What Does Baptism of The Holy Spirit Mean?

DOES BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES YOU THE GIFT OF TONGUES?

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a definite experience in the sense that it is a supernatural operation which God effects at a definite time. It is not a gradual growth or natural development in piety or spiritual power. It is as definite as the experience of conversion, and one may be equally certain that he has received it.

To receive the Holy Spirit is to receive his power and working. Is proof of one receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit the gift of tongues? If you do not have the gift of tongues can you be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas.


Peace to all,
Grandma

The Holy Spirit is the one who talks in different tongues, not the people. So the Holy Spirit will speak to the person in the language they understand.

When you receive the holy spirit, it doesn't give you "power", it gives you understanding so that you can know how to do right. In a way that is uplifting and powerful, but it's not a physical power or physical reward. However, with knowledge and understanding you can make better choices which are rewarding in themselves.

The Holy Spirit is the most obscure and difficult concepts to grasp in Catholicism. It is apparently a state of gnosis, and a connection with some external entity or force. The church is a little vague on it, though, since Christianity had a hard time getting rid of those annoying gnostics in the first place. A "demon" perhaps, that allows an individual access to a higher state of knowledge and consciousness? The Christians were all about demons when they first started out.

I tend to think that there's more, perhaps "secret," information about the Holy Spirit available to those seeking to be priests. Otherwise, it's completely confusing, and yet another one of those phrases people parrot that have to do with concepts they don't understand at all.

reply to post by badmedia


badmedia:

The work effected in us by the baptism of the Spirit or the subjective results are especially entire cleansing from depravity, comfort, guidance, and teaching.

"He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Matt. 3:11) Fire in this place implies the idea of refining, cleansing, and consuming. As impurities are separated from metals by a process of fire, so in the baptism with the Holy Spirit a perfect cleansing is effected. When the holy Son of God received the Holy Spirit is was in the form of a peaceful dove. But when the apostles, who were defiled with depraved natures, were baptized with the Holy Spirit he appeared as "cloven tongues like as of fire" (Acts 2:3) No outward manifestation could better represent the idea of cleansing at the time of the Holy Spirit baptism than does this fiery symbol of his presence.

The objective results of the baptism of the Spirit, or his work through us, consists principally in his enduing us with gifts and power for service in the kingdom of God. Various lists of these gifts are given in the Pauline epistles. The longest list is found in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11,28-30. Nine are there named as follows: wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues, and interpretation of tongues. In Romans 12:6-8 seven are named: prophecy, ministering, teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling, and showing mercy. In Ephesians 4:7-12 is a third list of gifted persons as follows: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. In these three lists eighteen different gifts are named. Evidently none of these lists is exhaustive, and there is good reason to believe that all taken together do not include ALL the gifts of the Spirit, either possible or actual.

I believe while it is true that all do not have the same gifts, not all the gifts, it is also true that every member of the body of Christ possesses at least one gift. "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal" (1 Cor. 12:7)

If one receives a gift when baptized with the Holy Spirit, may he later receive other gifts?



Peace,
Grandma

Why don't you ask a minister or a priest? Asking the semi-literates around here will not help.

reply to post by badmedia


I agree with both the OP and badmedia, although I agree with them both on seperate issues.

The OP is right that it is a definate experience that is hard to describe. In fact, the only way I knew what it was was because when it happened, I FREAKED OUT and had to call trusted friends who walk close with G-d! It happened not long after I made the declaration (out loud) that I didn't know anything, I didn't know the truth, and that regardless of what anyone else says the truth is, if there was a higher power, I wanted to know Him and HE ALONE would have to prove it to me, although I didn't know how that would happen. Until then, I will continue seeking, blah blah blah.

It wasn't long after that, I had put the boys in bed and was reading when literally, something in the back of my neck snapped (right below where the skull curves) and it SHOULD HAVE been painful for the noise and force of it, but it wasn't... it sent physical "shock waves" that I can't explain through head and the upper part of my body. I felt dizzy and was scared because I didn't know WHAT had happened. I went to stand up but my legs were not going to support anything. I sat there thinking I was having a nervous breakdown and I was about to die (though I felt no pain at all).

Everything FELT different (sensory wise). suddenly, I was very aware of things around me though I couldn't see them... I just KNEW they were there. I did my best to get to the phone and called a couple I know who are very close with G-d (as is evident by the fruit in their lives) and told them that I was having a SERIOUS nervous breakdown though I didn't know why I would be having one but that I thought I should get to the hospital because because it was physical and mental.

R (the wife) called for A (her husband and told him to get on the other phone) and then she began to ask me if I was experiencing A, B, C, D, etc. I was shocked because she was describing what I had and was experiencing. She said, "Darling, that is nothing to be afraid of. YOu have just received the power of the Holy Spirit." She kind of said it in a proud momma kind of tone haha..

I said I didn't like it and wanted it to stop. She then said, "you asked for it when you told Him you were going to seek Him and that you didn't care about anything else but getting to Him".. I had told no one of my plea to G-d. I had to stay on the phone with her for a good hour because, as she explained it best, when that comes over you, it is like being born into a whole new way of seeing and sensing things. IT was new to me.... almost like realizing you ARE in the dark and you are not alone but you can't see where the other things are. Or like a baby learning to take their first steps.

This newness of the world lasted for a while and then that is when I started seeing things and understanding things. It wasn't until later that I had my proof that this wAs G-d and that I was in HIs hands and on His path.

I don't speak in tongues (and in fact, don't believe the "speaking of tongues" the way the new age version is presented. It is not godly and is very much a demonic working in some cases and in others it is fake).. it is not biblical what is being practiced in churches.

I don't heal people.

I HAVE started seeing things as far as understanding things. I have occasionally felt changes in a room (sensory wise.. like the presense of something not good or the presense of something good). I have smelled a sweet fragrance a couple of times when I shouldn't have (meaning nothing or anyone around to bring on the smell), and I have become much more empathetic than I once was.

Also, I have been able to speak straight to a person and hit on something they needed to know or answer a question they have had that I didn't know they asked. There really is nothing supernatural about it. The only thing of major note is how weird the initial experience was, though it was not like the jerking around and saying weird things kind of thing that you see in churches.

It has simply changed how I perceive things, how they come to me, and it has elevated things already in me or a part of me. It is not meant as a "tool" to better oneself or glorify oneself. It is like being able to see the path before you to get to the One you belong to.



[edit on 12-12-2008 by justamomma]

Although their are fellow believers that do "speak in tongues" other Christians believe the gifts such as healing, speaking in tongues, raising from the dead are signs that are no longer present or needed(we have the bible). The tongues and gift that is occuring today is something other than is discussed Acts 2:4. In those cases people heard their own language not some "language of angels". In fact, speaking of tongues as occurs today is not unique only in certain Christian churches..that should raise questions. Paul says.."If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course [one at a time]; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church ...1 Corinthians 14:27-28..this is not the way it occurs in today's charismatic churches. I know of a case of a man reciting the Lord's Prayer in Greek at one church. Someone stood and gave a completely different interpretation.
Paul also says "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." In other words such actions do not build up the body of the local church. It is better to read/teach the bible than to seek some supernatural experience.

1 Corinthians 14:4

reply to post by justamomma


justamomma:

Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. Yes, it is truly and adventure.

As you, I was a believer in God but not really a follower. I was going to church but really not getting satisfaction for my spirit. I was also asking God to show himself to me. And then one day I was cleaning my kitchen when I had this overwhelming feeling of being in the presence of someone holy. I right away fell down on my knees and couldn't stop from crying, sobbing so hard I was shaking. I remember, telling him out loud; "O.K., O.K., I'm not going to fight you anymore. Here I am. I surrender, here I am. It was like someone reached down and lifted up my head and wiped away my tears and put the most beautiful ans sweetest spirit withing my heart. That was 32 years ago and that same Spirit is still there today. He has taught me many truths over our time together and has helped me grow in spiritual knowledge and wisdom. I believe my main gift the Holy Spirit has given me is the gift of faith and that of teaching.

It is truly one of the greatest stories ever told. And every Christian has one.


Peace to you,
Grandma

Am I correct in interpreting these passages as saying that the Holy Ghost is comprised of 7 other ghosts?

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised"

Revelations 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Originally posted by Grandma
"He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Matt. 3:11) Fire in this place implies the idea of refining, cleansing, and consuming. As impurities are separated from metals by a process of fire, so in the baptism with the Holy Spirit a perfect cleansing is effected. When the holy Son of God received the Holy Spirit is was in the form of a peaceful dove. But when the apostles, who were defiled with depraved natures, were baptized with the Holy Spirit he appeared as "cloven tongues like as of fire" (Acts 2:3) No outward manifestation could better represent the idea of cleansing at the time of the Holy Spirit baptism than does this fiery symbol of his presence.

You have a very keen perception, Grandma. The "fire" is indeed the Alchemical fire of purification represented by the Phoenix.



First Epistle of Clement of Rome

2 There is a certain bird called a Phoenix; of this there is never but one at a time: and that lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near, that it must die, it makes itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices into which when its time is fulfilled it enters and dies.
3 But its flesh putrifying, breeds a certain worm, which being nourished with the juice of the dead bird brings forth feathers; and when it is grown to a perfect state, it takes up the nest in which the bones of its parent lie, and carries it from Arabia into Egypt, to a city called Heliopolis:
4 And flying in open day in the sight of all men, lays it upon the altar of the sun, and so returns from whence it came.
5 The priests then search into the records of the time: and find that it returned precisely at the end of five hundred years.
6 And shall we then think it to be any very great and strange thing for the Lord of all to raise up those that religiously serve him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird he shows us the greatness of his power to fulfil his promise?

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Eleleth]

reply to post by Eleleth


Hey! That's pretty cool. Another has posted a new thread about the kundalini and chakras that your post would fit in nicely with too.

What you posted about the phoenix, wouldn't that be more appropriately the baptism that Jesus went through rather than the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

I'm referring to these verses:

But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"

They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. Mark 10:38-39

There's so many baptisms! Repentance, Holy Spirit, fire, crucifixion... initiations each.

I think your first post in Luke is the giving of the Holy Spirit to enable the disciples to do the work they needed to do. I believe we are talking about one Holy Spirit and several gifts in this Scripture.

In Revelations that is a little more tricky. Let me explain my take on it and I am sure someone else will have a totally different view.

First it is God who is talking to John, greeting him. The reason I believe this is because in verse 5 Jesus gives his greeting separate from the first.

Now, about the 7 spirits of God. These are also found in Isaiah 11:2

(1) spirit of the Lord; (2) wisdom; (3) understanding; (4) counsel; (5) might; (6) knowledge; and (7) fear of the Lord

Again, I do not see these as 7 different Holy Spirits but as 7 aspects of the Holy Spirit.

I know it can get confusing and I do not profess to know all the answers and would appreciate any help from anyone who might see this in a different way or explain it better than I did.

Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by Eleleth


Eleleth:

Thank you so much for sharing about the phoenix. I had read about this many years ago. I appreciate very much you refreshing my memory.


Peace,
Grandma

Force is Knowledge.
How force affects matter? Not through procedure, but because it Knows How.
If you have the force, you have the knowledge. This helps you to acquire more force by getting rid of delusions: emotions and ideas, because then more force is freed from form.
The really good thing is that you can never again be in denial of knowledge once you have been "baptized by the holy spirit". It becomes your nature, your experience and will never let you down.

Originally posted by Grandma
The work effected in us by the baptism of the Spirit or the subjective results are especially entire cleansing from depravity, comfort, guidance, and teaching.

"He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Matt. 3:11) Fire in this place implies the idea of refining, cleansing, and consuming. As impurities are separated from metals by a process of fire, so in the baptism with the Holy Spirit a perfect cleansing is effected. When the holy Son of God received the Holy Spirit is was in the form of a peaceful dove. But when the apostles, who were defiled with depraved natures, were baptized with the Holy Spirit he appeared as "cloven tongues like as of fire" (Acts 2:3) No outward manifestation could better represent the idea of cleansing at the time of the Holy Spirit baptism than does this fiery symbol of his presence.

The objective results of the baptism of the Spirit, or his work through us, consists principally in his enduing us with gifts and power for service in the kingdom of God. Various lists of these gifts are given in the Pauline epistles. The longest list is found in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11,28-30. Nine are there named as follows: wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues, and interpretation of tongues. In Romans 12:6-8 seven are named: prophecy, ministering, teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling, and showing mercy. In Ephesians 4:7-12 is a third list of gifted persons as follows: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. In these three lists eighteen different gifts are named. Evidently none of these lists is exhaustive, and there is good reason to believe that all taken together do not include ALL the gifts of the Spirit, either possible or actual.

I believe while it is true that all do not have the same gifts, not all the gifts, it is also true that every member of the body of Christ possesses at least one gift. "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal" (1 Cor. 12:7)

If one receives a gift when baptized with the Holy Spirit, may he later receive other gifts?

Peace,
Grandma

I'm not a believer in Paul, so I don't take what he says as direct fact. And I can't say for definite proof that it's not real, but I am pretty sure it is talking about speaking other human languages with people, or that the spirit will speak to you in your tongue.

"What is your native tongue" people say for example, so it is for sure to speak another language. And yet, they just call it speaking "in tongue", as if "tongue" is the language they are speaking. But the entire concept of someone speaking up out of now where, and then another person saying what it means is just pointless. Why wouldn't the spirit do this and for what purpose? If the spirit wanted to just speak to people, then they would just get that message directly, or in a language they can understand.

And doesn't this just happen within certain kinds of churches, and yet others don't seem to include it at all. I went to many different kinds of churches growing up(in alabama btw), and it's only something I seen like once, and the people were rushing up and down the aisle and so on.

As the Holy Spirit is to help spread the gospel as you say, then being able to speak in a foreign language to other people seems much more useful, and also helps in giving understanding.

So I won't says it's just flat out wrong, just that I have no experience of doing it personally, and see no logical purpose for speaking out loud in church in an unknown language, nor do I see how it is a true gift to do so.

reply to post by badmedia


badmedia:

I don't have the gift of tongues and have never really felt the need to have this gift. I believe that tongues is the least important of all the gifts the Holy Spirit could bestow upon us.

I had a friend though who kept insisting that I was not properly baptized in the Holy Spirit if I did not have a "prayer language" as she put it. It really seemed to upset her so much that this was of no importance to me. I told her that God could hear my prayer just fine. And my spirit could pray for me to his spirit and I would be able to tell him what was on my heart and he would in turn feel it upon his spirit. Never did make any sense to her. even to this day.


Just some thoughts,
Grandma

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Hey! That's pretty cool. Another has posted a new thread about the kundalini and chakras that your post would fit in nicely with too.

What you posted about the phoenix, wouldn't that be more appropriately the baptism that Jesus went through rather than the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
...
There's so many baptisms! Repentance, Holy Spirit, fire, crucifixion... initiations each.

Good question. 1 Corinthians 15:45-50 of Paul (maligned as he is around these parts) may give us a clue:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Essentially, what he seems to be saying that we are each born with a living soul which is "of the earth;" and through being "born again," we can "bear the image of the heavenly." This is a very Gnostic concept, but it's all right there in the Bible.

The first baptism, of water, then, symbolizes birth from the womb. This is the Lesser Mystery performed by the Hierophant John the Baptist:

(46) Jesus said, "Among those born of women, from Adam until John the Baptist, there is no one so superior to John the Baptist that his eyes should not be lowered (before him). Yet I have said, whichever one of you comes to be a child will be acquainted with the kingdom and will become superior to John."

Now, the Gospel of Philip lays out that the first baptism, of "water," pertains to the soul only, but the second baptism, of fire, is the spiritual "rebirth from above." And the "chrism" comes from the Tree of Life (the spine?), the olive tree in the Garden of Eden (the brain, according to the Naassenes). And it is from the "chrism" that one becomes "Christ."

It is from water and fire that the soul and the spirit came into being. It is from water and fire and light that the son of the bridal chamber (came into being). The fire is the chrism, the light is the fire. I am not referring to that fire which has no form, but to the other fire whose form is white, which is bright and beautiful, and which gives beauty.

The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit.

Now, what exactly is this the true baptism of fire, the rebirth from above? I'm not sure. It's possible that this knowledge has been lost, if anyone ever knew for sure.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Eleleth]

reply to post by Grandma


My wife's family is pentecostal, and we were having this argument 2 seconds before you posted this thread. She thinks it's real and talks about her Grandmother praying in tongue. But says she never did it. She believes in it because of her family, and there is nothing I can say that would make her change her mind. She also can not give me a logical need for it.

As for prayer tongue, I thought prayer is something you said on the inside, not out loud. I don't "pray" in the traditional way, as in asking for things to happen, or praying for people - I think god already knows what I need and don't, but for me to "pray" is for me to think about questions and look for answers.

I see the holy ghost as that which brings comfort through understanding. You mention the 9 gifts, but IMO that is just 1 gift - wisdom, of which the other gifts are either part of(such as knowledge), or the result of.

Of course, this is not going to have any effect on your friend.

reply to post by Eleleth


Eleleth,

Thank you for getting back to me on this.

I equate the baptism of fire with the baptism that Jesus spoke of having to be baptized into and that we, when we are able, will also be baptized into.

It is, I think, the same thing as "being crucified into Christ" (as our maligned apostle described it ) and is different than receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Have you heard of the dark night of the soul? It precedes this occurrence, which is then followed by resurrection (hopefully) and ascension.

Stages, all these stages... blessings, benefits and trials within each and all for our best good.

I spoke in tongues ONE TIME >.


I recieved the Holy Spirit in my bed one night as I slept ..I remember it very vividly ...(I was afraid of getting it because I had been in some pentecostal churchs and they scared me ..most of theirs were fake too and I could feel it when I was with them ) so I asked the Lord one night praying hard that he would show me that I really do have the Holy Spirit ..since I had been to a few pentecostal churchs and they said I could not be saved if I did not have the evidence of speaking in tongues ...I almost believed them ...they prayed several times for me to recieve it and it just did not happen...I knew I had some of the Holy Spirit when I was saved (I felt it ) but not the complete infilling like at Pentecost ..thats what I wanted ..
Anyway ....the Lord came to me in my sleep since I was so afraid ..I didnt want to be a fake like the others seemed to be ........so ...that night ...some strange things happened prior to this like I saw my future husband (before I met him and was shown he would be evil ) .....that man was reaching for my hand and I was going to reach out to take his .then as I tried to reach out some energy force went from my head to my feet ...(like a full body suit was being put on me ) IT FELT SO AWESOME ...and I could not reach out then ...I had a protective shield all over me .....I could feel it all the way down to my feet ....it was such a great light and energy that it lit up my trailer I was living in ..all the lights and the heater and the radio came on .and the TV ...everything came on ...(For real ) and my trailer was unplugged ..I had tripped over it before I went to bed and just left it ..so there was no way the electricity could be on ....
The radio and TV sounds woke me up ...and I woke up speaking in tongues ...it was strange ..but I was so happy .....and I was never the same person after that ...I walked around like I was floating on a cloud ..(so spiritual feeling that I could not even come back down to earth for about six months ) ..then I calmed down some .(the world sort of brings you back down to reality somewhat ) otherwise I would have floated right out of this body then ..
I went outside as soon as this all happened and checked my electrical plug and it was still UNPLUGGED >..

It changed my life this time for GOOD ....

I have not ever spoken in tongues since ..but I know I have the Holy Spirit .no doubt in my mind ...it convicts me and purifies me and talks within me daily .....communing with my spirit ..I LOVE THE LORD SO MUCH ...I want him in me always ...............................


I know that some believers think this dont happen anymore in our times ..but I disagree because I can testify that it does .............


[edit on 12-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Simplynoone]