's not so bad” or “You're seeing things” or “You're an alarmist.”

“And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

“But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.


“But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes.

I think people are just going to keep having these discussions. Then it will be but the military are arresting people, oh but only the guilty, it's not so bad, you are over reacting, go back to sleep, nothing to see here.

Till one incident sets off martial law, and they will already be in place. There are many of us in this society that have been trying to tell you for years about the horrors that people in your very own country are going through, and what your country is capable of, but you will not listen, and so you will repeate history and you will learn.

www.smh.com.au.../articles/2008/11/26/1227491580370.html

A Melbourne private intelligence firm specialising in “open-source intelligence” has been engaged by Victoria Police, the Australian Federal Police and the federal Attorney-General's Department to monitor and report on the protest movements' use of the internet.

The monitoring, which has been secretly conducted for at least five years, includes exploring websites, online chat rooms, social networking sites, email lists and bulletin boards to gather information on planned demonstrations and other activities. Many of those monitored have not broken any laws, but it is believed information about their participation in online activities is conveyed to government agencies that also deal with terrorism.

Also when you get into arguments with some people please keep in mind that many of these forums have been infiltrated with people that have agendas, so when they sprout off if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about or some other variation, or tell you how comfortable they are giving up their rights, or tell you to relax you are overreacting, ask yourself if you are dealing with a regualar citizens, or someone who's job it is to say such and get you to think that way.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by Harassment101]

reply to post by Harassment101

This is all true, of course, and has been repeated in one form or another on many boards. Hitler's rise to power and bather-bathwater are common themes.
The discussion here centered around the Posse Comitatus Law of 1878 and what it meant. Some were equating it with the separation of church and state and thought that it was a constitutional issue. Some thought that rights were being violated but it is not a principle called out in the Bill of Rights. In fact, it is a practical matter and was not meant to limit the power of the military over civilians but rather to limit the power of civilians over the military. Now that we understand its purpose and limitations, all can be more aware of what might be a violation of the law. Violation is not, as some would think, a capital crime. Our ATS members are vigilant and will warn us should the military overstep their bounds.

reply to post by pteridine

I think the problem is that bounds are already being overstepped. I think it's happening so gradually that people don't see it. I think people are waiting for someone else to tell them when things have gotten too bad, and as pointed out, this does not happen. It all comes gradually. The military should be a sign, but it's not.

See 4 years ago for some people this would have been the sign they were waiting for, but their standards have changed and so now they are waiting for people to start getting arrested and that's when they will sound the alarm, and then it's too late.

I think each person has to come to a consensis on their own as to when the country has gone too far, for some this action will be their wake up call, for others nothing will wake them up. It's why some people left Germany in the early stages and others waited, because they just didn't believe and took the word of others, instead of trusting their instinct, or truly looking around at the sign of the times which were there.


[edit on 22-12-2008 by Harassment101]

reply to post by unruly1


It's no different than a military person going U.A. or AWOL (unauthorized absence, or absent without leave), and the MP's coming to arrest them. Here's what people don't understand....

When a person joins the military, they sign a contract....they are now GOVERNMENT PROPERTY! It states so in the contract!! (I have issues with this myself, but that's for another conspiracy thread.)

So, when a piece of "government property" is on civilian soil, you bet your bottom they have every right to come and "claim it", police it, arrest it, or do whatever they want with it. So if a military person is driving drunk, potentially making for bad public relations, then yes, they will come out and do check points with local police on the the road in which they travel coming from all the bars and clubs in Palm Springs. It's a very logical and reasonable step to fix an ongoing problem.

I'll say again....unless they are interactive with civilians in doing the actual tests or arresting civilians, there is nothing to worry about.

Originally posted by Harassment101
reply to post by pteridine

 

I think the problem is that bounds are already being overstepped. I think it's happening so gradually that people don't see it. I think people are waiting for someone else to tell them when things have gotten too bad, and as pointed out, this does not happen. It all comes gradually.

This is so true.

[edit on 22-12-2008 by nikiano]

Those people or governments who want to control others always start out with something small....something very small..... to test our boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

I read a great book about it years ago, called "Controlling People" by Patricia Evans. I originally picked up the book because of a person in my life who was trying to control me, but the last chapter also clearly spells out how governments use tricks to easily control people, too. It's a great book, and I recommend it to anyone who is interested in learning how controlling people and governments work and think.

This is basically how they work: When these people first appear in our lives, whether they are romantic interests or corrupt government leaders, they want to see if we're the kind of person who says "Stop right now!" or if we're the kind of person who lets them continue on. So, they'll test our boundaries with something very small (like Marines at DUI checkpoints), but still, it's something that violates the law, or it violates a person's ethical boundaries.

If you say or do nothing when they do this....this gives them permission to keep violating the law/your boundaries.

If your instincts tell you something is wrong, but you say nothing.....waiting instead for someone else to say something first.....this gives them permission to keep doing it.

If you finally say something, but are easily swayed by their arguments that "it's nothing...you're making a mountain out of a molehill"....and then back down due to intimidation.....this gives them permission to keep doing it.

If you finally stand firm and fight and say "No! This is unacceptable. You cannot do this to me/us/our country/the world anymore!" they'll tell you what a terrible person you've become and then go find someone else (another victim or group of victims) and start violating THEIR boundaries.

They generally keep doing this until they get caught, get beat up, get put in jail, or get over-thrown. These are the kinds of people who become dictators of relationships, dictators of groups, corrupt politicians, and dictators of countries.

If the whole world finally stands firm and says "No more!" then we can finally put them where they belong.....in jail....behind bars.

Because these are the kinds of people who do NOT understand that laws and boundaries are for EVERYONE. They believe they are above the law. They steal, rape, murder, plot, extort, bribe, blackmail, scheme, and defraud people....yet always seem to keep rising to the top. They crave power and control. The jails and prisons are full of them.

Those corrupt politicians in positions of power who also want to control us should also be behind bars, because they also have criminal minds. Because they do not understand boundaries. They do not understand that they are not above the Constitution, and the Constitution was put there in order to prevent any person or group in power from becoming too powerful.

If you think about it, a country that is run by corrupt politicians is kind of like a woman in the middle of an abusive relationship: When she first meets her husband, he is as charming as charming can be, and promises her the world. Although the relationship starts out beautiful, it deteriorates so bad until one day, she finds she has no control over her daily life and she is being beaten by the husband who supposedly loves her. That woman can either stay and be killed....or she can decide that she's had enough....and walk away from the abusive relationship.

Now, imagine a country full of (mostly) law-abiding citizens. One day, a group of politicians comes into their lives promising them a better world, and because it sounds wonderful, they follow this person or group. However, after decades of promises, they are worse off than they were before. But just like abusive husbands who always say say "I'm sorry, I'll change!" over and over, they also say "Trust us, we'll change!" over and over.

They promise better education, but the schools are failing. They promise social welfare reform, but we now have millions of illegals on welfare. They promise better regulation, but the the very agencies that were set up to protect us (i.e. the SEC and the FDA) are just as corrupt.

They ask us to trust them with our money, but then they give away trillions of our tax-money to corrupt bankers who defrauded the country, and don't even tell us where it was spent. They ask us to trust us to protect us from "the terrorists who want to harm you", and then set up the Patriot Act that take away OUR freedoms.

Oh, yes....they changed. For the worse. Because they never wanted to be good leaders. They wanted to be in control. And they know that the easiest way to gain control is by permission.

Our government has a major ethical problem, and we are like the co-dependent spouse in an abusive relationship. They have been promising us the world for decades...but all we've gotten in return for trusting them is abuse. And like idiots, we believe them when they say they're going to change, over and over again. And on top of it, we stand by and watch them start wars with other countries with OUR military.

We have a choice, just like the abused woman had a choice. We can decide we deserve better and walk away from our abusive and corrupt government, or we can stay and watch it get worse and worse. We can either stand up now, and say "enough!" or we can wait til we're really beaten down, and we have little strength left. Or we can wait until its too late, and not do anything, while our rights are slowly taken away until we have no control in our own lives.

One day, we could have so little power left that our own "beloved leaders" could kill us. We could be killed by the thousands (like in Iraq under Saddam Hussein), or we could be killed by the millions, like under Hitler and Stalin and the "beloved leader" of North Korea.

How do we say "enough?"

At the very least, we need to start being more vocal. In the past, we could count on the press to be our vocal cords. But the vocal cords of the press have been cut by corporate newspapers and news channels. We have no press left to stand up for us, because they are now part of the problem. It's up to the ordinary citizens to start making waves.....and start being more vocal, and start saying "Stop. That's wrong. You cannot do that, and we're not gonna take it anymore!"

Until it's too late.


[edit on 22-12-2008 by nikiano]

You guys do realize that this type of thing happens all the time right? MP's will train with a civilian police department and learn new things from them and in turn the civilian police department goes to a military base and learn new techniques from the MPs'. Happens all the time.

Let me ask a question to all that oppose the training.

Would you be against military fire fighters training with civilian fire fighters?

Would you be against military fire fighters helping civilian fire fighters to put out a burning building?

Originally posted by antar

Originally posted by emeraldzeus
reply to post by antar

 

That's my point, your 'involved'. In other words you put your own spin on this because you fear for personal retaliation if you dont go along with the injustice this stands for. You have no clue what this is all about, you are not 'in' the military.

Sorry, but you are wrong. I will not disclose any further private information on myself, my involvement, my identity, my age, my whatever. I am very much "in" the military, and so yes, I do know what this is about. I am not protecting anyone, nor am I debunking. I am merely disgusted at the sheer lack of thoughtful insight here.

That's rich Grandpa, I mean bars, clubs, dance halls, not iron bars.

Thank you, but I'm the one laughing! And if you wanted a different interpretation of your use of "bars", you should have cleared it up yourself, but my interpretation matched your ignorance. And since you don't live here, (I do), I can tell you that most Marines drive "down the hill" to Palm Springs, and come back drunk on the very road where the check points are being conducted.

I sleep very well thank you very much. Yet I sleep with a clear conscience. I do not claim to be in the know and that helps tremendously, you should try it.

I'm the one who lives here. And yes, in this case, I AM in the know. You are not. The sheer ignorance and paranoia on this thread is really alarming.

There you go again, creating those little subtle barriers between you and me, why would you say 'us' coming into 'your' home? I doubt you'll be called up on this one, not the future which this action could be heading 'us' towards. No amount of past service will help, this is an all new playing field.

You assume way too much! There are no barriers at all, except knuckleheads like you who think the military are out to get them. "I" didn't create the "you against us", this thread did! I seem to be one of the few sane folks here who are trying to fizzle out the insanity here.

So you are saying that they are not only learning from the CHP how to identify a Military drunk on public roads verses the regular folk, but that this is a special bonding for the Military and CHPS?

Read the article, Einstein. You obviously haven't done that yet.

OK so how many brain damaged, limbless, homeless and down and out Marines have you taken in lately?

How many times have you seen the MP's hanging out in towns on a Friday night during the Holidays watching for their own? Oh other than that one episode of Andy Griffith when Gomer Pile goes into town on a date and gets in trouble? (That was a good one)

Again, you assume far too much. We, "I", look out for and take care of our own in far more ways than you just listed, and many of my dear friends and relatives are those that you very disrespectfully described as being brain damaged, limbless, etc. And as far as I know, Gomer Pile, USMC, isn't in the reruns, but it seems you watched it more than I did. While you were watching a comedy on TV about the military, I was living it.

EXCUSE ME??? You stand corrected. You Sir are the only one claiming to loath here.

I loath no one, but I do loath ignorance.

When that day comes I have plenty of brothers, sons and nephews that will be fighting right along side them. AND FYI, I would have their back in a heartbeat. I have a hell of a lot of love for my country and that is genetic and part and parcel for my heritage in this Country.

Well, if the military is out infringing on everyone's rights, why would you be serving along side them?? Do you see the irrationality of your post now? We both love our country.

Originally posted by emeraldzeus
reply to post by questioningall

 

It never ceases to amaze me that folks that don't even LIVE here are spinning this out of control. There is another thread about this whole issue in which I cleared this up already.

First of all, there are a LOT of liberals in these parts....no matter what "we" do, they will find fault, period....good, bad, or indifferent, makes no difference. This is one of those instances, and the fact that there was a report about it in the media, shows me just how little folks respect the very people who bring business to their cities. So let me clear it up AGAIN....

A new General came aboard not too long ago. In the change-over, he was angered by how many deaths occur on Highway 62, which is the VERY long, straight, stretch of road that goes through several cities down to Palm Springs. Marines are constantly driving this road. It is a VERY DEADLY ROAD!!! I personally have witnessed several fatalities since living here, and have even lost a friend on this road. The numbers are staggering. So, the General and base officials have been meeting with city officials of Yucca Valley, to team up with a plan to crack down on drunk and reckless driving. I cannot find an MP3 clip of what I heard just last week, but in the words of the General to the city council:

"You police your dummies, and I'll take care of mine."

Very simply put, the General is being a darn good "father" to a bunch of irresponsible military personnel, in order to save their lives and the lives of others. HOWEVER, innocent military personnel are also losing their lives because of reckless civilians. This is a joint effort to pump up awareness on a road which these cities have pretty much let go to hell. I for one, am GLAD to see this!!! THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY HERE!!

I have never seen a more whiny, lazy, uninformed group of individuals as I have seen living here. I am disgusted over the local radio stations spinning this and everything else out of proportion, without ever bothering to get the facts....isn't it just like the media to do so? Z-107.7 is known for this, and most military members have their own nick-name for a certain DJ there who ALSO sits on the 29 Palms city council...a little bit of a conflict of interest, wouldn't you say? He's nothing short of an ignorant jack-*ss who creates discord every chance he gets, and If I were a betting person, I'd say this bit of info most likely came directly from him.

When the military arrests a civilian and hauls them off, THEN we'll have problems!!! But let's not forget that our men and women also know the law, and I would bet that NONE of them would go against it to accomplish what's being implied here. All of you who sit comfortably at your computers, without the faintest idea of what is going on less than a mile away from my home, are enjoying the right to join the ranks of complete idiots who do nothing but complain and make trouble every time they turn around. It's a free country, do as you will....but at least use common sense and get your facts first. Try looking up how many deaths have occurred on this road over the years. I might actually start to make sense.

I'm part of the military family, and I'm HERE...what does that tell you? We're not stupid, and we're not the enemy....please keep that in mind! It's so easy to stereotype people you don't know as being the "big, bad, enemy" out to take your rights away from you....they are OUR rights as well. We protect them, remember?? Not everything is bad, but if you choose to find bad in everything, then you probably will, and there will be enough fools around to join you.

sorry, I was just surprised this thread was still going on after I read this.

seriously, how fear generates conspiracies is practically fascinating to me.

I will not down-play some of the opinions on this thread, but the whole fear of the military oppression theme is laughable. why is that over 95% of threads and topics like this come from people who have no military experience, or even relative understanding of how it operates?

no problem with being paranoid, and having a concern, but ask questions and search for answers, all this jumping to conclusions is doing is spreading some unneeded fear.

seriously.... The MP's are trying to fix a problem by learning from local law enforcement, and somehow...somehow..this is epic news, that the MSM isn't covering because there is this elaborate plan behind it and increased military presences etc etc....

Originally posted by jd140

Let me ask a question to all that oppose the training.

Would you be against military fire fighters training with civilian fire fighters?

Regular firemen train on simulations. I know this, because I have a friend who is a firefighter. As long as the joint military training was done on a simulation, on a federal military base, the way regular firemen train, I would not have a problem with this.

I do not have a problem with MP's training with CHP on federal bases, either.

Would you be against military fire fighters helping civilian fire fighters to put out a burning building?

Yes. Unless it was part of an entire city burning in a national emergency, or if it was during a war. That's what the National Guard is there for, in case things get out of hand in an national emergency.

When 9/11 happened, all of the NYC firemen handled the disaster without the National Guard or the Army being called in.

Oh, wait....I forgot. "Someone" in the federal government WAS called in in 9/11 to help with the "cleanup". And both high rises imploded and killed thousands of people, including the firemen on the street below. They also "pulled" (destroyed) building 7, which housed many federal intelligence offices, thus destroying all the evidence of what really happened on 9/11.

So yes, after 9/11, I would say AM STRONGLY opposed to any federal personnel coming into "help" if a building is on fire.


[edit on 23-12-2008 by nikiano]

reply to post by juveous


What you were surprised that people decided not to be docile sheep and kept speaking out and decided to not take the word of a third party person that they don't know from Adam. Was that what surprised you?

People when it concerns their well being, those of their family, or society, need to keep asking questions. Nothing that I have seen here, fully explains why the military is on U.S. soil. In fact all the other things that I have read suggest increasingly that there is reason to be concerned. So you will excuse those people that have legit question and concerns and give them leave to voice those concerns. Silence is complacency.

reply to post by Harassment101


You said: "Nothing that I have seen here, fully explains why the military is on U.S. soil."

They are on our soil because they are our military. What you should worry about is someone else's military being on our soil.

reply to post by pteridine


See I am ok with worrying, worrying keeps you alert on your toes. Sitting back and being a sheep and taking someone else's word that everything is ok, nothing to see here, is not my way of doing things.

See if I worry or pay closer attention or become more vigilant and nothing happens, then no worries. If I stop worrying, and sit back like a sheep, then I will feel like the government during 9/11. Cause they were warned, they didn't worry, or just didn't do anything right?

Also the price of eternal freedom is eternal vigilance, If I remember correctly.

www.toxicjunction.com...

Have any of you really read and fully understood what our constitution states?

There are a lot of loop holes in both the constitution and our bill of rights. I would suggest you re-read them all and look up the definitions for all the words that are used and don't for get to include all the amendments.

Our constitution gives our military the authority to do this and much more.

Originally posted by nikiano

Originally posted by jd140

Let me ask a question to all that oppose the training.

Would you be against military fire fighters training with civilian fire fighters?

Regular firemen train on simulations. I know this, because I have a friend who is a firefighter. As long as the joint military training was done on a simulation, on a federal military base, the way regular firemen train, I would not have a problem with this.

I do not have a problem with MP's training with CHP on federal bases, either.

Would you be against military fire fighters helping civilian fire fighters to put out a burning building?

Yes. Unless it was part of an entire city burning in a national emergency, or if it was during a war. That's what the National Guard is there for, in case things get out of hand in an national emergency.

When 9/11 happened, all of the NYC firemen handled the disaster without the National Guard or the Army being called in.

Oh, wait....I forgot. "Someone" in the federal government WAS called in in 9/11 to help with the "cleanup". And both high rises imploded and killed thousands of people, including the firemen on the street below. They also "pulled" (destroyed) building 7, which housed many federal intelligence offices, thus destroying all the evidence of what really happened on 9/11.

So yes, after 9/11, I would say AM STRONGLY opposed to any federal personnel coming into "help" if a building is on fire.


[edit on 23-12-2008 by nikiano]

Sorry to tell you, but military firefighters go to civilian fire houses to train all the time and civilian fire fighters go to military fire houses and train there also. Must be a conspiracy in that too huh?

I'm sure if your house/apartment was on fire you wouldn't mind if the firefighters putting out that fire was military.

Just like you wouldn't mind if you was being held at gun point and the cop who helps you turned out to be an MP.

It is training folks, nothing more.

reply to post by jd140


Firefighters generally won't be arresting you.

Policing the populace is generally a touchy subject these days anyhow.

Every cop is seen as someone who is waiting for an excuse to taser you till your body hair fries and you are sterile and or dead.

This is the perception many people have, that of fear of their public servants.

MP's are that much more intimidating, the guys I have dealt with are usually sharp, well built, and "fit the profile" (power tripping, egotistical).

Notice I am quoting my experience, before I get flamed by the puny, submissive, sloppy MP who may be offended by my stereotype.

With the way he government has been openly defying the public it supposedly serves, I believe we have every right to worry when military personnel operate "off the reservation".

If they can't figure out how to profile/handle a DUI stop without watching a civ cop with 10 % of their funding, maybe we all need to get on a bus and go audit what the hell they are learning at AIT.

And as far as the General "policing his own", If his marines are off the res and DUI, then they are subject to civilian law and he can have them back when we are done with them.




[edit on 24-12-2008 by hotrodturbo7]

Originally posted by hotrodturbo7
reply to post by jd140

 

Firefighters generally won't be arresting you.

Policing the populace is generally a touchy subject these days anyhow.

Every cop is seen as someone who is waiting for an excuse to taser you till your body hair fries and you are sterile and or dead.

This is the perception many people have, that of fear of their public servants.

MP's are that much more intimidating, the guys I have dealt with are usually sharp, well built, and "fit the profile" (power tripping, egotistical).

Notice I am quoting my experience, before I get flamed by the puny, submissive, sloppy MP who may be offended by my stereotype.

With the way he government has been openly defying the public it supposedly serves, I believe we have every right to worry when military personnel operate "off the reservation".

If they can't figure out how to profile/handle a DUI stop without watching a civ cop with 10 % of their funding, maybe we all need to get on a bus and go audit what the hell they are learning at AIT.

And as far as the General "policing his own", If his marines are off the res and DUI, then they are subject to civilian law and he can have them back when we are done with them.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by hotrodturbo7]

Every year there is required training. It is the same training every single year. I am not an MP but I imagine that they have to go through yearly MOS training just like I do. This time it just so happens that they are working with the local PD to train up on road blocks.

As far as the Fire fighter comment, I was replying to what the poster I was quoting said about military fire fighter training.

Also, did any MP make an arrest that day? If so that would be the first I have heard about it.

Training folks, nothing more.