How can America Claim Seperation of Church and State?

Think about it. The United States claims to be non-religiously biased, but their official national motto is "In God We Trust". Either admit that your government is biased towards Christianity, or update your nation's policies and wordings to reflect the non-biased society that you all seem to go on about. And don't say that America was founded by a bunch of Protestants who fled England, because the Amerindians were there first, and I don't see any of their religious beliefs represented in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence.

It's an ideal. Sadly, one we are far from reaching.

I totally "admit", our government is "in bed" and tied up with religion, specifically Christianity. And I hate it. I believe in the ideals of the Constitution and we would do ourselves a great favor by releasing the bonds of religion over our government and operating as we were intended to.

Many are working to do just that. And we have the religious "lobbyists" and groups fighting against it. It's a struggle, but I hope the Constitution will win.

There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution of the United States of America that says that the government is not biased toward any religion.

The Constitution states that there can be no religious test in order to hold any office (meaning that belonging, or not belonging to any religion does not bar a person from holding office), and that the Congress shall make no law infringing on the right to practice (or not practice) any religion a person chooses to have.

There is not one word in the Constitution that calls for, or requires, that there be a total separation between "Church and State".

Please point out where such wording occurs.

This is solely a concept from the secular humanists, and is NOT and NEVER has been a part of the Constitution.


As to the Amerindian question. I descend from one of the many Amerindian tribes. They had no notion of nationhood, other than their own tribe or band. Their rules, customs, etc. variesd widely, and there was no such thing as a cohesive whole.

Open warfare broke out between the Natives and the colonists as early as the 1640's in what is now the USA. At no time was an Indian notion even considered as being a part of the Constitution of the USA, and the country has never claimed that it was.

Oh yes, just to set the record straight, Colonists to the Americas were Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Animists and just about every other religion known in Europe. Maryland was a "Catholic" Colony. Rhode Island has the oldest Jewish Synagog in the US, dating from the 1640's.

This is one thing that really pisses me off, and always has. The word God is everywhere in the Government, we even put our hand on the Bible in a court of law! Makes me so sick to my stomach.

Reminds me when I was in school I refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance all throughout high school. Can you believe that I served several in-school, after-school, and weekend detentions for this?

That is true, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not actually appear anywhere in the Constitution. There is a problem, however, in that some people draw incorrect conclusions from this fact. The absence of this phrase does not mean that it is an invalid concept or that it cannot be used as a legal or judicial principle.

It may not be there, but it's purpose is.

Similarly, courts have found that the principle of a "religious liberty" exists behind in the First Amendment, even if those words are not actually there:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here.

"Separation of church and state" is a paraphrase that most Americans do not understand. It's not really a mutual deal. It's meant to keep the State out of the Church, not the Church out of the State.

Edit: I agree that "God" should be taken out of everything you see. IE the pledge, the money, and swearing on a bible in a court of law.

[edit on 15-12-2008 by Sliick]

Originally posted by Sliick
"Separation of church and state" is a paraphrase that most Americans do not understand. It's not really a mutual deal. It's meant to keep the State out of the Church, not the Church out of the State.

That is true. But Jefferson clearly talked about a wall of separation between church and state. And we don't have that today.

The church interferes and tries to interfere in the first, ninth and 14th amendments by forcing the government to make laws regarding abortion, equal rights to all citizens, privacy and liberty of the people. I don't think Jefferson would see this as a well-established wall of separation.

Separation of Church and State is NOT in the US Constitution.

(wish it were)

What the Constitution says is this - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

In 1802 Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists and generally this is what the 'separation of church and state' idea comes from. NOT from the Constitution.

reply to post by OldMedic


As for the first part of that, how many senators/congressmen/presidents who have not been Christian? And for the Amerindians, they're totally ignored by the Constitution.

reply to post by ShadeWolf


We are a Christian nation. Founded by Christians on Judeo-Christian principles. The founding Fathers prayed daily.
No where in our governmental documents does it say "Seperation of Church and State." That is in the FEDERALIST PAPERS which the majority of you Libs pick and choose from.

We will always be a Christian nation...oh wait...the savior said "We are no longer a Chritian nation."

I am sorry God offends you. Toughen up cowboy.

I agree that there are many people that don't even know what the meaning of separation of church and states mean, and those have probably never even looked at the constitution.

As for those saying that "god bless america" should not be allowed. They are not saying which god. Many people worship different gods. Nobody is trying to tell you which god you should worship, if any.

reply to post by ShadeWolf


"In God we trust" does not promote Christianity any more than any other religion based on monotheism.

You are the one putting the Christian slant on it.

I guess the government is so leaned on religion because most of the people that live in America is Christian. However, that is no excused for why they are so biased towards Christianity.

Originally posted by crmanager
reply to post by ShadeWolf

 

We are a Christian nation. Founded by Christians on Judeo-Christian principles. The founding Fathers prayed daily.
No where in our governmental documents does it say "Seperation of Church and State." That is in the FEDERALIST PAPERS which the majority of you Libs pick and choose from.

We will always be a Christian nation...oh wait...the savior said "We are no longer a Chritian nation."

I am sorry God offends you. Toughen up cowboy.

God cannot offend.

It is yours and yours only imaginary friend...

However, anybody telling me that I should accept it as something which is self evident, can in various degrees come by as annoying and ignorant.

Our government should never ever take that role if it wants to be a shining beacon of the freedom in this world

Separation of church and state is done to protect religious freedom, not to get rid of it. Even among Christians there are many different beliefs, if the states starts making religious laws it would take away the religious freedoms of everyone.

Anyone saying that this country was founded by Christians and that is a Christian nation just doesn't know the facts. It was based on Christian principles, NOT on the Christian religion. Jefferson himself created his own bible just out of the words of Jesus, without all the miracle stuff and sun references etc. But they very much ALL disliked Church and State being mixed, because they knew it meant nobody would have religious freedoms.

A few notes on what is ok and not ok with seperation of church and state.

It is OK for you to have your own religion and speak about it openly. It is OK for you to bring things related to religion and display them in your office(10 commandments for example).

It is not OK to spend 1 penny of taxpayers dime on anything to do with religion. It is not OK to try and tell people when they can and can not prey.

When it says government shall make no laws regarding religion it means in either favor of, or against. The only time it is proper for the federal government to step in on religion is if a state is infringing on these rights, then it is job of the federal government to step in - it's what their function is supposed to be - not the other way around as is today.

And btw, In God we Trust is put on federal reserve notes, which is a private bank and can do what it wants - unfortunately. Personally, I think it's a shame to even have that on the money, as it is nothing more than economic slavery, one of the biggest sins of the bible and as the money is backed by nothing, it's trying to take the place of god in society, but that is another topic in itself.





[edit on 15-12-2008 by badmedia]

As it stands, there is no violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment's establishment clause. There is nothing in the constitution mandating a separation of church and state in those exact terms. As long as the US government does not pass laws that affect different religions unequally, the constitution is not infracted upon.

Frankly, though, I wish that there was more separation of church and state.

Originally posted by mdiinican
As it stands, there is no violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment's establishment clause. There is nothing in the constitution mandating a separation of church and state in those exact terms. As long as the US government does not pass laws that affect different religions unequally, the constitution is not infracted upon.

Frankly, though, I wish that there was more separation of church and state.

Actually, it is pretty clear because it says congress shall make no law. It doesn't say it can't make any law as long as it treats religions equally. In fact, the constitution says anything not specifically listed is not even allowed to be done in the first place, that being the 10th amendment part of the lock on the bill of rights.

Where does congress get the authority to write any laws dealing with religion? It doesn't have any.

Of course, the people who think the constitution is just a document and form of government which gives us limited rights, instead of a document that gives us limited government seem to have no concept of this what so ever.

The rights listed in the constitution are NOT your only rights. Read and understand the 10th amendment, which states that anything not specifically given to the government is by default passed down to the states/individuals.

With the general welfare clause abuse, which "allows" congress to do anything it can present as being "good" and "for the general welfare" it completely flipped the constitution on it's end, and did what I mentioned above. However, the general welfare clause is just the place that gives congress permission to uphold the amendments, as laid out in the preamble that part of the constitution is to promote the general welfare, and the parts that do that are the amendments - which can be added to, and the general welfare clause directly gives permission to congress to provide. It's clear as day.

Do you want limited rights, or you do you want limited government and freedom? There is no place in the constitution which gives the government permission to make any laws, for or against religion.

reply to post by OldMedic


Even if everything you say is undeniably true and correct. That still doesn't mean it's right.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


The government, if "in bed" with religion or are with religious agendas, it is definitely not that of a Christian.

Christianity says that ..."the love of money is the root of all evil..."
there is nothing wrong with making money, there is nothing wrong with making a lot of money, but then people start to love their money/power(sometimes money means power) things start to fall apart and that is exactly what is happening in todays world. America is slowly becoming the opposite of what it was founded on. We America, the big brother to many nations is now the biggest cry baby country in the history of humanity. We based ourselves on Christianity, were shown grace and mercy and now we are trying to kick God out of every corner of this nation? no wonder why its going down the tubes.

reply to post by Yoda411


and you my friend... maybe you just respect the flag like everyone else... show respect to those who fought and died for your freedom, show respect for those who are still fighting to defend your rights... people like me (USAF)

makes you sick to your stomach? why? because we, at one time, we depended on a wisdom higher than our own? lol think about the 10 commandments for a good 24 hours. and tell me what exactly is wrong with them if we applied those to our country today... just imagine, kids honoring their fathers and mothers, people not cheating on each other, people getting married first before having kids, people not lying anymore, people not stealing, people not killing... there is nothing wrong with the bible holding a high place in our nation.


One Nation under God, In God we Trust, everything about out nation that has to do with God is part of our heritage, its a part of our history, its a part of who we are as a nation. to take God out of America would take away the meaning of a free nation.

EDIT: Government in bed with religion?... oh no, it looks like the government is just using the comforter and sheets to to give the people comfort.

We the people = little red riding hood
USA government = Wolf

before we know it, it will be too late and the government will destroy all that we stand for as the United States of America

[edit on 16-12-2008 by Methuselah]

reply to post by ShadeWolf


America is built upon this very thought process...
Say one thing, and do another..

Seperate church and state.. Hmmm lets think back to Pat Robertson..
That sertinly keys it up for us..
He has much power in the right wing.. And is a gatekeeper of the right wing fundies..

Ive learned not to be so full of anger about religions..
I know some great folks who help out many.. and are good souls, doing the right thing.
I also know some evil, vile, and hateful people who use the cloth, and faith to shroud their true nature...

Originally posted by crmanager
We are a Christian nation. Founded by Christians on Judeo-Christian principles. The founding Fathers prayed daily.

The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Source

Can't get much clearer than that. Also, what do you think it means by "not in any sense"?

Thanks!

PS: A.H: Muslim date system (After Hijra - Muhammad assuming political control in Mecca), Musselmen - Muslims, Mehomitan (followers of Muhammad).
PPS: What evidence we have shows that the founding fathers were not Christians but deists.

[edit on 16/12/2008 by Hesperornis]