Holiday Skirmish: titorite vs wormwood13: Madison Avenue: Stop Mixing The Metaphors!

The topic for this debate is “Madison Avenue: “Christmas Advertising And Decorating Should Not Start Until After Thanksgiving.”

titorite will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
wormwood13 will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

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Any character count in excess of 10,000 will be deleted prior to the judging process.

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Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

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Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

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Each debate must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extension of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extension begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extension request.

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Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.

Opening statement

I shall be arguing the topic of “Madison Avenue: Christmas Advertising And Decorating Should Not Start Until After Thanksgiving” from the pro position.

Thanksgiving is an American tradition. We celebrate the idea like no other country. It is a time of year when families come together. Corporations have a tendency to forget that in favor profits.

And thats just wrong.


The next Holiday after Halloween is not Christmas, it is Thanksgiving.

I now leave the floor to my opponent Wormwood13.

Good Luck to all!

"It's the most wonderful time of the year."
I will be arguing against two points in this skirmish,
1) That Christmas advertising should not start earlier than Thanksgiving.
2) That Decorations should also wait, at least until we've finished our Thanksgiving feast.
I feel that I really need to tackle these topics seperately, as decoration is more an issue of the public, and advertising is more in the private sector.
I'll start with the deco. I'm fairly sure noone puts any lights up early unless that act makes them happy. Christmas is a time of togetherness for the entire village, town, or city. As different as we are as a people it seems that these differences can be put aside in light of Christmas. Some people might want to feel that joy earlier than others. Some might be getting it out of the way before the real snowstorms start. Others may simpily like the look of the glowing colors adorning their homes. Regardless of why you may choose to decorate as early as Halloween it is your right to do so. You may not want to start on your tree till Christmas Eve., and that is also your right.
"Judge not lest ye be judged."
Secondly the advertising. As a matter of buisness it really comes to one thing. Is there enough buyers to justify the opportunity cost? Of course there is. Christmas sales are the bread and butter. If more people were'nt buying earlier, then they would'nt be advertising earlier. Adverising is a buisness and the buisness is making money.
I will now hand the mike back to my esteemed colleague.

Thank you Wormwood13.

Christmas is a very special holiday to be certain and it is a huge money maker in the business world. It is the business world that has cheapened the spirit of the holiday by making it a year around thing. When Christmas starts in July people tend to grow tired of it by August and when December finally does come around the reason for the season is soured by the constant commercialization of the holiday.

Yes as U.S. citizens we have the right advertise when we like and decorate when we like but this does not make it right. You would not wear white after labor day would you? You do not give candy to trick or treaters on October 30th Correct? Actions of the afore mentioned break tradition. If we are not going to keep in tradition then why even celebrate the holidays? Just because you are at liberty to do something does not mean you should do it.

Questions:

Question one: Is it in good taste to to leave you holiday decorations up all year?

Question two: How many patriotic advertisements do you see around Christmas time?

Question three: Would you give candy canes to trick or treaters?

'I've grown a little colder,
grown a little sadder,
grown a little older,
and I need angel sitting on my shoulder,
need a little christmas right now.' Elvis words by Red West

Are you suggesting that the buisness world has the power to diminish spirit? They are only selling what people want. Despite a dwindling economy Christmas sales are at an all time high, pulling companies out of the red. The smaller buisnesses often rely on these sales to stay afloat. Supply and demand has nothing to do with spirit.

If we could start a season of giving and cheer earlier, then should'nt we? What is right and what is wrong has always been a topic of great debate among our species. What tradition is, and always has been, is subject to change. Christmas originally was the birth of Christ. Thats it! No trees, or dancing nutcrackers, or Santa Claus! These were all added later as the tradition grew. A good many people probably thought the addition of the 'fat jolly old elf', was a disgrace to the original meaning, yet it flourished. Hell, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer was'nt added until 1939!

What I'm saying is that from that one day it has grown substantionly and continues to grow. Who is anyone to stop it, and how far will this Christmas thing spread? The unknown is always scary, but to act on these fears by impeeding the natural progression of this tradition is quite frankly impeeding change.

'Let it be...." Jonn Lennon

We are arguing these points as adults, but most of the point of Christmas is the children. Am I wrong? I've never heard of a little kid who did'nt like lights and decorations, no matter what month their in.

Question 3.)Would you give candy canes to trick-or-treaters?

Sure! I think kids are more interested in the sugar then the inner meaning of the sheppard's crook. Give candy without prejudice to its shape or color.

Question 2.) How many patriotic advertisements do you see around Christmas time?

Christmas is a holiday all over the world not just the U.S.. Patriotsm is about uniting the country. Christmas should be about uniting the world.
However I will direct you to www.patrioticchristmas.com, or simpily google patriotic Christmas for thousands of Christmas ads, where our troops and our country is involved. A good example of a patiotic Christmas song is 'Home for the Holidays', by Al Stillman and Robert Allen. This song gave hope for our troops over seas.

Question 3.) Is it in good taste to leave your holiday decorations up all year long?

If you use red lights they can work for Christmas, Halloween, and even the 4th of July. Who are we to decide what is in 'good taste', heck I have holes in my shoes...

Socratic Question 1.) How would they punish people who disobey the decoration deadlines?

Socratic Question 2.) What would be a convincing reason for denying children candy based on it's shape?

Socratic Question 3.) Should an effort be made to keep a season of hope, joy, and cheer from expanding? Why?/Why not?

I would like to also bring up the growing number of elderly people. Despite wanting to decorate their houses they cannot. They should absolutly be allowed to keep up their decorations year round without fear of ridicule, as should anyone. Would you really see Grandma on her ladder no earlier then the coldest time of the year? In some of the more extreme cold places 45 minutes in September is nothing, but December may just be too cold and icy to be crawling around your roof.

Let the elderly decorate early!


Your move sir.........

First to answer your questions:

Socratic Question 1.) How would they punish people who disobey the decoration deadlines?

They should not, whoever "they" may be. The issue at hand is not to forbid early advertising under punishment of law. The issue at hand is for retailers to regain the common decency they have cast aside in favor of profits.

Socratic Question 2.) What would be a convincing reason for denying children candy based on it's shape?

Well, if your looking for a valid shape based reason then I can assure I disapprove of cigarette shaped candy for kids. I would also never offer kids "adult" shaped candy. Closer to the topic at hand I would never give kids candy canes on Halloween for two reason. One it would be the wrong time of the year and two they would probably be candy canes left over from the previous year ... So I would choose fresh candy reflective of the season such as candy corns or taffy.


Socratic Question 3.) Should an effort be made to keep a season of hope, joy, and cheer from expanding? Why?/Why not?

As an atheist I personally wish that the season was confined to its relative days. Not everyone celebrates Christmas and therefore not everyone wants the season to expand to a year round celebration of ideas not shared by all.


Now I have to address something else you said earlier.

Despite a dwindling economy Christmas sales are at an all time high, pulling companies out of the red.

I, strongly beg to differ. Retailers nervous as Christmas traffic is poor

The current state of the economy has many a person in a sour holiday mood. Many a person still lacks the desire to admire Christmas decorations.
Regardless of the peoples moods holiday retailers are ever more eager to display Christmas in the hopes of making that ever important holiday green. Unfortunately the fear of alienating customers has made the merry part of Christmas into a PC Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings thus draining some of the genuine holiday spirit and washing it down into a sterile generalized well wishing of whatever your faith maybe so long as your willing to shop at the store with the biggest light display.

Now you suggest some people, the elderly, may have trouble putting up decorations and therefore and therefore they should be allowed to put them up early before the cold. I agree. More to the point I believe we should all go out of our way to offer assistance to those of extended ages that may need help putting up and taking down decorations. And if age as affected an elderly persons mind and you see them putting up Christmas decorations in July the right thing to do would be to inform them of the month and ask if it was their intention to decorate Christmas in July.


In todays fast paced, disposable, instant gratification, commercialized world it is a welcome reprieve to slow down and gather with family in the autumn. And as our attentions turn to the thoughts of holiday decorations people often ask "When is the right time to put up our decorations?". Many turn to the internet for just that answer. Link The majority of the answer found on the internet agree one two points. One: people should decorate when they feel it is appropriate. Two: that appropriate time is anytime after thanksgiving.

Question one: Why do you only see salvation army Santas outside ringing their bells after thanksgiving and not before?

Question two: How do you think those that can not afford nice decorations feel when they have to look at other peoples superior decorations earlier and earlier?

Question three: When did you put up your Christmas decorations last year?


I turn the floor over to you.

Your soul must be full of galic Mr. Grinch, for you are not thinking of the children!

I'll start with a happy little tale born from the advertising mind of Montgomery Ward. Of course I'm refering to Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. Since its creation it has spawned thousands of toys, movies, and collectables. This is a case of early Christmas advertising putting smiles on countless children's faces. Did some think that Rudolph went to far? Probably. However this timeless classic "will go down in history."

I've said it before and I'll say it again, will you please think of the children. How many times have you heard a child wishing it would be Christmas earlier? Just because we have grown older and more sour does not mean it is not still magical to the young formative mind. Christmas teaches the fundamentle aspects of being kind, and giving, yet my opponent would speak up against starting that earlier.

We always wish the good times would last longer. Now they can! We have the power to do this. We should alow this phenomenon to grow, like a snowball rolling down a steep incline. In light of all the recent tragedys, and the economic struggles, we need the hope and togetherness that the holiday season brings now more than ever!

Socratic Question 1.) Why were the Whos so happy at the end of How the Grinch Stole Christmas, despite the fact that all the decorations and presents were stolen?

On a different note the link my opponent took me to, regarding appropriate times to put up holiday decorations, did not show any right or wrong times to decorate, just when people put up their lights. I would acually like to quote a few people from your link.

Reply by TheScrappyMama on November 15, 2008 at 2:40pm
Last year I had a new tree and was so excited I put it up the weekend before Thanksgiving. I think I'll stay with that schedule! I love to sit at night with all the lights off and only the tree lit up. It's so comforting.

Reply by Krisann Blair on November 15, 2008 at 8:55pm
Our family actually starts all through the month of November so we can start celebrating and enjoying the holiday on the first Sunday of Advent.

Reply by Erin on November 15, 2008 at 9:06pm
Mind you our christmas lights have been on since November 1st.

Telling people when you put up lights, and telling them when it is appropriate to do so are two different things entirely. While the majority of people might decorate after Thanksgiving, ( which by the way falls in the middle of October in Canada,) That dose'nt mean that your inappropriate, or lacking common decency to stray from the heard. It simpily means you are different. Unique if you will.

Most people work nine to five shifts. Dose this mean it is inappropriate to start at seven? or ten? No! It is just different. We have always took pride in the diversity of our people and we should continue to embrace the envelope pushers, and unique people of our world.

Now On Dasher on Dancer on Comet and on to your other link.

Retailers nervous as Christmas traffic is poor

This article anticipates final sales reports, and what may be. It in no way provides any facts to support the claim of sales being down for actual sales reports try,

www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=2604

Black Friday saw $534 million in online spending, up 1 percent. For the combination of Thanksgiving Day and Black Friday, online sales were up 2 percent relative to last year.

Could this be due to an earlier ad campaign?

Socratic Question 2.)Do you think having the biggest light display helps or hinders a stores buisness?
Socratic follow up to question 2.) Why do you think they would decorate early if it did not boost sales?

'Now you suggest some people, the elderly, may have trouble putting up decorations and therefore and therefore they should be allowed to put them up early before the cold. I agree. '

As do I, although I had thought I was arguing this side.

To answer question 2.)

2.)How do you think those that can not afford nice decorations feel when they have to look at other peoples superior decorations earlier and earlier?

Well I hope not resentful. I'd hope people would have more constructive things to fill their days with then worrying about what other people are doing with there lights. Remember envy is a deadly sin for a reason.

Others have tried to stand in the way of the of this ever expanding holiday season. One Oliver Cromwell and his puritan forces tried, in vain to rid the world of the decadence of Christmas. There was even a period from 1659-1681 when the celebration of Christmas was banned in Boston. Lawbreakers were fined five shillings for decorating! This attempt was also, a failure. If Christmas is outlawed, only outlaws will have Xmas!

It boils down to a basic fundamental issue, freedom to express your religion. If we go around telling people they are doing wrong, and that they should adhere to what the majority is doing, or they lack common decency then we are no better then the selfrighteous forces of the past.

To answer question 3.)When did you put up your Christmas decorations last year?

I put them up as I take down my Halloween decoration. I figure its not too cold yet, and I'm already up there.

To answer your Socratic Question 1.) Why do you only see salvation army santas out side ringing their bells after Thanksgiving and not before?

An intersting question, after researching the Salvation Army http//www.salvationarmy.org I have found that they in fact do start earlier than Thanksgiving. The sooner they can start collecting for the needy the better.

Ringing the Bells

Beginning in mid-November until Christmas, The Salvation Army personnel can be seen staffing the Red Kettle in front of local establishments, collecting bills and pocket change that will help us with holiday assistance and serve people's needs well into the new year.

I implore my opponent to stop yellowing the snow. Noone will not eat it!

Happy impending Saturnalia!

Why so serious?

To answer my opponents questions first:

Answer to question 1. Why were the Whos so happy at the end of How the Grinch Stole Christmas, despite the fact that all the decorations and presents were stolen?

Because the fairytale called for that kind of ending. The Grinch was a work of fiction and while I understand the answer you might tell to children might involve something along the lines of having each other, in reality if a burglar broke into your home and stole every possession you owned I believe you would not share the feelings of the Whos.

Answer to question 2 Do you think having the biggest light display helps or hinders a stores business?

I think light displays help businesses. I just think it is tacky to put up light displays before thanksgiving.

Answer to Socratic follow up to question 2 (Question 3?) Why do you think they would decorate early if it did not boost sales?

I would think that they would decorate for themselves. I know when I worked and decorated at MG building supply store we decorated just for the sake of being festive. Our decorations went up after thanksgiving.

Now you bring up the age old argument " think of the children" and I must say that I am thinking of the children. Instead of a three month mush of holiday advertising and tasteless decoration I prefer to teach the children about each individual holiday and each in its own month. For example Christmas has its roots in paganism. It's true. Halloween is also of pagan origin. Only Thanksgiving is the odd one out, that can trace its roots to Americas colonial days. Today it has evolved into a feast of remembrance, sharing, and gratitude. I think we can agree that these are lessons every child should be taught.

You brought up Rudolph, and I immediately think of Santa and coke a cola. Both corporate inventions meant to do one thing, sell more junk. And no long term thought was put into glorifying a fat old man trying to get kids to sit on his lap and whisper into his ear. Then their is the dissolution of of the heart as kids become grown ups and realize that their parents have lied to them for years and that their is no such thing as Rudolph or Santa. In my mind it would be better never to lie to them in the first place.

Now, when you mention our agreement about allowing the elderly to put up decorations before the cold I went on to say that we should all go out of our way to help the elderly. We should not all go out of our way to help corporations decorate early.

Question time.

Question one: Can you provide a more direct link about the Salvation Army Christmas kettle campaign?

I looked on their website but I could not find mention about when the Santas come out to ring their bells.

Question two: Would you agree, that too much of a good thing a bad thing?

Question three: Do you believe corporate inventions such as Rudolph and Santa provide any spiritual fulfillment or enlightenment?

I await your thoughtful reply.

I would like to invoke my extention as I will not be around a computer until tomorrow afternoon, I will post then. Thank you.

Question one: Can you provide a more direct link about the Salvation Army Christmas kettle campaign?

Try www.use.salvationarmy.org/manchester

Question two: Would you agree, that too much of a good thing a bad thing?

Too much of a good thing might be a bad thing, but how much is too much?

Question three: Do you believe corporate inventions such as Rudolph and Santa provide any spiritual fulfillment or enlightenment?

I don't believe Santa is a corporate invention www.thehistorychannel.com/historyofchristmas so I will just say this. Rudolph absolutely provides enlightenment! Have'nt you ever seen a kid smiling and singing along to Rudolph?

Just because these symbols are used to sell products, dose'nt mean that they are not essentially good, moral images. We can all relate to many of their plights. They invoke within a number of people a feeling that is not only good and moral, but nessecary

There are significantly more people living outside the United States that do not celebrate Thanksgiving. For them the next holiday after Halloween is Christmas, or Chaunukah, or the winter solstice. Should the rest of the world have to hold off on their decorations until America's Thanksgiving is over?

Now you are attacking Christmas almost as your main arguement. I would like to call attention to the fact that this debate has nothing to do with the credability of one Santa Claus, or even Jesus. The debate question is as follows-

“Christmas Advertising And Decorating Should Not Start Until After Thanksgiving.”

Whether or not the validity of Christmas is generally excepted is not our topic.

People who do celebrate this holiday care about it very deeply. If they want to show their spirit earlier then Thanksgiving then they should be allowed to do so. Look, unless someone stands to get hurt, physically, or financially, then there exists no reason to tell them they are wrong, or tacky.

"Don't worry. Be happy!" Bobby Mcferrin

On another note our old friend Sinter Klass is not the young buck saint he used to be. Now couple that with the fact that there are billions of more children on his route and you can clearly see more time is needed to prepare the toys, and to verify any nice/naughty lists. Mr. Kringle may need to be among us earlier then Thanksgiving to meet the demands, and to make sure Christmas gos off without a hitch. Do you know of a suitable replacement with the following qualifications-

Immortality?

Faster then light-speed travel?

Ability to fly reindeer?

Shape-shifting? ( To fit down some chimneys)

Elf leadership skills?

Etc.

If you can't thing of anyone that fits that bill than prehaps we should alow saint nick the extra time. It would be appreciated I'm sure.

Do not punish or ridicule those that would go against the grain.

Incorrect statement- You should not decorate until after Thanksgiving.

Correct statement- I do not decorate until after Thanksgiving. You can start decorating whenever you want.

Do not tell people what they should or should'nt do when it comes to personal matters. Let them decide for themselves what makes them happy. Let them live their own lives.

Closing Statements

Christmas is a most wonderful time of the year. However, too much of anything is a bad thing. I have even heard of folks wanting to sue for mental distress for having to listen to Christmas music for two months strait eight hours a day. I, believe their is a time and a place for everything and the time to decorate and advertise for Christmas is after Thanksgiving.

As corporations have grown and capitalized on the season , the exploitation of the holiday has taken some of the merry mirth out of it all. What was once the celebration of winter and the birth of Jesus has turned into a consumer frenzy of spending. This is not an attack on Christmas but rather a rebellion against the corporate exploitation of the season.

I would like to take this time to thank Semper and memory for setting this whole thing up, My esteemed opponent wormwood for providing me with a wonderful debate and you the reader for taking the time to appreciate our debate.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Closing Arguements.

Wow! I was hoping our holiday skirmish would never end.

I would like to keep my closing arguement short and sweet.

No matter what your personal opinion is I think we can all agree that how anyone chooses to celebrate their Christmas is their right. My opponent would make it his buisness, ignoring any constitutional rights people might have.

I believe that our readers will do the right thing in light of this debate.

I would like to thank all of those who took part in this holiday skirmish, my opponent titorite for his insightful debate and for taking my debate virginity. Santa Claus, for not getting too mad at titorite, and to all our readers for enduring this interesting topic.
' Have yourself a merry little Christmas" However it is you choose to do so......
Respectfully yours wormwood13

Give the people "Panem et Circenses"..........

Congrats to both Fighters on an enjoyable read...and now the judges comments.

Titorite

Opening was far too short and without direction

First Post again short and without direction.

Found his debate to be too clinical for a “Holiday Debate”

Wormwood13
While WW13’s opening was also very minimal he did at least give us the direction he was going to go.

First post actually got into the subject matter pretty well especially with the candy references.

Let the elderly decorate early!

CLASSIC

Cutting to the chase:

I enjoyed reading Wormwoods debate as I feel he got “into the spirit” more than titorite. Inserting humor and fantasy to illustrate points very effectively.

I especially enjoyed his last post. Not the closing so much but his last reply.

Win to Wormwood13

While I personally wish I could say otherwise because, in my opinion, the “Christmas season” now drags on forever, I must award the win for this debate to wormwood13. Once the issue of peoples’ freedom to decorate when and how they choose, and the right of businesses to run their business as they see fit is brought up, this major point is not successfully refuted by titorite.

Good points are made by both fighters, and titorite’s “traditional” argument was compelling, but wormwood13 made an effective rebuttal that traditions continually grow and change.

Good fun, guys, thanks for the entertainment.

Winner is wormwood13. Again, Congrats to both...

[edit on 5-1-2009 by MemoryShock]

Thank you judges for taking the time to go over our little Christmas skirmish, and thanks once more to my opponent titorite, and of course all of you readers.....I hope to see you all soon in future debates..
Happy New Years....I'd better go take down my lights.....