NIST Investigation Violated National Fire Code

reply to post by CameronFox

My sources are listed in my previous post. I will not be baited into another "list your sources" battle. You always get sources from us and you NEVER i repeat NEVER read them or you just can't comprehend them. Either way, you are shown on a daily basis, answers to almost all of the questions you have raised here at ATS.

This is what “you” have been doing ever sent you have step foot in these 911 threads thank you!

reply to post by CameronFox

WHAT?????

The thread Title is what Cash?

Crime scenes that involve fire need to be investigated. IT was OBVIOUS what caused the fires.

What question do you want answered.

You are evading the issues with your own form of nonsense while others, perhaps more intelligent than you pretend to be, have no trouble with the material.

Originally posted by SPreston

posted by jthomas
Obviously, you never bothered to research all of the independent studies done on the dust right after 9/11 to determine the dust's exact physical and chemical composition so as to evaluate the potential harmful effects to first responders and cleanup crews.

Oh really jthomas?

Yes, really, absolutely.

Do you have a clue?

I have a very BIG clue.

Why did they lie to New Yorkers and tell them the dust was safe immediately after 9-11?

And just where do you think the data came from that showed the dust was unsafe for everyone????

Get a clue and do your research on those independent dust studies, Mr. Preston.

posted by SPreston
Why did they lie to New Yorkers and tell them the dust was safe immediately after 9-11?

posted by jthomas
And just where do you think the data came from that showed the dust was unsafe for everyone????

Get a clue and do your research on those independent dust studies, Mr. Preston.

Can't you read jthomas? New York officially linked a death to the 9-11 toxic dust in 2007. The lying criminal Bush Regime and that scumbag Christine Todd Whitman told them it was safe to go back in 2001 and 2002.

NYC links first death to 9/11 toxic dust
May. 24, 2007
NEW YORK - A woman who died of lung disease five months after Sept. 11 was added Wednesday to the medical examiner's list of attack victims, marking the first time the city has officially linked a death to the toxic dust caused by the World Trade Center's collapse.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

World Trade Center Workers Fight Illness from Toxic Dust
Updated June 2007- Thousands of rescue workers that responded to the World Trade Center disaster are now struggling with serious respiratory and gastrointestinal problems, rare cancers, and emotional issues such as anxiety and depression. A number of others have died from serious health complications.

Over 5,000 active and retired FDNY firefighters are receiving medical treatment from illnesses connected with the World Trade Center disaster. The FDNY had around 11,000 members on duty on September 11, 2001; the number of workers that need medical assistance is becoming very large.

The deaths of three New York detectives have been linked by families and some doctors to the toxic dust at ground zero. Doctors are concerned that the numbers of cases like these will continue to grow. But experts say that these illnesses and deaths have not been conclusively linked to the contaminated dust.

The dust at ground zero contained asbestos, dioxin, benzene, and numerous other noxious pollutants. This dust rose up and covered everything for blocks after the collapse. The rescue workers in New York were not required to use respirators. Many of them only had paper masks protecting their faces.

Over 8,000 people are suing the New York City for negligence. In this case medical examiners will be attempting to prove that the dust from the trade center caused life-threatening diseases.

www.injuryboard.com...

Doctor warns of new wave of World Trade Center illness
June 1, 2007
The head of the largest program tracking the health of World Trade Center site workers said several have developed rare blood cell cancers, raising fears that cancer will become a "third wave" of illnesses among those exposed to toxic dust after Sept. 11, 2001.

Dr. Robin Herbert, co-director of the World Trade Center Medical Monitoring Program at Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York, said researchers who have screened 20,000 of the estimated 40,000 Ground Zero workers are "most concerned" about lymphatic and blood cancer cases.

"We're worried about a third wave, which is the possibility of cancer down the road," Herbert said in an audiotaped interview posted on the New England Journal of Medicine's website.

"The kind of thing that worries us is that we know we have a handful of cases of multiple myeloma in very young individuals, and multiple myeloma is a condition that … almost always presents later in life," she added. "That's the kind of odd, unusual and troubling finding that we're seeing already."

The city's health commissioner said Thursday there was no evidence of a link to cancers and trade centre dust exposure.

"While we are concerned about the possibility" of cancer cases in people exposed to trade centre dust, cancer cases haven't increased, commissioner Thomas Frieden said. State data show no changes in leukemia and myeloma cases in New York City as of 2004, the latest data available, he said.

Mount Sinai published research last year that said about 70 per cent of the workers they screened had developed various respiratory illnesses.

Long-term monitoring
An article published Thursday with Herbert's interview in the New England Journal of Medicine said that while workers did inhale cancer-causing chemicals, "an associated increased risk for respiratory tract cancer and most other types of cancer will not be apparent for decades."

The researchers from Johns Hopkins University and the University of Rochester suggested tracking diseases for at least two decades through a New York City-based health registry that plans to monitor residents' and workers' health for 20 years.

Herbert, who was not available for further comment Thursday, didn't say in her audiotaped interview how many blood cell cancer cases the Mount Sinai program was tracking. She said researchers are verifying all the cases that have been reported by members of the monitoring program.

An attorney representing thousands of workers and residents said that more than 100 of his clients have blood cell cancers. About eight have multiple myeloma, David Worby said. Most of his clients are in their 30s or 40s, and the youngest is 29, he said.

More than half of all cases of multiple myeloma, a plasma cell cancer that spreads throughout bone marrow, occur in people over 70, and about one per cent of cases occur in people under 40, according to the Multiple Myeloma Research Foundation in Norwalk, Conn.

Herbert, referring to cancer as a possible third wave of disease, said the first was the chronic coughing and acute respiratory problems that workers got right after their post-Sept. 11 work.

Second, she said, are more serious chronic lung diseases such as sarcoidosis, which killed a New York woman who inhaled dust from the collapsing twin towers on Sept. 11, 2001.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg said of Herbert's remarks on blood cell cancers: "The city's own doctors don't — they will not say there's no possibility — but they don't at the moment see this as the great threat."

Said Worby: "It's not a great threat to the general public, but to people who are already sick and have these blood cell cancers and who gave up their lives … it's a great threat to them because a lot of them are going to die."

www.cbc.ca...

Originally posted by jthomas
Obviously, you never bothered to research all of the independent studies done on the dust right after 9/11 to determine the dust's exact physical and chemical composition so as to evaluate the potential harmful effects to first responders and cleanup crews.

Obviously, you never bothered to research the difference between a chemical (compound) and an element. If you had, you'd know the difference.

Do you know how to use Google Scholar search?

Do you? Do you know the difference between a chemical and an element?

If so, go and do your own research of those papers and report back with your findings.

Since we've been waiting for over a year now for your research and findings jthomas, I doubt you have any room to talk.

Originally posted by CameronFox
What was proven ...exactly?

2.25 seconds of freefall is a huge thing. Whether you guys want to acknowledge it or not.

[edit on 12/16/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by CameronFox
Really? No investigators? I suggest you read my above post.

Mess cleaned up quickly? Hmmm... last piece of steel was Column No. 1,001 B of 2 World Trade Center it was removed in May of 2002. Roughly 8 months seem quick to you?

Again Cameron:

reply to post by CameronFox

 

I guess you have forgotten this thread Cameron?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Thousands of tons of steel were carted away from ground zero and recycled before any expert could examine what could have been tell-tale clues. Support trusses, fireproofing fragments and even burnt out electrical switches that might have given scientists and engineers insight were lost forever - even before an investigation was underway.

www.house.gov...

Notice that quote is NOT from a CT site, but written by and for the government.

Now, if they did such a great job at fresh kills, why would the government admit that it botched the investigation? Why would new laws have to be written to ensure they don't botch another investigation?



[edit on 12/16/2008 by Griff]

[edit on 12/16/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by CameronFox
The 911 Commision did not hire NIST. Congress passed the National Construction Safety Team bill in October 2002, giving NIST the authority to conduct an investigation of the World Trade Center collapses.

Yes, a whole 13 months later, they decided to "investigate". Once all the steel was gone. Good job there.

Or do I have to remind you of this?

Mess cleaned up quickly? Hmmm... last piece of steel was Column No. 1,001 B of 2 World Trade Center it was removed in May of 2002. Roughly 8 months seem quick to you?

[edit on 12/16/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by CameronFox
Sir, I simply stated that NIST was aware of what started the fire. Remember the two planes that hit the towers? Then they exploded? Yeah, and then jet fuel was dispursed in several areas? Yeah, that's what started the fires. No need to look any further to appease the paranoid minds of a few. It was 100% CLEAR what started the fires.

So, in your mind, there was no reason to investigate OJ's involvement into Nicole's murder because "we all knew who did it."? Then why did the man walk free for 14 years?

My sources are listed in my previous post. I will not be baited into another "list your sources" battle. You always get sources from us and you NEVER i repeat NEVER read them or you just can't comprehend them. Either way, you are shown on a daily basis, answers to almost all of the questions you have raised here at ATS.

Now, I consider you my friend, but, are you reverting back to the "jthomas" syndrome?

Originally posted by CameronFox
Preston....

That poor woman was trapped during the collapse. This was not caused by her prematurely returning to her home.

Please list one death that has been determined to be caused by people returning to their homes too early.

WHAT THE?

"Please list one death that has been determined to be caused by people returning to their homes too early?"

AGAIN. WHAT THE?

So, because people actually didn't run away and tried to help others, they are now considered to be "not prematurely returning to her home". And are worthy of death?

Again Cameron, you're starting to make me sick to my stomach that I have considered you a friend. No offense of course, but this is low.

Originally posted by CameronFox
Crime scenes that involve fire need to be investigated. IT was OBVIOUS what caused the fires.

Was it?

What question do you want answered.

There's more than just one

Originally posted by jthomas
And just where do you think the data came from that showed the dust was unsafe for everyone????

Just because the EPA finally had to come clean (no pun intended) doesn't negate the fact that they covered it up in the beginning. Trying to re-write history again?

Get a clue and do your research on those independent dust studies, Mr. Preston.

Maybe you should take your own advice and realize what exactly these "studies" are telling us. Or more correctly, what they are NOT telling us.

reply to post by CameronFox

Sir, I simply stated that NIST was aware of what started the fire. Remember the two planes that hit the towers? Then they exploded? Yeah, and then jet fuel was dispursed in several areas? Yeah, that's what started the fires. No need to look any further to appease the paranoid minds of a few. It was 100% CLEAR what started the fires.

Again, what dose this have to do with ( NIST Investigation Violated National Fire Code?)

No need to look any further to appease the paranoid minds of a few. It was 100% CLEAR what started the fires.

Talk about “snide” remarks!

Instead of your snide remarks in regards to asking steel questions, perhaps you care to learn about the clean up process?

Pot calling the kettle black!

THAT'S what my comment had to do with it. FAR from a red herring that you incorrectly claimed I was guilty of.

What was the FBI inspecting at the fresh Kills landfill?
Was the FBI testing the steel for thermite, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials?
If the FBI was testing for these residues can you please show your sources, Thank you.

My sources are listed in my previous post. I will not be baited into another "list your sources" battle. You always get sources from us and you NEVER i repeat NEVER read them or you just can't comprehend them. Either way, you are shown on a daily basis, answers to almost all of the questions you have raised here at ATS.

Speaking of “RED HERRINGS”! Your entire post is a RED HERRING and here is the “proof”, what dose anything you have quoted have to do with, NIST Investigation Violated National Fire Code?

You always get sources from us

Really! With what little sources you have given I have found most of them “not” creditable. You are still trying to prove a “lie”.

.

Either way, you are shown on a daily basis, answers to almost all of the questions you have raised here at ATS.

Really! Care to prove that? Furthermore, “you” were ask the questions, and as always You imply your own authority and expertise but fail to provide credentials, and you also fail to address issues and cite sources.

You haven't read it, yet YOU refute it. Interesting.

How can I refute it, if you claim I did not read it? Please!

Originally posted by cashlink There is “nothing” to defend in their findings it has now been “proven” that NIST used Pseudoscience to defraud the public.

What was proven ...exactly?

That NIST lied.

Was the WTC a crime scene, ............ gave the orders to Mayor Giuliani to seal off ground zero from crime scene investigators, and anyone else who had any interests in gathering evidences. Never in my life, have I seen such a mess clean up so quickly, this is not how crime scenes are treated.
Really? No investigators? I suggest you read my above post.

Mess cleaned up quickly? Hmmm... last piece of steel was Column No. 1,001 B of 2 World Trade Center it was removed in May of 2002. Roughly 8 months seem quick to you?

Washington, D.C. - President Bush has signed into law legislation sponsored by Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-Queens & Brooklyn) and Science Committee Chair Sherwood Boehlert (R - NY), and New York Senators Clinton and Schumer, to overhaul building collapse investigations. The National Construction Safety Team Act will ensure that the mishandled evidence and in-fighting that hobbled FEMA’s World Trade Center investigation never happens again. Rep. Weiner issued the following statement:
"No one would dispute that the attack on the World Trade Center could not have been anticipated. In many respects one can only marvel at the skill of the designers of the Twin Towers and the workmanship of the thousands of nameless steelworkers and laborers. Thousands of families will enjoy dinner together tonight because even under the most unimaginable of circumstances these proud buildings stood tall for more than an hour.
"But for the families of those lost this testament offers little consolation and leaves many questions about the causes of the collapse unanswered. And sadly, because of early missteps in the investigation, some of the most vexing questions may never be unraveled.
"Thousands of tons of steel were carted away from ground zero and recycled before any expert could examine what could have been tell-tale clues. Support trusses, fireproofing fragments and even burnt out electrical switches that might have given scientists and engineers insight were lost forever - even before an investigation was underway.
"These failures mean that we are short--even to this day--on conclusions about design decisions that may have contributed to the deaths of so many firefighters and workers on the top floors.

www.house.gov...

My opinion is, because the Bush administration who was behind putting the 911 commission together and the 911 commission hired NIST to do their part of the Government story using Pseudoscience to hide the truth. (The reasoned the national standard was not applied) is because it would have “revealed” the truth.

The 911 Commision did not hire NIST. Congress passed the National Construction Safety Team bill in October 2002, giving NIST the authority to conduct an investigation of the World Trade Center collapses.

Maybe so, however, I was only given an “opinion” not a fact. Would you care to talk about the rest of my “opinion” that I also made. ( I didn’t think so)

Ashamedamerican, you are right however, NIST was hoping that we where[sic] all too stupid to reliesed[sic] it, hoping we where diluted in Brittney Spears and all the media spoon-fed lies. Nothing new Government is always playing on our intelligent[sic] by using the propaganda machines the Media.

You do not have the right to add (sick quotes in my post!)

NIST was hoping that we where[sic]

all too stupid to reliesed[sic] it,

Nothing new Government is always playing on our intelligent[sic]

CameronFox, You added these sick [sic] quotes to my “post”! (shame on you.)
You talk about people given you snide remarks what do you call tampering with my post adding your own remarks in my quotes I think it is appalling.

I would ask you what you have found personally from your scathing critic of the NIST reports that lead to believe that they are erroneous...but I know you don't have an answer.

See there you go again with your snide remarks. (scathing critic)
Had, you even bother to read the NIST report, you would not be asking this question.











[edit on 12/17/2008 by cashlink]

Originally posted by Griff
2.25 seconds of freefall is a huge thing. Whether you guys want to acknowledge it or not.

Awww... I feel wanted!! Look how much you responded to me. Give me some time to get back to all your posts. I am at work and my now depleted staff are looking for free Chinese food.

In regards to WTC-7. I posted only twice on that existing thread. Why?

Well, Mr. Chandler didn't find anything new. From what I have read, Chandler confirmed what NIST was saying from the original document. NIST's actual collapse hypothesis states that the core was knocked out for over ten stories in the area he claims.There was no remaining support from below at the perimeter. NIST does not beleive any explosives were needed for this condition to happen.

In addition, S.E. David Rogers at JREF had this to say:

Yes, it's fairly obvious to me. There was a downward force due to gravity, which Heiwa finally seems to have noticed. There was an upward resistive force due to the structural strength of the facade. For a portion of the fall to be at an acceleration within error bars of 1G, there had to be an additional downward force exerted on the roofline of the building. There was nothing above the roofline that could possibly have exerted this force, so it must have been a tensile force from below; in other words, something was pulling (oops, that word again!) the roof downwards. There is no conceivable way that an explosion at a lower level could exert a tensile force on the structure at rooftop level, and even less so for thermite. However, momentum transfer from some other part of the building that was already falling could exert such a force. Since we know that the core collapse preceded the facade collapse by about 5 seconds, the only rational explanation is that some connection in the structure transferred downward momentum from the already falling core to the facade, which is fully consistent with NIST's finding that the facade collapse was initiated by the core collapse, which in turn propagated outwards from the failure of column 79.

source

I would like your thoughts on what Mr. Rogers is saying. Allow me to address your posts as the day progresses.

Originally posted by Griff

Again Cameron:
I guess you have forgotten this thread Cameron?

Now, if they did such a great job at fresh kills, why would the government admit that it botched the investigation? Why would new laws have to be written to ensure they don't botch another investigation?

First of all, I apologize for not getting back to you last evening. I got so frustrated with another poster on this thread I shut off my laptop and watched the idiot box for a few hours.

Now, in regards to the the Fresh Kills area. No, I didn't forget anything. The refrence I was making was that indeed there was an investigation. This had to be pointed out to another poster.

Yes, NIST had to have congress pass a law that entitled them to ALL evidence collected. This was something that was not passed on to the original investigators. I agree it should not have needed a "act of congress" to do this. Again, this was in response to another poster who claimed the 911 commission hired NIST. Which you now is false.

Never did I say that the investigation was "great." I am the first to admit that I believe NIST was totally pissed at the disorganization of the collection of the steel. Don't you think that they would have wanted SOME steel from WTC-7? Remember that there were tons of steel stolen at the beginning of the clean up, and sold? I believe they ended up putting lojack equipment on the vehicles that were trucking the steel out of ground zero.

The government botched something? Impossible. [/sarcasm]

Originally posted by Griff
So, in your mind, there was no reason to investigate OJ's involvement into Nicole's murder because "we all knew who did it."? Then why did the man walk free for 14 years?

Were there any witnesses to the murder?

When the autopsy for Nicole was done, did they check to see if she died of Pnemonia, AIDS, Leprocy, or Toxic Shock Syndrome?

My sources are listed in my previous post. I will not be baited into another "list your sources" battle. You always get sources from us and you NEVER i repeat NEVER read them or you just can't comprehend them. Either way, you are shown on a daily basis, answers to almost all of the questions you have raised here at ATS.

Now, I consider you my friend, but, are you reverting back to the "jthomas" syndrome?

Griff, this was a response to Cashlink, who consistently fails to read links that I post. I source all of my information unless it is an opinion. If so, I clearly note that, or if there is an obvious statement ie: two planed hit the WTC Tower. I do not think I need a source for that.

Originally posted by Griff
So, because people actually didn't run away and tried to help others, they are now considered to be "not prematurely returning to her home". And are worthy of death?

Again Cameron, you're starting to make me sick to my stomach that I have considered you a friend. No offense of course, but this is low.

No, you have totally misconstrued what I was saying. It was in reply to Spreston. Spreston made a claim that the EPA allowed people to return to their homes prematurely, causing them harm to their health.

I simply asked how many people have died after returning to their homes after the EPA stated that it was safe to do so?

The person he gave in his post was NOT a victim of the EPA making false claims about the air quality. She was a victim of the collapses.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by CameronFox
Crime scenes that involve fire need to be investigated. IT was OBVIOUS what caused the fires.

Was it?

To 99.9% of the worlds population it was. You have something you want to share?

Originally posted by CameronFox
To 99.9% of the worlds population it was. You have something you want to share?

Wishful thinking unless you can produce something proving that stat. No one asked me yet and I feel there needed to be far more investigation. I notice that you dodge questions you cannot answer and ignore them just go for cashlink. I would thank you not to pretend to speak for me or anyone I know that feels as I do about 9/11.

Tell me something. What kind of integrity do any of your posts have when you state things as fact such as

To 99.9% of the worlds population it was.

?

Originally posted by cashlink


Again, what dose this have to do with ( NIST Investigation Violated National Fire Code?)

Once again Cash, you need to reread the title of the thread, the OP, then my response. If you don't understand, I can't help you.

Talk about “snide” remarks!

See my response to Griff regarding Nicole Brown Simpson's murder.

Instead of your snide remarks in regards to asking steel questions, perhaps you care to learn about the clean up process?

Pot calling the kettle black!

I assume you didn't read any of the link I provided.

Speaking of “RED HERRINGS”! Your entire post is a RED HERRING and here is the “proof”, what dose anything you have quoted have to do with, NIST Investigation Violated National Fire Code?

Please refer to my first point on this post.

Really! With what little sources you have given I have found most of them “not” creditable. You are still trying to prove a “lie”.

You have found them not credible? Can you please tell me what criteria is involved in your process of determining what is and what isn't credible.

Really! Care to prove that? Furthermore, “you” were ask the questions, and as always You imply your own authority and expertise but fail to provide credentials, and you also fail to address issues and cite sources.

Um, what? My OWN authority? Care to show me where I do that?

Do you really want me to go through your posts and point out your errors and your handwaving of evidence?

How can I refute it, if you claim I did not read it? Please!

Well if you have read it, this is not the response you would have given.

That NIST lied.

You will not be able to provide any evidence of this, so I won't even bother to ask for it.

My opinion is, because the Bush administration who was behind putting the 911 commission together and the 911 commission hired NIST to do their part of the Government story using Pseudoscience to hide the truth. (The reasoned the national standard was not applied) is because it would have “revealed” the truth.

Maybe so, however, I was only given an “opinion” not a fact. Would you care to talk about the rest of my “opinion” that I also made. ( I didn’t think so)

Not "maybe," it is a fact. You are basing an opinion on false information. You information that you gathered to form your opinion is not accurate.

Ashamedamerican, you are right however, NIST was hoping that we where[sic] all too stupid to reliesed[sic] it, hoping we where diluted in Brittney Spears and all the media spoon-fed lies. Nothing new Government is always playing on our intelligent[sic] by using the propaganda machines the Media.

You do not have the right to add (sick quotes in my post!)

NIST was hoping that we where[sic]

all too stupid to reliesed[sic] it,

Nothing new Government is always playing on our intelligent[sic]

CameronFox, You added these sick [sic] quotes to my “post”! (shame on you.)

Look Cash, you have been hounding be regarding my posting of sources. You know I do a great job of this. I take it kind of personal when you accuse me of not being honest regarding my posts. Therefore, you put me in a position to point out to you that if you are going to speak about the intelligence of someone, you should at least use spell check. I do apologize if this upset you and I will refrain from it in the future.