To Believe Or Not To Believe That Is The Question

reply to post by gYvMessanger


It depends on how you define "God". Do I believe I was created organ by organ by a supernatural being? Absolutely not. Could a living super-intelligent organism potentially have had something to do with the creation of the universe? I would have to argue this is a distinct possibility.

Just imagine growing bacteria in a Petri dish, you didn't create the bacteria but you allowed them to thrive in a controlled environment in which you created.

Is there scientific evidence that backs up a God? I don't think there will ever be a solid enough piece of evidence known to man-kind that will undoubtedly and 100% prove the existence of a supernatural creator. The evidence that may exist to prove this would have to exist in the 4th dimension (outside of what we call space) - a place that we may never reach. If we did reach the 4th dimension, composing scientific evidence would be beyond our current ability to comprehend it.

reply to post by Unsane

Basically I agree with you on the point 'Where did the universe come from' it's bizarre! But I think there is a better answer than the God from scripture.

Totally agree! So what is the answer? It is obvious if one opens their incredible eye, that there is something beyond our ignorance.

Is it possible we have been applying the wrong rationale?

reply to post by gYvMessanger

So ATS why do you believe in god / don't believe in god, and tell us what bought you to that conclusion.

I believe.

It was not hard for me to do. I have had the sense of a presence of something prior to going to school and even prior to ever having heard the word God.

Then, and until 2001, I perceived this presence as outside of me and yes, it did listen. In 2001 I discovered that not only am I inside of this presence, but this presence is also inside of me too.

This nearly always having known of this presence caused me to be naive in thinking that everyone else had this too. And, it became my greatest strength when I wished desperately to deny God's existence. I thought that by becoming an atheist it would end a grueling three year search to understand God and I would have peace about the whole matter.

Who was it who said: "The worst lies are the ones we tell ourselves."? I am glad I decided against lying to myself and continued with the most difficult thing I have ever been through and have received an unshakable peace and faith.

Originally posted by Unsane
Yes, it is. So you agree that species can change 'within their kind' (what is a 'kind' anyway?) but you think this change can happen in less than 6000 years? This period of time is no where near enough time for the type of changes you are talking about.

the examples i cited happened within one generation with the birds. the birds changed because of a radical change in there environment.

the moths, it was within several years.

minor changes can happen very quick. however, there are limits. and some geneticist are finding this out. there are limits to how far genes will "bend". if you want citation, i believe there is an experiment with "hairs" on a bug. there was an average number found in the species, and the geneticist tried to bread them for that they grow more.

cant remember where though sorry.

The next stage is to extend the process out over a long timeframe. What happens? A big series of changes, right?

no, not really. some evolutionist try to show the evolution of the eye by showing this progressive chart of different eyes. problem is, all the eyes were present in species from the beginning and all the different form exist even today.

the fossil record shows boney fish, with completely formed eyes in the cambrian.

yet today we have the nautilus with it's pinhole eye, a living fossil if you will.

if there was this "arms race" to form eyes, wouldnt it be logical to say that the nautilus would be inferior and would be phased out? yet there he is chugging away.

'acknowledge' being the operative word here, does not mean that there isn't one waiting for us to find it. In certain cases, we DO have a good record of changes. I managed to dig this out, which I hope explains transitioanl fossils quite well.

i dont usually post creationist websites, they usually just give me a headache with stuff like "god put fossils there to test us"

but this one is good, it actually talks about the data. i noticed the video mentioned the tiktaalik. so this is an interesting article about that

creationontheweb.com...

Sorry to go back to this, but irreducibility complexity takes this back further. The person built the house, God built the person, who built God?

why would god need to be built?

logic dictates that something (doesnt necessarily have to be god) HAS to have no beginning. other wise at some point there is nothing. something cannot come from nothing

If God was the beginning, the complexity of God needs to be taken into account. I would say that God is more complex than the universe, as he created it.

On the other hand, If the universe just 'was' there are the beginning, like God was, then the complexity of the universe is taken into account. The universe is less complex than a God, therefore it is more likely to have been there at the beginning.

im not sure i understand what your saying.

the impression im getting is that if the universe has no beginning, then it accounts for its own complexity, but if god has no beginnning then somehow this doesnt account for his complexity?