U.S.: India prepared for strike on Pakistan

For what it's worth, countries in possession of nukes have conflicts all the time... and don't use them. Some of you are just bad karma, I swear. Almost like some folks *want* a nuclear war. India and Pakistan could very well get into a full scale conflict... while not a single nuke would be used. Most countries realize the futility of using them. Using them guarantees you will be destroyed in turn. It's a suicide attack. Most countries have no desire to kill themsevles off to make a point.

if that was the case ... why would Condoleezza Rice bother to make that trip to pakistan practically begging them to co-operate with india when mumbai was attacked?

It's called good cop/ bad cop. So The US govt looks a little more innocent.

Originally posted by wylekat

if that was the case ... why would Condoleezza Rice bother to make that trip to pakistan practically begging them to co-operate with india when mumbai was attacked?

It's called good cop/ bad cop. So The US govt looks a little more innocent.

if that's what they were trying to do ... surely they'd send somebody more popular than Condoleezza Rice?

These two countries will nuke each other if given the chance. Im sure this is where a nuclear war will start. I bet India will strike first. India will do it when we are not watching. how do you think India developed nuclear weapons in the first place. by being sneaky.. they never told the U.S. what they were up too, The U.S only found out after the test.

being a former officer in the military, I can tell you for a fact that our government also suspects this. India will launch on Pakistan if we are not watching them close. ( we are, and do everyday ) let's hope India doesn’t try something stupid. India cannot be trusted with that type of power. The U.S military knows that. The military just don't make it public. It's India we have to worry about. If India does do a launch it will effect our entire west coast and the Asian pacific. There just itching to launch just one if given the chance.

I’ve met some of their officer's a few years back on training. All I can say is they need some serious training and discipline . they do know how to march well. that's about it. Oh, they seem to hold this very personal grudge on Pakistan. that's bad for any aviation officer. It makes me un-easy. If any of their officers are given an order to stand-down from a pre-launch I kind of wonder if they will. and just let the bird flying off the wing anyway. and say , “Oh well”. because that's the perception I got from their aviation officers. Im not sure if they would defy an order or not for a personal vendetta. Some of them talked about a senerio just like this current situation. Seems like they all want to be a hero, despite what there orders are. And if given the chance they just might want too . thats what scares me though. We need need to get some tomcats in the air off the med and do some painting just to let them know were still their.



We also need to send someone better than Rice over their to India. Colin Powell would be the best person to send and talk to them. Also India doing these flyover's is not good sign.





[edit on 16-12-2008 by SJE98]

[edit on 16-12-2008 by SJE98]

reply to post by SJE98


As opposed to the armed forces of a country that developed nukes and then proceeded to annihilate two cities of innocent people?

Say whatever you want about India (and Pakistan), but until one of them uses a nuke its slightly unfair to say that they are being irresponsible with them.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Nothing is going to happen. I'll put money on it. This is just more hype and will be a non-event. Folks will be talking about this for months just like they do about the impending Iranian strike that has yet to happen.

There have been wars before between the two.

In one of them millions of bengali's were killed.

There has been a lot of terror attacks over the past few years
and anger is building and it may or may not burst the dam.

The past shows they can and are willing to fight, but it has never
escalated to using the nukes so far.

If the radical islamists sieze the nukes then all bets are off.

India vs. Pakistan is stage one.

China vs. Russia is stage two.

Stage three is... you don't want to know.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has been planning WWIII for a long time - at least this time we won't be going off without being full-cocked. Unfortunately, WWIII is only instrumental to further other greater objectives.

FWIW you can find some of this fellow's idiot savant strategic wanderings in my signature link, the Georgia Guidestones however remain anonymous.

Originally posted by SJE98
These two countries will nuke each other if given the chance.

So the only reason they're not nuking each other is because 'someone' is not allowing them to do so? Please.. Give these countries some more credit..

Im sure this is where a nuclear war will start. I bet India will strike first.

I bet not..
Though I do bet you don't know squat about the nuclear doctrines of India and Pakistan. Or their force parity. Because if you DID know these things then you would know that :

1)India has an Official no-first-use nuclear wespons doctrine (Only other country having that is China). Pak Prez Zardari did make some feeble comments indicating that PAkistan could adopt a no-first-use policy but the attempts were immediately shot down by the Pak Military. Without the preemptive option, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is impotent at best, due to their serious inferiority when is comes to conventional military might as compared to India. Which leads me to my next point.

2)The Indian Military and war fighting machine (technology, infrastructure, logistics, economy etc) is exponentially superior to that of Pakistan's. India does not need nuclear weapons to 'win' an armed conflict with Pakistan.
Pakistan however does need the nuclear 'deterrent' to discourage India from any conventional military misadventure-ism.

India will do it when we are not watching. how do you think India developed nuclear weapons in the first place. by being sneaky.. they never told the U.S. what they were up too, The U.S only found out after the test.

They did it by fooling the daisies out of various American intelligence agencies; military and federal. And for good reason. No one needs to take the permission of the United States to carry out its own strategic policy. Unless of course the United States can 'influence' that decision making by political/economic/military arm twisting. India was/is to large to be susceptible to such arm twisting. Hence events unfolded as they did.

being a former officer in the military, I can tell you for a fact that our government also suspects this.

God help you and your country if what you say is true. Because what I have just typed above is common geo-strategic knowledge. Every arm-chari general would concur; let alone 'former military officers' as it were

India will launch on Pakistan if we are not watching them close. ( we are, and do everyday ) let's hope India doesn’t try something stupid. India cannot be trusted with that type of power. The U.S military knows that. The military just don't make it public.

Right.. I smell a rat here. An uneducated one.. When it comes to Nuclear Proliferation comparision between India and Pakistan any layman can tell who has their hands dirty and who doesn't.
Hec.. ANY nuclear power has a better proferation record than Pakistan. AQ Khan, Iran, North Korea.. "Former Military officers" should know that.

It's India we have to worry about. If India does do a launch it will effect our entire west coast and the Asian pacific. There just itching to launch just one if given the chance.

Its you I'm interested about. Because either you are grossly misinformed, or you have motivations that I have not ascertained as of now. I look forward to more posts from you to unearth your true motive in posting this nonsense.

I’ve met some of their officer's a few years back on training. All I can say is they need some serious training and discipline . they do know how to march well. that's about it. Oh, they seem to hold this very personal grudge on Pakistan.

When and where? Names; ranks and (you said aviation) so sqn numbers. Ball's in your court. ATS treats intentional fallacy posting very seriously. So be careful on what you concoct.

that's bad for any aviation officer. It makes me un-easy. If any of their officers are given an order to stand-down from a pre-launch I kind of wonder if they will.

You make me uneasy.

and just let the bird flying off the wing anyway. and say , “Oh well”. because that's the perception I got from their aviation officers. Im not sure if they would defy an order or not for a personal vendetta. Some of them talked about a senerio just like this current situation. Seems like they all want to be a hero, despite what there orders are. And if given the chance they just might want too . thats what scares me though.

We need need to get some tomcats in the air off the med and do some painting just to let them know were still their.

The the USN still have operational F-14 sqns? Wouldn't a former military officer know that? Anyhoo.. Tomcats wouldn't stand a chance against the 4th gen air-sup fighters currently operational in the IAF.

We also need to send someone better than Rice over their to India. Colin Powell would be the best person to send and talk to them. Also India doing these flyover's is not good sign.

I think what WE need to do is determine who you really are and what motives you bring to this discussion. If truly uninformed and benign, I think that should not be a big deal; but I just cannot see how a former military officer (esp one selected to liaise with visiting foreign members) is so uninformed about strategic equations in that very area.




[edit on 16-12-2008 by SJE98]

[edit on 16-12-2008 by SJE98]

[edit on 17-12-2008 by Daedalus3]

India has never invaded another country
I hope it doesn't start now because of the U.S.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
India has never invaded another country
I hope it doesn't start now because of the U.S.

It's debatable to say the least!

"On August 15, 1965, Indian forces crossed the ceasefire line and launched an attack on the region referred to by the disputants as either "Azad Kashmir" or "Pakistan-occupied Kashmir". Pakistani reports cite this attack as unprovoked,[9] while Indian reports cite the attack as a response to massive armed infiltrations of Kashmir by Pakistan.[10]"

en.wikipedia.org...

Do these blind nationalistic perpertrators of falsehood EVER stop I wonder?

reply to post by Jinni


Since Kashmir is Indian land, it wasn't an act of war. A country is entitled to move troops to anywhere it wants within its sovereign territory.

Still, that was a while ago.

Now the spineless politicians in Delhi don't even dare to cross the LoC, not even during Kargil. Doing things by the book cost the lives of many soldiers during that war.

Perhaps formalising the LoC into a border is the only pragmatic way to do things...

BTW you failed to mention en.wikipedia.org... Operation Gibraltar.

You're really pathetic mate. There are some great impartial, analytical posters on ATS but you're nothing but a Pakistani supporter posing as a moderate, impartial analyst. If you're really impartial then where's the criticism of Pakistan... anywhere? Are they blameless? Are they really a land of Pakis (word for "pure" in Urdu)?



[edit on 18-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by Jinni

 

Since Kashmir is Indian land,...

That's debateable to say the least! Kashmir belongs to Kashmiri people.

OK let's play your game, India is British land [you like that?]. Remember 'Bombay'. Why is it acceptable for you to say India is NOT British land and Kashmir IS. You must also think Pakistan is also Indian land too?

Since you think Kashmir is Indian land is it acceptable to murder and terrorise hundreds of thousands of people? Boy, you treat your people -very- well. Oh, what's that? They are Muslim so they deserve it?

Unbelievable.




P.S. I have critised Pak Gov every chance I get! See my previous posts... Sop you are either a liar, deceiver or just plain ignorant.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by Jinni]

reply to post by Jinni


Thanks for proving my point.

Don't ever talk as though you're coming from an impartial point of view again. You're worse than token. I respect him for at least being honest to his beliefs and being blatantly pro-Pakistan.

If you're with Pakistan, or are Pakistani then just stand in that corner and declare your interests and intentions.

Its perfectly fine to be biased/ prefer one country over another. Just admit it and don't bitch on about other people being "blind nationalists" when you are plainly one yourself.

And provide sources for this supposed genocide of "hundreds of thousands" of muslims that India is conducting in Kashmir... go on.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by Jinni

 

Thanks for proving my point.

Don't ever talk as though you're coming from an impartial point of view again. You're worse than token. I respect him for at least being honest to his beliefs and being blatantly pro-Pakistan.

If you're with Pakistan, or are Pakistani then just stand in that corner and declare your interests and intentions.

Its perfectly fine to be biased/ prefer one country over another. Just admit it and don't bitch on about other people being "blind nationalists" when you are plainly one yourself.

And provide sources for this supposed genocide of "hundreds of thousands" of muslims that India is conducting in Kashmir... go on.

I haven't proved your point? Have you lost your mind?

To reiterate - I'm FOR the justice and peace for all but I have NO faith in the corrupt Indian Government and Pakistani Governments.

You must be absolutely brainwashed if you are asking for sources on Kashmir - go start with the UN.

You sir, ARE a blind nationalist, your allegations are nonsense and your ignorance is blinding.

If you ask one more time on Kashmir I will flood my next post with evidence that shows the terrorism pepertrated by India in Kashmir. But the problem is there, why do I have to do that if you are so impartial yourself?

Just because I don't agree with you it DOESN'T mean I'm Pakistani or hold Pakistan as my interest.

You are obviously someone not worthy of debate or discussion and it seems that your brainwashing has dominated you.

reply to post by Jinni


I am NOT impartial nor have I ever claimed to be.

How can I be impartial when my relatives have served in wars against Pakistan, when they continue to stand guard on the border and witness the ravaging effects of terrorism in Kashmir and when my own countrymen are slain by the hand of the enemy.

Please do provide some sources proving Indian genocide in Kashmir. I will read them with interest.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by Jinni

 

I am NOT impartial nor have I ever claimed to be.

How can I be impartial when my relatives have served in wars against Pakistan, when they continue to stand guard on the border and witness the ravaging effects of terrorism in Kashmir and when my own countrymen are slain by the hand of the enemy.

Please do provide some sources proving Indian genocide in Kashmir. I will read them with interest.

So you are proving my point.

So just because your background is Indian you have turned a blind eye to the atrocities in Kashmir!

Furthermore, I have NOT said Pakistan HAS NOT gone into India! You are right about Operation Gibraltar (and Kargil). WHAT I WAS CONTESTING is the opinion that India NEVER invaded. Can you understand English in posts or is it your programming that filters such information out?

OK, it seems you are NOT willing to do a simple search for articles and records of the Indian oppression in Kashmir (I thought even morons could use Google nowadays!?).

I'll post you some stuff for you to 'consider' - don't make me laugh!



Here's something for starters:

saif_w.tripod.com/current/kashmir/hr_violations_in_kashmir.htm

[edit on 18-12-2008 by Jinni]

reply to post by Jinni


I have never, ever read a single credible source which claims that India is perpetrating genocide in Kashmir.

The only Kashmiri genocide that I am aware of is of the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits.

Example of a totally impartial source (which is scathingly critical of India, yet recognises the genocide of Pandits):

/4vogb9

Your last post was more of the same... hot air and deflection.

Show me a single credible source. I want one without the words "Islam" or "Pakistan" in them. I want an impartial source. I've tried googling it but I always get Muslim, Pakistani or Hurriyat sites which are obviously not going to be impartial. Get me a single source from a Swiss human rights monitor, or a Scandinavian news agency, Reuters, AFP or AP even... just get SOMETHING to back up your claims of genocide without resorting to Pakistani run sites.

Its time for you to put up or shut up my friend.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

[edit on 18-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by Jinni

 

I have never, ever read a single credible source which claims that India is perpetrating genocide in Kashmir.

The only Kashmiri genocide that I am aware of is of the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits.

Example of a totally impartial source (which is scathingly critical of India, yet recognises the genocide of Pandits):

/4vogb9

Your last post was more of the same... hot air and deflection.

Show me a single credible source. I want one without the words "Islam" or "Pakistan" in them. I want an impartial source. I've tried googling it but I always get Muslim, Pakistani or Hurriyat sites which are obviously not going to be impartial. Get me a single source from a Swiss human rights monitor, or a Scandinavian news agency, Reuters, AFP or AP even... just get SOMETHING to back up your claims of genocide without resorting to Pakistani run sites.

Its time for you to put up or shut up my friend.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

[edit on 18-12-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Bwahahah!

Oh my! You haven't read the document or the source properly.

No point of discussion.

The document on the site is:

"A Briefing Paper
of the
Humanitarian Law Project (HLP)
International Educational Development (IED)
Association Of Humanitarian Lawyers
Prepared by Karen Parker, J.D.
Presented to
The United Nations Commission on Human Rights
1996 Session, March, Geneva"

Part I:
130.94.183.89...
Part II:
130.94.183.89...
Part III:
130.94.183.89...

Grave breaches of humanitarian law continued unabated in 1996. Civilian casualties mount and estimates now indicate over 25000 killed since January of 1990. Casualties include women, children (from infants to young boys and girls). Most of these deaths have direct humanitarian law implications: (1) they were perpetrated by military forces of India in the course of the conflict in Kashmir; (2) they are not "incidental civilian casualties" and must be viewed as violations of the right to life under humanitarian law.

25,000 killed from 90-96 you do the math! If you can (1947-2008/9).



[edit on 18-12-2008 by Jinni]

[edit on 18-12-2008 by Jinni]

from Part III;

(1) murder and torture of captured combatants -- POWs. POWs have none of their rights under Geneva Convention and customary rules.

As we set out above, the Indian forces do not comply at all with humanitarian law provisions regarding treatment of prisoners-of-war. To our best knowledge, there are no publicly- acknowledged POW camps. No human rights investigator has ever found a POW camp. International monitoring in this area is non- existent. However, it is clear that the Indian forces are able to capture some opposition combatants, and it must be assumed that these POWs are tortured and killed in violation of the Geneva Conventions and customary standards.

(2) rape of Kashmiri women carried out on a large scale.

In our past reports, we set out examples of war-time rape of Kashmiri women. Since our last report, we have verified more than 200 such rapes in Doda and the valley in January 1994 alone. In some of the outlying areas, during the same period 5 women were found dead after dying under rape. Rape continues to be a major means of Indian oppression against Kashmiri people.

(3) constant and continuing armed attacks against the civilian population in Kashmir.

Our investigators consistently verify that the vast majority of casualties in the Kashmiri war are civilians, caught up in "crackdowns", "sweeps" or just gunned down or tortured to death. Other human rights investigations have also verified the same pattern of civilian casualties and large numbers of custodial deaths.

(4) the refusal by Indian authorities to allow public, independent, unfettered monitoring of the situation.

The Indian authorities have consistently refused permission for independent, international monitoring of the situation in Kashmir. Human rights organizations such as ours are routinely denied permission to investigate openly. Although India has permitted one assessment visit by the International Committee of the Red Cross and one by the International Commission of Jurists in recent years, apparently other organizations have had difficulty arranging open investigation. The International Federation of Human Rights and Amnesty International have been recently denied permission to visit.

(5) attacks on hospitals and medical personnel.

Our investigators have reported on the poor conditions in hospitals and clinics, in part because of forays by Indian troops into medical facilities. Some hospitals have noticeable bullet holes. A 1994 report by a British doctor contains eyewitnesses accounts that are similar to our investigators findings: there have been raids on Lal Ded Women's Hospital and doctors and medical personnel are "threatened beaten and detained." A colleague of that doctor told how Indian forces had beaten him, fracturing his arm.

(6) interference with communications and humanitarian assistance.

In 1995 there were numerous attacks on journalists and oncommunication in general. Journalist Mushtaq Ali (Agence France-Presse) was killed on September 7, 1995. Other journalists havebeen harassed, attacked and arrested. The media is severelyrestricted. Humanitarian aid is severely limited as outsidegroups are not allowed to provide medicine and other reliefmaterials.

(7) destruction of Kashmiri villages, cultural artifacts, etc..

This report sets out several of the many incidents of thedestruction of revered places, shrines and cultural places byIndian forces. Whole villages have been burned to the ground inthe course of the long war. Srinagar and other manor citiesclearly show the effects of repeated military operations.

(8) torture of POWs and civilians.

At time of writing there are approximately 60 interrogationcenters of the Indian forces in Kashmir where torture is anevery-day occurrence. The International Federation of HumanRights has been meticulous in its own clandestine investigationsand in its interviews with people outside of Kashmir who spenttime in the various centers to verify the existence and practicesof these centers. While our delegates have seen much evidenceof torture, we also point out that many of the reports of non-governmental organizations listed in the bibliography providedetained evidence of the practice of torture in Kashmir. TheUnited Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture also documentsincidence of torture in India-occupied Kashmir. The InternationalRehabilitation Council for Torture Victims (Copenhagen) have alsoverified torture of kashmiris by Indian forces.

(9) serious violations of the rights of civilian and military detainees.

All supported by international human right references etc.

I don't know why but the research and findings of Human Right lawyers seem to hold more credibility than a self-confessed nationalistic ignorant soul slayer that has obviously slayed his own soul long time ago![sarcasm].



"Put up or Shut up" - Bwahahahah!!!

[edit on 18-12-2008 by Jinni]

Hardly an impartial source...

130.94.183.89...

Beginning in 1989-90, civil disturbances erupted on a large scale in Kashmir, illegally siezed by India in 1947. After dispatching several human rights monitors to conduct a long-term investigation, Ms. Parker wrote a legal analysis on The Situation in Kashmir, published by the U.N. Subcommission. This was the first time the issue of Kashmir had been raised internationally in nearly twenty years. She presented several briefing papers and statements to the commission in the years following, and met with then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan to discuss pertinent legal issues.

Having a JD doesn't necessarily confer supreme reliability. She is clearly on the Pakistani side of things... why else would she meet Bhutto instead of Indian leaders to dicuss the Kashmir issue?

Her accounts are ridiculous and unbelievable. I know that armies always commit attrocities, and I have no doubt that some Indian troops are behaving poorly (by abusing the locals), but some of the accounts seem ridiculous. e.g. why would the Indian army attack hospitals?!

Don't forget that the UN is dominated by the USA, and the USA firmly backed Pakistan during the period that the paper was written. Not all reports are accurate...

There are numerous news reports of the situation of "genocide" in other places such as palestine, zimbabwe etc.

If supposedly hundreds of thousands are being murdered, raped and brutalised by the Indian army, dont you think that would make the news?